You have just entered room "JuanCo1 Chat12."
Snafaru has entered the room.
Snafaru: Hi
Snafaru: I am amazed I got in!
JuanCo1: Hey there
JuanCo1: You are the first to arrive
JuanCo1: i sent inviytes, but I asume that everyone else is going to wait
until 8pm
JuanCo1: And thier invites just expired...
RodgerThorm has entered the room.
RodgerThorm: hello
JuanCo1: Welcome!
JFRAUCHERT has entered the room.
JuanCo1: hey JohnR
RodgerThorm: Was just out taking a walk with the wife
JFRAUCHERT: Hello all
JuanCo1: Now we are just waiting for Todd
RodgerThorm: I almost forgot about this
JuanCo1: I am glad you remembered
RodgerThorm: (We're in the final stretch, but not quite there yet; I think it
might be tomorrow, though)
JuanCo1: that is pretty exciting!
JFRAUCHERT: As long as you hold off for the next couple of hours
Snafaru: My son is now 5 weeks old, you'll see Rodger this baby thing is
quite amazing.
RodgerThorm: 'scuse me for a minute; I'm gonna go open a window to
chat at dq-rules
RodgerThorm: Wow, Snafaru! I didn't realize you were that close to it
yourself. I thought he was more like 5 months
JuanCo1: I have invited Tood Schreiber, Snafaru, Rodger and JohnR.
JohnK could not make it
JuanCo1: There is an 'Nsnyc chat going on right now if anyone is
interested
JuanCo1: ;-)
RodgerThorm: Do we need to worry about this getting crashed by
newbies and outsiders, or is it private and invitation only?
JFRAUCHERT: I think this is a private chat space
RodgerThorm: We've had problems with looking tempting to trollers,
before
JuanCo1: They need to be invited
RodgerThorm: OK, that's good
JFRAUCHERT: How was everybody's day, personally I woke up to 4
inches of snow here in Calgary, Alberta, Canada
JuanCo1: Well should we start without Todd?
JuanCo1: I woke up to 50 and sunny in Ann Arbor Michigan (OK I woke
up a t 10am)
RodgerThorm: I think we can get started and bring him up to speed when
he shows
JFRAUCHERT: ok
JuanCo1: How do you like Ann Arbor so far Rodger?
Snafaru: Almost no snow left here around Ottawa.
RodgerThorm: Nice enough to go for a walk this evening; I'm SOOO
glad to be back in A2
JuanCo1: Johnr, you and Snafaru, and JohnK all live in Canada?
RodgerThorm: Chicago was nice, but for whatever reason, Ann Arbor
feels more like home
JFRAUCHERT: Yup
RodgerThorm: Yeah, Canada's the big DQ contingent
RodgerThorm: And JohnK and Snafaru are both in Ottawa
Snafaru: yep
JFRAUCHERT: At least this side of the Equator
RodgerThorm: (have you two ever met in person, Snaf?)
JuanCo1: Do you guys know eahc other outside of the net?
Snafaru: nope
RodgerThorm: JohnC and I are planning to meet FtF once my life settles
down a bit, maybe a week or two
JuanCo1: Do any of you know todd? maybe he does not understand that
he is being invited to the DQ chat
RodgerThorm: We almost met at U*Con last fall
JuanCo1: Yeah... Maybe you cna run that game another time
RodgerThorm: Todd might have the computer on but be AFK right now
JuanCo1: There are some other DQers in the area, I have chatted with
them but never metr them
Snafaru: maybe sending him an e-mail...
JuanCo1: and then there is Dean Martel
RodgerThorm: (AFK = Away From Keyboard)
RodgerThorm: I know Dean in passing; I don't know if he'd remember
me or not
JuanCo1: I will send his invite every ten minutes til he shows up or tells me
to get lost
JuanCo1: He sold me my DQ hard cover when I was but a lad
RodgerThorm: Ever game with Dean?
RodgerThorm: Okay, my proposed agenda for tonight was as follows:
JuanCo1: No, he was a major gaming force in this town. If you played
games, you knew who he was
Snafaru: I just sent Todd an e-mail.
JuanCo1: A bit older than me, ran in differtent crowds
RodgerThorm: 1. Goals and intent of the group2. Organization of the
group3. Timeline for activities and target deadlines4. Opengaming ORG
and the DQ OS project
JuanCo1: Let's start with the tough one Goals
RodgerThorm: (wellp... so much for carrying format into this...)
RodgerThorm: I was going to ask first if anyone had any changes or additions to the list
JuanCo1: Did you want to talk aobut the Wizards thing JohnR
RodgerThorm: But yeah, that's why I put it at the top
JuanCo1: lol
JFRAUCHERT: I will when the time comes
JuanCo1: poddy break brb
RodgerThorm: Anyone else have suggestions for the agenda, or shall we begin?
JFRAUCHERT: none from me
RodgerThorm: Snafaru?
JuanCo1: I am back lead the way
Snafaru: nothing to add
RodgerThorm: Okay, then...
JuanCo1: nice work btw Snafaru
Snafaru: tx
RodgerThorm: Item one: GOALS
RodgerThorm: What are they?
JuanCo1: Shall we take turns?
RodgerThorm: Should we just back and forth this, or should we each give our own visions to start?
Snafaru: To provide and improve DQ gaming tools for all DQ players and gms.
RodgerThorm: In the short term, I think it is to support and expand on the DQ rules
JuanCo1: To provide a supplement to the existing DQ rules that contains clarifications, and expansions to DQ
JFRAUCHERT: I agree with Rodger
RodgerThorm: In the long term, it may become a whole thing in its own right (ie the core rules, and taking the whole DQ system OS)
JuanCo1: Could you elabotate on " and taking the whole DQ system OS"
RodgerThorm: Elaboration: eventually, either by simple presence and activity, or working in conjunction with
WotC/Hasbro/whomever acquire the rights to DQ (or at least to the online rights) and keep it 'alive'
RodgerThorm: The Open Gaming Foundation might be the path to this
JuanCo1: Oh I have anotjer peice of bussiness! sorry
JFRAUCHERT: Open Source as a concept is that under an open source license no one can close the DQ system again. It remains a
free because it everyone has the right to copy modify and distribute.
JuanCo1: You reminded me that I wanted to ask JohnR how the attempt to aquire DQ rights went, when the DQPA tried it
JFRAUCHERT: Just to answer that quickly...
Snafaru: Curious, just how much could those rights cost?
RodgerThorm: I think that simply by establishing a presence and a system to produce and sanction DQ material, we have the
momentum with us, and for any future DQ project, we have at least a partial stake in it
RodgerThorm: No one is supporting DQ now
Snafaru: Hmmm, we're into another subject now...
JuanCo1: I agree Rodger, though as far as Hasbro is concerned, we have as much stake as my sister
JuanCo1: sorry
JFRAUCHERT: DQPA never approached WOTC, a number of individuals have and the answer is that they were not interested in
giving up the rights to the system.
RodgerThorm: So if there is a group of DQ people out on the web actively working on it, then we become the default experts (and I
think we are that already)
JuanCo1: Thanks for the answer. If I win the lottery, it is the first thing on my list. Now back to Goals
JFRAUCHERT: The joy of Open Source is that you may not have to buy it, WOTC may give freely.
RodgerThorm: Having a core of people actively developing and supporting the game, we become the gurus
JuanCo1: we seem to have two approaches. Core Rules, and Clarifications. Are they mutually exclusive, or can they be worked on
in parrallel
RodgerThorm: Good topic
JuanCo1: i think you are right about that Rodger
RodgerThorm: Core rules first
JuanCo1: (the gurus thing i mean)
Snafaru: Before expanding on the DQ rules I think it may be best to collect what is existing first in one spot.
JuanCo1: How close are you to finishing your collecting Snafaru
JuanCo1: I would like to see a collection of clarifications first...
RodgerThorm: I agree that we need to collect the existing resources -- are you cross posting it to the dq-rules site, Snafaru?
JFRAUCHERT: Whenever anybody talks about developing for DQ it is always in the form of expansions.
JFRAUCHERT: I think that we need a solid foundation on which to build
JuanCo1: What about the clarifications? Shouldn't we start there?
Snafaru: Everything sorted so far is in my DQOS releases,. lots of stuff to sort out. example: picked-up all the revision of White
Magic, now must make final rev.
JuanCo1: Is anyone going to care about core rules? I would think that clarifications would be more in demand
Snafaru: Also, I have a big worry/concern:
RodgerThorm: Clarifications are tricky, though, since they are interpretations
JFRAUCHERT: I think we also need to be looking at building how to systems (how to add a race, how to add a skill, how to add a
college)
JuanCo1: I think we do a great service and establish the name Rodger was tlaking about if we collect an distribute everything out ther,
then we have made a name and cna generate interest in the core rules project
Snafaru: Can I just pick up stuff out of people's sites and put them in DQ without prior acknowledgement as long as I put in proper
credits ???
RodgerThorm: JohnR -- that's what I think would be useful, and a first step to Core
JuanCo1: Snafaru: I think you should get permission, mostly on ethical, rather than legal grounds
JFRAUCHERT: It is easier to ask for forgiveness than to beg for permission!
JuanCo1: JohnR makes a good point too! i think most people would be flattered
RodgerThorm: Snaf -- let's collect it, but not include it in a final distribution without permission if we can
JuanCo1: Agreed Rodger
JFRAUCHERT: I agree with that as well
RodgerThorm: We need to test these things and decide what goes into a Final Distribution
JuanCo1: i have another question for Snafaru
JFRAUCHERT: Maybe most of it will not make the final cut
RodgerThorm: I don't think it's a problem to gather everything and lump it into what we have right now
JuanCo1: The latest version was about 18 pages, the first version was 120, what is the difference
RodgerThorm: That is not the Final Distribution document
Snafaru: Arcane Wisdom put in a seperate file.
JuanCo1: You have not included worldyl endevor yet?
RodgerThorm: If we have something good, and we want to include it, we can worry about finding people and getting permission at
that point
JuanCo1: Agreed
Snafaru: I think I'll split the whole thing in four books.
JuanCo1: I think that is a good technical decision Snafaru
Snafaru: Just parts of the WE. It is time consuming to sort all the stuff out and present it in a proper way.
JuanCo1: I sent Todd another invite... I think I will stop badgering him
RodgerThorm: Okay, to get back on track, we have three issues:
RodgerThorm: Core Rules; Commentary; and Additional Rules
JuanCo1: (one IM tip you can set it so you have to hit control enter to submit your text, this allows you to put carrige returns in your
messages)
JuanCo1: Commentary being clarifications and such?
RodgerThorm: Exactly, JuanC
RodgerThorm: JohnR brought up a good point earlier
RodgerThorm: A good thing for us to come up with is an interface
JuanCo1: and Interface?
RodgerThorm: ie. How do you incorporate new things into existing DQ
JFRAUCHERT: I don't see my core rules concept and commentary as being incompatible just on two ends of the spectrum.
Snafaru: What do you thing about the style I'm using in DQOS for rules clarifications... i-e, school of thought#1, #2, #3, which reflect
different interpretations/ways of doing things.
RodgerThorm: I think Core and Commentary are separate things
JuanCo1: I agree, the question is which should we concentrate on? We could split tasks between us , so we can work in parallel
JuanCo1: i agree they are seperate tasks... but to a common goal
JFRAUCHERT: Discussion has to take place to ultimately move the rules system forward.
RodgerThorm: Commentary is like the Designer's Notes. Core is part of the actual rules, and needs to be written in real rules-ese
Snafaru: Work in parralel, each one has a section of the book to take care of.
JuanCo1: i would like to have one definitive answer for the clarifications, and then several "alternatives". Just a matter of formating
really
RodgerThorm: Some commentary items may become real rules if there is a broad agreement that an existing rule needs to be
rewritten for clarifiaction, but I think that is separate from simply Commentaries, and I see the distinction being in how each is written
JuanCo1: but I do not want to do the core rules, I would rather do the clarifications (for example)
JFRAUCHERT: and that is great
Snafaru: First, gather materiel.
RodgerThorm: I agree with JuanC, as well, that each of these, all of these, really, can be done in parallel
Snafaru: Second, clarificarions
Snafaru: what's next
JFRAUCHERT: I suggested that I further develop my concepts and present them back to the larger group at a future date
JuanCo1: We publish, then we do the core rules
JuanCo1: Yeah it would really help me to see some "cored" rules. Then we would have a common frame of refernce
RodgerThorm: Commentary is good as an ongoing process
JuanCo1: Right, but we should come out wit h Commentaries version 1.0
Snafaru: current core rules = DQ 2nd ed. right?
JuanCo1: yes bantam edition
JFRAUCHERT: I see the first release will be clarifications with some rules modification (perception for instance) and some
expansions.
JuanCo1: JohnR agreed
Snafaru: Ok, agreed
RodgerThorm: And I think that Snafaru's way of taking everyone's ideas and condensing them into a readable format is ideal for that
part of the project
JFRAUCHERT: The problem I have with the bootleg copy of Bantam is that it has some house rules in it
RodgerThorm: Commentaries need to be like a FAQ
JFRAUCHERT: and it is incomplete
JuanCo1: Do you need a nhand sorting through part of what you have collected Snafaru? I could take everything you have for Magic
for example. Or whatever part you do not want to work on
RodgerThorm: With periodical updates, and staying abreast of the discussions
Snafaru: Assignments are already out there.
JuanCo1: Oh! I had not noticed. Well I have both the hard cover, and softcover in "reality"
JFRAUCHERT: I only have the hard (white) of second ed.
JuanCo1: I had recinded my assignment when the cores rules thing came up. But i will take magic clarifications back if that is OK
with you guys
JuanCo1: OK who owns what?
RodgerThorm: I have no problems with that
JuanCo1: everyone have hardcover
Snafaru: Example: The Second Book: Magic is John Corey and his group's assignment. I was going to do White Magic just to get it
started.
RodgerThorm: Yeah. I think I have at least one copy of every edition
JuanCo1: Do you want to finish? i am happy to take over, or let you finish as you desire
RodgerThorm: I have not taken that close a look at the online copy
JFRAUCHERT: I "own" Character Generation.
JuanCo1: Snafaru, you own combat right?
RodgerThorm: Todd and I have both spoken up for Skills and Adventure
Snafaru: I have hardcover
JuanCo1: Can you get in contact with Todd?
JuanCo1: Let's say hard cover, with as a base
Snafaru: I do combat clarifications/additions.
JuanCo1: sorry that last sentance made no sense
JuanCo1: and my spelling sucks
RodgerThorm: (I tried to IM Todd, too. No reply, and it looks like he's offline, now)
JuanCo1: OK, so let's sum up
JuanCo1: We are agreed that JohnR will pul the Core Rules off the table until he has a chance to work on it a bit more, and then he
will present it to the group
JuanCo1: We will begin with clarifications to each of our respective sections
JuanCo1: we will then released the compiled expansions
JuanCo1: is that where we are?
JFRAUCHERT: yes
Snafaru: We will gather all that's on the Web.
JuanCo1: Correct Snafaru
RodgerThorm: And this will be geared toward a version 1.0 GM's Commentary Volume for release?
JuanCo1: yes
JFRAUCHERT: I have a few things only in print at this point
Snafaru: Fine with me, should I change the title of DQOS??
JuanCo1: to what?
JuanCo1: I think it is still an OS project, because we are looking for submissions
Snafaru: Or call it DQ Open Source - GM's Commentary Volume 1.0
JuanCo1: that sounds good
RodgerThorm: I don't know that it needs to be considered DQ OS in the title
RodgerThorm: in a way, it IS part of the whole OS project
RodgerThorm: but I think that the DQ OS can be part of the subtitle of that volume
RodgerThorm: rather than in the main title
RodgerThorm: That way it is clearer that it is commentary
JuanCo1: I can go either way
RodgerThorm: Again, this doesn't have to be finalized at this point
JuanCo1: also true
RodgerThorm: Just throwing in my 2cf
JFRAUCHERT: It is sort of like the standards around HTTP and the web (html, xml, pics, etc.) a whole bunch of standards and
commentaries etc within the sphere of DQOS,
JuanCo1: Can we talk for a few minutes on how to go about this?
JFRAUCHERT: In what way?
RodgerThorm: Can you elaborate on that, JohnR?
JuanCo1: For example, Snafaru has already done a lot of leg work. I could do it all over, or i could just find out where you have
been and who you have talked to
JuanCo1: (btw, i just saved what we have gone through so far)
JFRAUCHERT: There are many components that make up how the web works. Each of them is a component of the whole. they
have working groups drafting standards that then are implemented by the larger community. the GM Commentary is one the
components, Rules expansions another, maybe rules coring another etc.
Snafaru: Hmmm, since now the decision is to go ahead and apologize later, I'll be able to throw in a lot of stuff in DQOS real quick.
RodgerThorm: (Thanks, JuanC. I was just going to do the same thing. Can you email it to JohnK, on the chance he's online
tonight?)
JuanCo1: (sure)
RodgerThorm: I wouldn't worry about it Snafaru. Right now, it's a discussion document, not a final draft.
Snafaru: What about giving me a week or two and you'll see what I have gathered.
RodgerThorm: Personally, I think we're at a breakneck pace, and we need to slow down and spread this out, or we'll burn out
JFRAUCHERT: Now is the time for discussion, rough drafts and stuff, we can get much more refined later on.
RodgerThorm: But I don't want to be a drag on anyone else, either
JuanCo1: hang on .... girlfriend
Snafaru: Hey, this is a project that's going to take roughly a year, there is no panic, just need to move ahead constantly.
JFRAUCHERT: In any project there is a natural tension between too fast and too slow. Momentum vs. sober thought
JuanCo1: i am back
RodgerThorm: I tend towards consideration and sober thought
JFRAUCHERT: Priorities Gaming then women
JuanCo1: I think Snafaru is at a breakneck pace ;-)
JuanCo1: I am just sort of coasting, but I plan to jump in with both feet here pretty soon
RodgerThorm: Second that, JuanC
JuanCo1: i dobt we would be here if it were not for Snafaru's hard work
RodgerThorm: Snafaru must be working on this while he's up with the 3am feedings
JFRAUCHERT: Which is great for information gathering
JuanCo1: lol
JuanCo1: How should we do the commentaries? i mean how should we spread them around before we incorporate them?
JuanCo1: (I emailed JohnK)
RodgerThorm: I would like to see a list of questions for commentary circulated
RodgerThorm: Then we can build the Commentaries from that plus the material Sanfaru has already compiled
JuanCo1: What do you think the value of posts are? for example i could post at WebRPG saying "What parts of the magic system
have you found most confusing?"
JFRAUCHERT: I think that it has to be more specific
JuanCo1: You mean the posts or the list?
RodgerThorm: Commentaries need to be collected and distilled from broad experience. I would like to see the Commentaries and
the DQN more closely linked
JFRAUCHERT: Both
RodgerThorm: since the DQN is ideally a discussion of the game
RodgerThorm: (Do you have a complete catalog of all the issues, Sanfaru?)
JuanCo1: Could you send me tha back issues of the DQN please?
Snafaru: yes
JuanCo1: john@westpole.com
Snafaru: yes , i'll zip them
RodgerThorm: Dan Allbutt's site (aka Holwinkle) has most everything archived and laid out
Snafaru: That's one site I was waiting for permission.
JuanCo1: url please (is it the one I just asked about on WebRPG)
Snafaru: yes
JuanCo1: Gotcha, should we get him in on this, he seems very organized
RodgerThorm: I think so, yes; the one with the D10 joke on the front page
RodgerThorm: I've told him about this; I don't think he has a lot of time to spare for it, but I would love to see him getting involved
JFRAUCHERT: Holwinkle
RodgerThorm: ^^^ That's him
JuanCo1: that is the one I had been looking for
JuanCo1: thanks
JuanCo1: OK should we move on? do we have the Goals covered for now?
JFRAUCHERT: sort of and some deliverables as well
JuanCo1: and some organization..... Should we talk more about that?
JFRAUCHERT: yes
RodgerThorm: I will start a list of questions for the commentaries and pass that along
JuanCo1: OK. I will start working with the stuff Snafaru already has, and work on organizing it.
JuanCo1: And try and find more
Snafaru: Give me a week though...
JuanCo1: Did you get that combat rules summary I sent you Snafaru?
Snafaru: Yes
JuanCo1: OK I will chill or a coupla weeks
JuanCo1: Any help? we find it real handy. We are still working on our java combat engine
Snafaru: Still need to go through it.
Snafaru: recap
Snafaru: 1. Goal: To provide a supplement to the existing DQ rules that contains rules clarifications, expansions, and commentaries
and part of DQ OS.2. Organization: We have our assignments. Wait a week or 2 for Snafaru to show what has been gathered.
JuanCo1: OK that takes care of short term timelines as well
Snafaru: next subject please
JuanCo1: I have one organization question.
RodgerThorm: Wait
RodgerThorm: I think we are looking at multiple documents, not a single tome
Snafaru: You mean?
JuanCo1: How do we decide what is going to be included/Excluded? By committee, or by what section we were assigned?
RodgerThorm: This may just be semantics, but I would say "To provide supplements..." plural
RodgerThorm: I think section assignments are just to share the load administratively
JFRAUCHERT: We are fairly small group so overlap is natural
RodgerThorm: We need to have a pretty clear consensus about what gets included
Snafaru: That's what the questionnaires will be about... to ask people what they think of whatever rules, what revision should be
made, parts deleted, accepted, dropped etc etc
JFRAUCHERT: I don't think that we can "dictate" to the DQ community
RodgerThorm: I think all of us will want to have a say in all of this
JuanCo1: OK well, we should go one with our assignements, and then get to gehter in a month or two, and start discussing cuts and
additions.
Snafaru: yes, let's begin to put something down on paper (virtual paper in this case).
JFRAUCHERT: I would also like to see us get the broader DQ community involved through the forums and DQN
RodgerThorm: No, JohnR, I agree with you. We aren't 'dictating' to anyone. But we are saying here are things that we have all
agreed on, and that we think are useful additions to the existing DragonQuest system
JuanCo1: yes. once we break stuff into the sections, and organize it it will be easier for us to discuss further
RodgerThorm: And I agree that this should be as broad as anything else in the online DQ communtiy
RodgerThorm: Like the DQN. I was just the guy who was willing to take the time to pull it together, but it was written by anyone
who wanted to contribute
JuanCo1: OK I am ready for the next topic then (or are we on it?)
JFRAUCHERT: We are providing the focal point for discussion
RodgerThorm: I think we have the same thing here, we just have a wider editorial staff
RodgerThorm: Focal point, even better
JuanCo1: JohnR do you want to make a post on WebRPG saying "We are doing this, these people will be posting questions, check
back often"?
Snafaru: Next subject, it's been an hour already
JuanCo1: fair enough
JuanCo1: Shall we agree to chat again in 2 months, and have some work on each or our sections done?
Snafaru: ok
JFRAUCHERT: I can word smith it if that is what everyone wants
JuanCo1: If you do not mind? Oh wait, we put Rodger in charge of this didn't we? I nominate him instead
JFRAUCHERT: I would say progress reports to be posted every two weeks to DQ-Rules
JuanCo1: ok
JFRAUCHERT: Rodger? do you want the honor of communicating this to outside world
Snafaru: Recap coming... silence...
RodgerThorm: I think JohnR is a better voice to the assembly, but either way. We should probably put all of our names (or
pseudonyms) to it. I am always leery of speaking up too much, because I don't want to give the impression that I'm the guy driving
all the DQ stuff. I want it to be a broader DQ-community thing.
Snafaru: 1.Goal: To provide a supplement to the existing DQ rules that contains rules clarifications, expansions, and commentaries
and part of DQ OS.
Snafaru: 2.Organization: We have our assignments. Wait a week or 2 for Snafaru to show what has been gathered.
Snafaru: 3. Timeline: 1. 2 weeks for Snafaru to show gathered materiel 2. Next meeting in 2 months or earlier if necessary. 3. Post
progress report in dq-rules every 2 weeks.
Snafaru: done
JuanCo1: Shall we talk about 4? or should we wrap this up for tonight?