On Mon, Feb 11, 2019 at 7:26 PM <DQ-RULES@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Dragon Quest Open Source Group

11 Messages

Digest #651

1a

Re: Arcane Wisdom by gwyddon_cunning_folk

1b

Re: Arcane Wisdom by gwyddon_cunning_folk

1c

Re: Arcane Wisdom by gwyddon_cunning_folk

1d

Re: Arcane Wisdom by gwyddon_cunning_folk

1e

Re: Arcane Wisdom by gwyddon_cunning_folk

1f

Re: Arcane Wisdom by gwyddon_cunning_folk

1g

Re: Arcane Wisdom by "Howard Teal" hwteal

1h

Re: Arcane Wisdom by gwyddon_cunning_folk

1i

Re: Arcane Wisdom by gwyddon_cunning_folk

1j

Re: Arcane Wisdom by gwyddon_cunning_folk

2a

DQ Edition Preference by gwyddon_cunning_folk

Messages

1a

Re: Arcane Wisdom

Mon Feb 11, 2019 12:39 pm (PST) . Posted by:

gwyddon_cunning_folk

This is a “social hobby” of me and I see munchkinism as anti-social behavior. I have never met a munchkin who thought it was a problem;




Well said. I agree, since I have been GM'ing since nearly the beginning of the rpg hobby, what you stated is true.


Frank

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1b

Re: Arcane Wisdom

Mon Feb 11, 2019 12:55 pm (PST) . Posted by:

gwyddon_cunning_folk

Shapers can easily be fashioning enchanted items between adventuring and participating on adventures for any reason, including searching for components to fashion enchanted items. Playing a Shaper as NPCs only is a limitation of a GM or player, not a limitation of the rules themselves.

Frank

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1c

Re: Arcane Wisdom

Mon Feb 11, 2019 1:07 pm (PST) . Posted by:

gwyddon_cunning_folk

Problems that occur during an adventure or character generation in DQ, or any rpg for that matter, is usually with a player or GM who is a power gamer or is too immature for the rpg hobby, not the rules in of the rpg itself. The colleges of arcane magic in DQ is not the problem, it is a player or GM who is the problem. There is a difference between a poorly designed or developed rules system of an rpg, and a GM or player who is incapable of experienced playing the rpg without make the experience game breaking. DQ is a carefully designed, developed, and playtested rpg that is among the best that I have ever experienced. There are few experienced players and GMs who actually understand the subtlely of this rpg, from the SPI designer's and developer's intellect, and what can be experienced playing it.

Frank

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1d

Re: Arcane Wisdom

Mon Feb 11, 2019 1:24 pm (PST) . Posted by:

gwyddon_cunning_folk

"However, I am curious as to others' opinions on Arcane Wisdom and specifically the 3 colleges therein. Does anyone use the newer TSR versions? If so, why?"


I use, as a GM since the first edition was published, a compilation of rules from each edition that do not create incongruencies regarding rule implementation, context of a rule, and a rule's effect upon the game session.. For example there are several rituals in the College of Rune Magics that have various differences dependent on the source - Arcane Wisdom, third edition, an Ares magazine article, and the appendix in the adventure DQ1 The Shattered Statue. Since there are four versions of this college of arcane magic I leave it to a player's agency (choice) who generates a Rune Adept which rules are to be used.


Frank

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1e

Re: Arcane Wisdom

Mon Feb 11, 2019 1:37 pm (PST) . Posted by:

gwyddon_cunning_folk

Munchkins and rules lawyers -- hate 'em both!


Being what some would call a "rule lawyer" is actually complementary and not pejorative. There are few GMs or players capable of recognizing and understanding the intricate contextual nuances of rpg game design.


Frank

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1f

Re: Arcane Wisdom

Mon Feb 11, 2019 1:59 pm (PST) . Posted by:

gwyddon_cunning_folk

"Adepts of Black Magics usually did themselves in by using 14. Call Master Spell (G-14). One player actually managed to backfire (somewhere between DR 26-55 on himself, and failed to resist) his character 3 times in one session. The 3rd time was the final straw for his Master. Most players limit themselves to first or second pact."
This is the DQ experience intended by the game design premise that combat and magic is risky, and potentially deadly. If a Black Magician backfires (G-14) then that is what the DQ experience is truly about. The game was carefully designed to have give that particular experience, thus there is nothing "wrong" with the rules of the game, and the adepts did not "do it to themselves". If a player limits himself to not making the third pact there should be a rationale, of which there can be several, and fear may be one.

Frank

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1g

Re: Arcane Wisdom

Mon Feb 11, 2019 2:22 pm (PST) . Posted by:

"Howard Teal" hwteal

When people say rules lawyer, they usually refer to the guy that ruins the
flow of the game to argue rules nuances with the game master mostly so that
the rules lawyer can do something that the GM is against. I appreciate
having players that are knowledgeable about rules that can tell me how
something works to save me the time of looking it up, but not ones that
argue against my rulings while I am trying to run the game.

On Mon, Feb 11, 2019 at 4:16 PM gwyddon@zoominternet.net [DQ-RULES] <
DQ-RULES@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

>
>
> Munchkins and rules lawyers -- hate 'em both!
>
> Being what some would call a "rule lawyer" is actually complementary and
> not pejorative. There are few GMs or players capable of recognizing and
> understanding the intricate contextual nuances of rpg game design.
>
> Frank
>
>
>

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1h

Re: Arcane Wisdom

Mon Feb 11, 2019 2:24 pm (PST) . Posted by:

gwyddon_cunning_folk

Problems that occur during an adventure or character generation in DQ, or any rpg for that matter, is usually with a player or GM who is a power gamer or is too immature for the rpg hobby, not the rules in of the rpg itself. The colleges of arcane magic in DQ is not the problem, it is a player or GM who is creating a dilemma. There is a difference between a poorly designed or developed rules system of an rpg, and a GM or player who is incapable of experiencing playing the rpg without making the experience game breaking. DQ is a carefully designed, developed, and playtested rpg that is among the best that I have ever experienced. There are few experienced players and GMs who actually understand the subtlely of this rpg, from the SPI designer's and developer's intellect, and what can be experienced playing it.

Frank

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1i

Re: Arcane Wisdom

Mon Feb 11, 2019 2:31 pm (PST) . Posted by:

gwyddon_cunning_folk

Again the dilemma is about the limitations of a GM or a player, not the limitation of DQ rules regarding Shapers, Illusionists, Black Magicians, or any other adept.

Frank

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1j

Re: Arcane Wisdom

Mon Feb 11, 2019 3:37 pm (PST) . Posted by:

gwyddon_cunning_folk

I agree with your description of the problems with a "rule lawyer" in the context your statement. Although, there is also the context of a 'rule lawyer" in my statement. There is more than one context of what a "rule lawyer" is as well as what a "power gamer" is.

Frank

On Tue, Feb 12, 2019 at 7:21 AM Cody Mills mr_whoos@yahoo.com [DQ-RULES] <DQ-RULES@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

This is kinda related. Do everyone know about the New Zealand DQ group? They have a running game that been going on for like 30+ years I think. 

But they have compiled most the rules they use into their own PDF and it's still DQ. They have a wiki page that has PDF copies if there rules.  

I have been using those rules since I started playing DQ and still do today.

Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android

On Tue, Feb 12, 2019 at 10:12 AM, Anthony Emmel anthony.emmel@gmail.com [DQ-RULES]

<DQ-RULES@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 

One thing about the TSR version, besides the obvious culling of the "evil" magic colleges, iirc, the racial penalties and bonuses were doubled for some unknown reason.

One thing that I thought was cool when I was 12 -13 (1982-83) and found the Bantam printing was the fact that you could play an orc! That really opened up possibilities I'd not thought of before: orcs were people too. Quite a concept for a 12 year old. Admittedly my gaming style has always been a bit eclectic....I started with 1e Gamma World, drifted into B/X D&D and then AD&D and Star Frontiers; DQ was my 5th game, but still impacting my gaming in a positive way.

--

Anthony N. Emmel, M.A.

 

Diaboli fugient ubi vir bonus proelium sanctificat.

"The devils shall flee when a good man wages war."

--

Thanks,

Kyle

Kyle Hall, DTM Mobile: 360-808-5780 | Email: kyle.s.hall01@gmail.com | Skype: kylecarolhall District 32 District Director | d32toastmasters.org/ Member of Skwim Toastmasters and Sound Advice Where Leaders Are Made | www.Toastmasters.org

On Tue, Feb 12, 2019 at 8:17 AM Cody Mills mr_whoos@yahoo.com [DQ-RULES] <DQ-RULES@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Here you go. 

http://www.dq-nz.org/dqwiki/index.php?title=Main_Page

Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android

On Tue, Feb 12, 2019 at 11:13 AM, Kyle Hall kyle.s.hall01@gmail.com [DQ-RULES]

<DQ-RULES@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 

Codi, can you give us the link to their wiki page.  I'd like to take a look.

Kyle

On Tue, Feb 12, 2019 at 7:21 AM Cody Mills mr_whoos@yahoo.com [DQ-RULES] <DQ-RULES@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

This is kinda related. Do everyone know about the New Zealand DQ group? They have a running game that been going on for like 30+ years I think. 

But they have compiled most the rules they use into their own PDF and it's still DQ. They have a wiki page that has PDF copies if there rules..  

I have been using those rules since I started playing DQ and still do today.

Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android

On Tue, Feb 12, 2019 at 10:12 AM, Anthony Emmel anthony.emmel@gmail.com [DQ-RULES]

<DQ-RULES@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 

One thing about the TSR version, besides the obvious culling of the "evil" magic colleges, iirc, the racial penalties and bonuses were doubled for some unknown reason.

One thing that I thought was cool when I was 12 -13 (1982-83) and found the Bantam printing was the fact that you could play an orc! That really opened up possibilities I'd not thought of before: orcs were people too. Quite a concept for a 12 year old. Admittedly my gaming style has always been a bit eclectic....I started with 1e Gamma World, drifted into B/X D&D and then AD&D and Star Frontiers; DQ was my 5th game, but still impacting my gaming in a positive way.

--

Anthony N. Emmel, M.A.

 

Diaboli fugient ubi vir bonus proelium sanctificat.

"The devils shall flee when a good man wages war."

--

Thanks,

Kyle

Kyle Hall, DTM Mobile: 360-808-5780 | Email: kyle.s.hall01@gmail.com | Skype: kylecarolhall District 32 District Director | d32toastmasters.org/ Member of Skwim Toastmasters and Sound Advice Where Leaders Are Made | www.Toastmasters.org

--

Thanks,

Kyle

Kyle Hall, DTM Mobile: 360-808-5780 | Email: kyle.s.hall01@gmail.com | Skype: kylecarolhall District 32 District Director | d32toastmasters.org/ Member of Skwim Toastmasters and Sound Advice Where Leaders Are Made | www.Toastmasters.org

Here is where the DQ online community began before the DQ yahoo groups. Enjoy.

http://www.oocities.org/timessquare/portal/7471/DQ/news/index.html

Frank

On Tue, Feb 12, 2019 at 1:42 PM, gwyddon@zoominternet.net [DQ-RULES]

<DQ-RULES@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 

Here is where the DQ online community began before the DQ yahoo groups. Enjoy.

http://www.oocities.org/timessquare/portal/7471/DQ/news/index.html

Frank

On Tue, Feb 12, 2019 at 2:40 PM, gwyddon@zoominternet.net [DQ-RULES]

<DQ-RULES@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 

Members of the New Zealand DQ Group, as well as myself in Ohio, have been part of this group, the DQ Newsletter yahoo group, and BBS (Bulletin Board System, "pre-net") since 1994. Some of them may still be here. I am, at least. 

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/dqn-list/info

Frank

If a DQ GM and players prefer to stay as close to official rules (cannon) as they can, I suggest the preferred DQ edition by a GM and players in a particular group (by DQ Yahoo group consensus it is the Bantam revised 2nd Edition), Craig Brain's Arcane Wisdom, any ARES articles or DragonNotes that clarify rules, add skills, monsters, published by SPI. Most of these were written by the designers and developers of DQ. Also consider any rules clarifications, skills, monsters that are in the published DQ adventures by SPI. The Chaosium's published boxed set of "Thieves' World" article by Eric Goldberg should be considered as well as a guideline to religion and the Powers in DQ. Any material published by SPI is official, as well as TSR's third edition and the adventure DQ1 The Shattered Statue since Gerald Chris Klug was involved. 

It may not be preferable to step away too far from "canon". That is for you to decide.

Frank

There are more gamers involved with DQ in Ohio, since the BBS on ftp before the yahoo groups, than people realize. Other than myself, there is/was Phillip Proefrock, Dave Nadler, Drake Stanton, Cody Mills and Frank Paldino. Anyone else would like to say who you are and where you located. After all, that is one of the purposes of this DQ community from 1994 in the DQ Newsletter to these two yahoo groups now.

Cody Mills: I'm a also in Ohio. Cincinnati

Frank Paldino: I am in Youngstown, Ohio

Frank

My group has discussed that.  They agreed with my view that the summoned demons are just part of the actual demon  and the summoned demon can be in more than one place at a time. 

Which may be why many of them seem so angry. :)  If the PCs met the actual demon, they would be a smear in no time.

* * * * *

If anyone is interested, I'll explain why my world has demons, gods and so many different intelligent species.

* * * * *

I have dwarf (now NPC) that received a wish and wished to be "the greatest axe wielder ever" (turns out he could rank 15 hand ax, battle ax and great ax), but he had to train with Sallos, The Mighty Duke.  They got thrown out (and banned) from every drinking establishment in the city :)

On February 14, 2019 at 9:06 AM "hzark10@aol.com [DQ-RULES]" <DQ-RULES@yahoogroups.com> wrote:



I was just throwing a number out.  If you think that number is much higher, it proves the point I am trying to make unless, the gm rules that these are not the actual demons themselves, but simply a manifestation and the demon can be in more than one place at a time.

 

 

 

I allow above listed ranks only when a wish is involved, it takes experience points, time, a demon teacher, and lots of role-playing :)

To date: A dwarf (Axes), a halfling (Thief) (thanks to the dwarf using one of his 3 wishes, and the third wish was to free a djinn), and an elf (Healer, now known as the greatest Healer in the world.)

* * * * *

In regard to wishes, I've limited wishes to 5 words, and two of them have to be, "I wish . . .", otherwise players will take a lot of time to phrase their wish to avoid misinterpreted consequences.

My favorite wish occasion was from many, many years ago.  Neither the player nor the pc had a clue what they had.  While she was contemplating what the ring was, she said, "I wish I was a mockingbird beneath a hawthorne tree."

And she discovered she was a mockingbird beneath an hawthorne tree.  Her second wish was, "I wish I was home."  And she was . . . a mockingbird beneath a hawthorne tree.  She used the third wish to be back to normal.

~Jeffery~

On February 14, 2019 at 12:42 PM "gwyddon@zoominternet.net [DQ-RULES]" <DQ-RULES@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

---In DQ-RULES@yahoogroups.com, <igmod@...> wrote :

I have dwarf (now NPC) that received a wish and wished to be "the greatest axe wielder ever" (turns out he could rank 15 hand ax, battle ax and great ax), but he had to train with Sallos, The Mighty Duke.  They got thrown out (and banned) from every drinking establishment in the city :)

I see that you changed the maximums of ranking weapons. If you do not mind my quiry, what was the rationale that you did so.

Frank 

 

 

 

 

If anyone wants a SPI DQ second revised edition Bantam copy:

 https://www.ebay.com/itm/Dragonquest-2nd-Ediition-Spi-Inc-1982-Paperback/303061244815?hash=item468fdb9b8f:g:AxEAAOSwOAJcZGMs:rk:20:pf:0 

On Thu, Feb 14, 2019 at 10:16 AM gwyddon@zoominternet.net [DQ-RULES] <DQ-RULES@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 

There are more gamers involved with DQ in Ohio, since the BBS on ftp before the yahoo groups, than people realize. Other than myself, there is/was Phillip Proefrock, Dave Nadler, Drake Stanton, Cody Mills and Frank Paldino. Anyone else would like to say who you are and where you located. After all, that is one of the purposes of this DQ community from 1994 in the DQ Newsletter to these two yahoo groups now.

Cody Mills: I'm a also in Ohio. Cincinnati

Frank Paldino: I am in Youngstown, Ohio

Frank

I didn't notice anything in the file section; is there any real differences between the SPI printing verses the Bantam printing other than the hole punching?

Thanks!

Tony

On Thu, Mar 21, 2019 at 11:23 AM Chet mormonyoyoman@gmail.com [DQ-RULES] <DQ-RULES@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 

The SPI 2nd edition had a better, a more bell-curved, chart for determining beginning character building points. Lost and gone forever...

--

jeep! And God Bless!
--Grandpa Chet
#Remember the wiggly ears!

 "Have I seen the hand of God reaching out to touch us or our children or our family today?" 

Has anyone ever worked up how to determine how spells affect different mundane materials?  Such has how characters can get a wood/iron/stone wall?  How much damage can they do to a sail or hull? (If the characters don't have access to Fire Magics or Earth Magics?)

Is there any chance that A or C class weapons chop down a tree?  How long will it take for B class weapons to down a tree?

Does Black Fire (Celestial S-10) damage mundane items?

Inquiring minds want to know.

~Jeffery~

What I'm asking is for consistency in dealing with things like a tree, a wall (wood, stone, iron) instead of improvising each time.  Say a 2' diameter tree, how long should it take to fell it with an axe or saw?  How long will it take to hack through a 6" wooden wall, or alternatively how much damage do you have to inflict on the wooden wall before you hack a hole large enough to get through?  Would spell damage make a hole through the 6" wall?

A simple search shows that the time depends on softwood, hardwood or dead tree.  for a 12" diameter tree (not defined as soft or hardwood) with a sharpened double axe, about 5 minutes.

The only people I personally knew with real world experience axe or tree felling saw have passed away.  And no suggestions how to account for improvised spells to damage a wall of any type.

~Jeffery~

On March 28, 2019 at 11:40 PM "Michael Wright horus67_1999@yahoo.com [DQ-RULES]" <DQ-RULES@yahoogroups.com> wrote: 

if it does physical damage to people it does real damage to mundane items

point 2 class a weapons wont cut down a tree unless they have an edge and then consider improvised class c likewise weapon classes are somewhat abstract a warhammer has a pick on one end that could hack a tree a mace has metal flanges a club would break first...roleplaying is about using the rules as a guide but using your head for solutions like this

On Thursday, 28 March 2019, 5:29:33 am AEST, igmod@comcast.net [DQ-RULES] <DQ-RULES@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 

 

Has anyone ever worked up how to determine how spells affect different mundane materials?  Such has how characters can get a wood/iron/stone wall?  How much damage can they do to a sail or hull? (If the characters don't have access to Fire Magics or Earth Magics?)

Is there any chance that A or C class weapons chop down a tree?  How long will it take for B class weapons to down a tree?

Does Black Fire (Celestial S-10) damage mundane items?

Inquiring minds want to know.

~Jeffery~

 

 

 

Thank you, Frank, for clarifying my query.  I would like to discuss this more.

~Jeffery~

On March 29, 2019 at 3:54 PM "gwyddon@zoominternet.net [DQ-RULES]" <DQ-RULES@yahoogroups.com> wrote:



Jeffrey,

There are several differing directions this discussion is going, more suitable for separate threads - if there is interest pursuing further. 

Michael Wright's reply takes the theoretical  gamemaster approach of valuing a game master's 'rulings' equitable to/or de-emphasizing 'rules as written'. This gm style was prominent in the early to mid 1970's and the OSR trend of the rpg hobby. Whereas your gm style, as well as mine, is simulationism - that is valuing consistency of rule implementation that follows patterns to de-emphasize a game master's 'ruling' and emphasizing 'rules as written', requiring gms house rules if needed. You are seeking a guideline to make a decision as a gm based upon precedence in DQ rules. Michael refers to this, but his message implies that a gm eventually relies upon a 'ruling' when the rules do not apply to a situation during a game session. Michael's answer to your query is unsatisfactory because his answer is from a differing game master theory compared to the game design theory of verisimilitude of DQ and your own gm preference of using a house rule that is definitively extrapolated from DQ rules. 

Perhaps I have a satisfactory answer to your question in a separate message for clarity of separate threads.  

Frank  

 

 

"If the damage is triple effect determined by the strike roll, the wooden door is destroyed from one attack. Spells that inflict physical damage are applied the same. There is an article that is useful in this situation, as well as offering an alternative Backfire Chart for spells in Fantasy Gamer #2 magazine by SJG 1983. I have the PDF if you need it."

Thank you, I would enjoy seeing the PDF you are offering.  

~Jeffery~

Michael,