Where in the rules is this about dual colleges? We often wondered about how to handle that, but could never find anything.

--- In dq-rules@yahoogroups.com, "Ian Wood" <dawnhaven@...> wrote:
>
I would think about giving the PC a second college (that is missing from the party say Earth), and for the player to shadow with Illusion too, so that the PC becomes dual college:
>

Attachments :

About changing rules, as my coleegues described above, you must justify strongly. If you can convince the GM, we proceed in this way:

Spend 6 month to get the new Magic Collegue in time.
You must pay the trainer to lern. (Cost is given by the GM, depending the Mages avaible to teach)
Lost all the spells except the counterspells, of the old college and the generic ones (Investment Ritual, Spell preparation, Purification Ritual, etc.)

But in any case, I keep Ian's phrase and we parctice all the time:


"The number one rule that is not in the rules is to subordinate all rules to the goal of having fun.


Regards.

Gabriel.


________________________________

De: dq-rules@yahoogroups.com en nombre de Ian Wood
Enviado el: sáb 17/09/2011 18:05
Para: dq-rules@yahoogroups.com
Asunto: RE: [dq-rules] Re: END healing




Dual colleges isn't in the rules, I made it up as illusion is a very difficult college to play enjoyably. Most of the other colleges are quite simple to play, so seeing how as GM you can do anything you wish, I thought 'give them something else to do as well'.



The alternative, more within the rules, is to give the PC some skills or weapons that they can do (although that may annoy the players of existing fighters), but the main thing is to create something they can enjoy.



Another alternative is to allow the PC to change colleges, and redesign their characteristics. It would be good if there is a story line reason for the change, but the players will accept it as they want their friend to enjoy the game.



The number one rule that is not in the rules is to subordinate all rules to the goal of having fun.



Part of the job of GM is to interpret rules, and occasionally change them, in a consistent way, and in a way that makes the game fun.

Such as deciding on 1 day per point of EN recovery rather than 3 or 4 days.



Cheers Ian



________________________________

From: dq-rules@yahoogroups.com [mailto:dq-rules@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Bob Constans
Sent: Sunday, 18 September 2011 6:43 a.m.
To: dq-rules@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [dq-rules] Re: END healing





Where in the rules is this about dual colleges? We often wondered about how to handle that, but could never find anything.

--- In dq-rules@yahoogroups.com <mailto:dq-rules%40yahoogroups.com> , "Ian Wood" <dawnhaven@...> wrote:
>
I would think about giving the PC a second college (that is missing from the party say Earth), and for the player to shadow with Illusion too, so that the PC becomes dual college:
>

________________________________

No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com/>
Version: 10.0.1410 / Virus Database: 1520/3902 - Release Date: 09/17/11

I totally agree with Gabriel's approach in general, if the player is already
enjoying playing, and wishes to change for some other reason.

If however the player is struggling, or not enjoying it as much as we wish,
which I believe is the case, then I would go for an immediate fix, and add
to rather than replace, as Illusion is really hard and so wont over power
the PC.

Cheers Ian

> -----Original Message-----
> From: dq-rules@yahoogroups.com [mailto:dq-rules@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
> Of Gabriel Martinez
> Sent: Sunday, 18 September 2011 9:33 p.m.
> To: dq-rules@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: RE: [dq-rules] Re: END healing
>
> About changing rules, as my coleegues described above, you must justify
> strongly. If you can convince the GM, we proceed in this way:
>
> Spend 6 month to get the new Magic Collegue in time.
> You must pay the trainer to lern. (Cost is given by the GM, depending the
> Mages avaible to teach)
> Lost all the spells except the counterspells, of the old college and the
> generic ones (Investment Ritual, Spell preparation, Purification Ritual,
> etc.)
>
> But in any case, I keep Ian's phrase and we parctice all the time:
>
>
> "The number one rule that is not in the rules is to subordinate all rules
> to the goal of having fun.
>
>
> Regards.
>
> Gabriel.
>
>
> ________________________________
>
> De: dq-rules@yahoogroups.com en nombre de Ian Wood
> Enviado el: sáb 17/09/2011 18:05
> Para: dq-rules@yahoogroups.com
> Asunto: RE: [dq-rules] Re: END healing
>
>
>
>
> Dual colleges isn't in the rules, I made it up as illusion is a very
> difficult college to play enjoyably. Most of the other colleges are quite
> simple to play, so seeing how as GM you can do anything you wish, I
> thought 'give them something else to do as well'.
>
>
>
> The alternative, more within the rules, is to give the PC some skills or
> weapons that they can do (although that may annoy the players of existing
> fighters), but the main thing is to create something they can enjoy.
>
>
>
> Another alternative is to allow the PC to change colleges, and redesign
> their characteristics. It would be good if there is a story line reason
> for the change, but the players will accept it as they want their friend
> to enjoy the game.
>
>
>
> The number one rule that is not in the rules is to subordinate all rules
> to the goal of having fun.
>
>
>
> Part of the job of GM is to interpret rules, and occasionally change them,
> in a consistent way, and in a way that makes the game fun.
>
> Such as deciding on 1 day per point of EN recovery rather than 3 or 4
> days.
>
>
>
> Cheers Ian
>
>
>
> ________________________________
>
> From: dq-rules@yahoogroups.com [mailto:dq-rules@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
> Of Bob Constans
> Sent: Sunday, 18 September 2011 6:43 a.m.
> To: dq-rules@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [dq-rules] Re: END healing
>
>
>
>
>
> Where in the rules is this about dual colleges? We often wondered about
> how to handle that, but could never find anything.
>
> --- In dq-rules@yahoogroups.com <mailto:dq-rules%40yahoogroups.com> , "Ian
> Wood" <dawnhaven@...> wrote:
> >
> I would think about giving the PC a second college (that is missing from
> the party say Earth), and for the player to shadow with Illusion too, so
> that the PC becomes dual college:
> >
>
> ________________________________
>
> No virus found in this message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com/>
> Version: 10.0.1410 / Virus Database: 1520/3902 - Release Date: 09/17/11
>

Both the Thieves' World material and "Learn magic by the month: DRAGONQUEST™ rules for studying spells" by Craig Barrett can be found in the DQN-list Files area under:

Thieves World DQ Rules Extract.pdf
DragonQuestMagicbytheMonth.pdf

JohnR, Co-moderator, dq-rules, DQN-list

--- In dq-rules@yahoogroups.com, "Bob S." <hzark10@...> wrote:
>
>
> The ability to have someone having access to 2 or more colleges comes from an old supplement, "Thieves World" and followed up by some magazine articles (I think Craig Barrett, but I could be wrong on that - i'll look for them).

Ooh, I like that.
As to the other replies, I ran my campaigns the same way - I just thought from the phrasing that there might have been something we missed. We ended up doing the switch Colleges method and allowed continued progress in the old College only for the spells they had learned while in that College.

--- In dq-rules@yahoogroups.com, Coyote Moon <khaiotimoon@...> wrote:
>
>  
> Another option (which I have used) is to include more than one of DQ's "colleges" in the mage's schooling, as long as it fits the story line. For example, a character who wanted to play a Druid-type character had access to both the Earth and Air magic colleges, as they were all part of the "Druid curriculum". No complications need to be added, just make it fit the plot...
>
> From: Ian Wood <dawnhaven@...>
> To: dq-rules@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Sunday, September 18, 2011 5:50 AM
> Subject: RE: [dq-rules] Re: END healing
>
>
>  
>
> I totally agree with Gabriel's approach in general, if the player is already
> enjoying playing, and wishes to change for some other reason.
>
> If however the player is struggling, or not enjoying it as much as we wish,
> which I believe is the case, then I would go for an immediate fix, and add
> to rather than replace, as Illusion is really hard and so wont over power
> the PC.
>
> Cheers Ian
>

Attachments :

Ups..., I forgot. Another requirement is MA 26. :D

We evade the powergaming on our parties. Imagine a Mage Namer and Black Magic in True Silver Armor and Giant Glaive! We got one and was boring to us. He had just 2 TMR (We called The Caterpiler) and lost all initiative test. He allways recive the fist blow, but not the second.

About Robert Aspring Thieves World, I saw very interesting to a plot for a campain (The box got maps of the city and all the component a GM need), but you have enough offer from DQ material to run a proper and rich campain.

Regards.

________________________________

De: dq-rules@yahoogroups.com en nombre de Ian Wood
Enviado el: dom 18/09/2011 6:50
Para: dq-rules@yahoogroups.com
Asunto: RE: [dq-rules] Re: END healing




I totally agree with Gabriel's approach in general, if the player is already
enjoying playing, and wishes to change for some other reason.

If however the player is struggling, or not enjoying it as much as we wish,
which I believe is the case, then I would go for an immediate fix, and add
to rather than replace, as Illusion is really hard and so wont over power
the PC.

Cheers Ian

> -----Original Message-----
> From: dq-rules@yahoogroups.com <mailto:dq-rules%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:dq-rules@yahoogroups.com <mailto:dq-rules%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf
> Of Gabriel Martinez
> Sent: Sunday, 18 September 2011 9:33 p.m.
> To: dq-rules@yahoogroups.com <mailto:dq-rules%40yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: RE: [dq-rules] Re: END healing
>
> About changing rules, as my coleegues described above, you must justify
> strongly. If you can convince the GM, we proceed in this way:
>
> Spend 6 month to get the new Magic Collegue in time.
> You must pay the trainer to lern. (Cost is given by the GM, depending the
> Mages avaible to teach)
> Lost all the spells except the counterspells, of the old college and the
> generic ones (Investment Ritual, Spell preparation, Purification Ritual,
> etc.)
>
> But in any case, I keep Ian's phrase and we parctice all the time:
>
>
> "The number one rule that is not in the rules is to subordinate all rules
> to the goal of having fun.
>
>
> Regards.
>
> Gabriel.
>
>
> ________________________________
>
> De: dq-rules@yahoogroups.com <mailto:dq-rules%40yahoogroups.com> en nombre de Ian Wood
> Enviado el: sáb 17/09/2011 18:05
> Para: dq-rules@yahoogroups.com <mailto:dq-rules%40yahoogroups.com>
> Asunto: RE: [dq-rules] Re: END healing
>
>
>
>
> Dual colleges isn't in the rules, I made it up as illusion is a very
> difficult college to play enjoyably. Most of the other colleges are quite
> simple to play, so seeing how as GM you can do anything you wish, I
> thought 'give them something else to do as well'.
>
>
>
> The alternative, more within the rules, is to give the PC some skills or
> weapons that they can do (although that may annoy the players of existing
> fighters), but the main thing is to create something they can enjoy.
>
>
>
> Another alternative is to allow the PC to change colleges, and redesign
> their characteristics. It would be good if there is a story line reason
> for the change, but the players will accept it as they want their friend
> to enjoy the game.
>
>
>
> The number one rule that is not in the rules is to subordinate all rules
> to the goal of having fun.
>
>
>
> Part of the job of GM is to interpret rules, and occasionally change them,
> in a consistent way, and in a way that makes the game fun.
>
> Such as deciding on 1 day per point of EN recovery rather than 3 or 4
> days.
>
>
>
> Cheers Ian
>
>
>
> ________________________________
>
> From: dq-rules@yahoogroups.com <mailto:dq-rules%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:dq-rules@yahoogroups.com <mailto:dq-rules%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf
> Of Bob Constans
> Sent: Sunday, 18 September 2011 6:43 a.m.
> To: dq-rules@yahoogroups.com <mailto:dq-rules%40yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: [dq-rules] Re: END healing
>
>
>
>
>
> Where in the rules is this about dual colleges? We often wondered about
> how to handle that, but could never find anything.
>
> --- In dq-rules@yahoogroups.com <mailto:dq-rules%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:dq-rules%40yahoogroups.com> , "Ian
> Wood" <dawnhaven@...> wrote:
> >
> I would think about giving the PC a second college (that is missing from
> the party say Earth), and for the player to shadow with Illusion too, so
> that the PC becomes dual college:
> >
>
> ________________________________
>
> No virus found in this message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com/>
> Version: 10.0.1410 / Virus Database: 1520/3902 - Release Date: 09/17/11
>

Apologies for the cross-post to those of you who already saw this on the dqn-list. I've been discussing this on that list and on my own occasional blog, but this is the larger of the two groups, so I know there are some people here who don't see posts to that group.

I am trying to see if there is enough support around the DQ community to crowdsource funding for the creation of a new DragonQuest adventure.

I introduced this idea earlier this summer, and then things got busy, and I haven't made much progress with it, but that's the point of the Kickstarter (or IndieGoGo, or whatever) venture; to be able to make some financial space in order to be able to spend some time on the idea. If it works out and I can get the support I'm looking for, the plan is to dedicate 20% of my time over a couple months to make this happen.

At the moment, I'm looking at three possible ideas for the adventure, and I'm interested in getting some feedback about which (if any) of these ideas have the most appeal. If you want a bit more description of each, read the article here:
https://rthorm.wordpress.com/2011/11/04/three-dq-adventure-kickstarter-ideas/

Your thoughts and feedback on the adventure ideas, and on the concept in general, are very welcome.

--Rodger

I like all three. I'll crowdfund any of 'em.

- Brock

--- In dq-rules@yahoogroups.com, "rthorm" <rthorm@...> wrote:
>
> Apologies for the cross-post to those of you who already saw this on the dqn-list. I've been discussing this on that list and on my own occasional blog, but this is the larger of the two groups, so I know there are some people here who don't see posts to that group.
>
> I am trying to see if there is enough support around the DQ community to crowdsource funding for the creation of a new DragonQuest adventure.
>
> I introduced this idea earlier this summer, and then things got busy, and I haven't made much progress with it, but that's the point of the Kickstarter (or IndieGoGo, or whatever) venture; to be able to make some financial space in order to be able to spend some time on the idea. If it works out and I can get the support I'm looking for, the plan is to dedicate 20% of my time over a couple months to make this happen.
>
> At the moment, I'm looking at three possible ideas for the adventure, and I'm interested in getting some feedback about which (if any) of these ideas have the most appeal. If you want a bit more description of each, read the article here:
> https://rthorm.wordpress.com/2011/11/04/three-dq-adventure-kickstarter-ideas/
>
> Your thoughts and feedback on the adventure ideas, and on the concept in general, are very welcome.
>
> --Rodger
>

The fundraiser to produce the Wilderness adventure is now launched:

http://www.indiegogo.com/The-Wilderness-of-A-a-DragonQuest-Adventure?a=323113

The basic goal is $750, for a smaller, less elaborate adventure, but I think it's a more achievable goal. If we significantly overshoot that goal, then the adventure will get larger and more elaborate.

I hope there's still enough interest in DragonQuest adventures that this will work out. In addition to asking for contributions, I'd really appreciate it if you would help spread the word about this project.

Best,

Rodger

I just read this blog post, which might be of interest:

http://gmskarka.com/2011/12/02/advent-of-the-insurgent-creative-day-two-kickstarter/

Gareth have some very interesting suggestions in there.

/andreas

Guys, I remember reading that Redbrick was kind of interested in doing an attempt at restart DQ. Considering the response to the fundraiser, I'd be very wary if I were them.

Anyone but me considering chipping in after the winter holidays are over?

-andreas

Attachments :

The fundraiser for the DQ adventure has already gone more than halfway towards it initial goal, with 51 days remaining. The 'hot start' target to get the entire base goal by the 15th wasn't reached, but that was a long shot anyhow, and I hope to still have a holiday piece for those who have contributed. I'll have more information about that on the site (http://igg.me/p/52524?a=323113) soon.

There were *two* different game companies that were looking at doing something with DragonQuest recently: Red Brick and Silver Gryphon.

I don't see that much connection between this adventure fundraiser project and their plans, though. Many more people would buy a completed game than would buy an adventure; that's always been true with the games industry.

Moreover, the fundraiser is getting contributions from people who are willing to pay in advance and to pay more than what purchasing a copy of an adventure would normally cost. They are doing this in order to support the project and to help bring it to fruition. That there is even this level of support for an essentially unknown author with very few industry contacts after only a couple weeks is, I think, more of a testament to the strength of the existing DQ community.

If anything, I think that someone who was considering a re-release or a retroclone of DQ would welcome a project like this, since it would provide some fresh material to accompany the release of the new game.

A couple people have indicated that they are holding off contributing until after the holidays, and maybe the timing of this fundraiser wasn't the wisest in that respect. But I think we're doing well with it so far, and I'm very optimistic about reaching the goal.

Thanks to those who have spread the word about the project. Even if you're still thinking about it, it's very useful to have you all helping get the word out to let more people know about this.

--Rodger Thorm

--- In dq-rules@yahoogroups.com, "koraq" <Koraq@...> wrote:
>
>
> Guys, I remember reading that Redbrick was kind of interested in doing an attempt at restart DQ. Considering the response to the fundraiser, I'd be very wary if I were them.
>
> Anyone but me considering chipping in after the winter holidays are over?
>
> -andreas
>

A draft of the Quick Character Generation system is now available.

One of the things I am planning to include with the 'Wilderness' adventure is a Quick Character Generation system that can be used to create more advanced characters. The adventure is going to be intended for a group of 3-5 Adventurer level characters, and people who are interested in playing the adventure but who don't have current DQ campaigns will be able to use this system to generate characters to use in the adventure.

If you'd like to take a look and offer your feedback (or even better, give this a playtest and let me know how it works), you can download it from the Wilderness site:

http://www.indiegogo.com/The-Wilderness-of-A-a-DragonQuest-Adventure?a=323113

If that doesn't work for you for some reason, email e and I can send you a copy of it directly.

--Rodger

Fair enough. And that's easy to revise. The "loot list" is the least developed portion of this, and I'd really like to have some further suggestions for additions to that part of the system.

I'm thinking more now that the numbers might be too generous, and I need to dial it back a little. Anyone going to playtest it during the holidays?

--RT

--- In dq-rules@yahoogroups.com, Michael Wright <horus67_1999@...> wrote:
>
> Hi mate hada quick look and it looks great...except...Studded leather armour...is a throw back from AD&D  it doesnt actually exist historically speaking.

[Apologies for the cross-post to those of you who also saw this on the DQN-list.]

The fundraiser for the production of a new DragonQuest adventure is almost over and will wrap up tomorrow night. We've already made the basic goal, but it would be great to make the stretch goal of $1500 in order to have at least a 32-page adventure (it's going to be min. 16 pages at this point).

We just got a preliminary map from our cartographer, Stephen Peto, and I've posted it on the IndieGoGo site, as well as on my blog. A lot of the detail in it is still unfinished (it's very much still a work in progress), but you can see the beginnings of SPI style in it already.

We've also had some discussion about the artist who is doing some illustration for the adventure, and you can find examples of his style on the site, as well.

http://www.indiegogo.com/The-Wilderness-of-A-a-DragonQuest-Adventure?a=323113

If you were thinking about contributing, but wanted to wait and see how it was going, now is the time to get in.

--Rodger

Hi everyone,
I am out of the Philadelphia area and haven't played in quite some time. Mostly played for a few years way back in the 80s with my fraternity in the 8th hell otherwise known as RPI. I see a few names I recognize in older posts. Thinking of resurrecting a Greyhawk-based DQ campaign in a few weeks when some of my relatives are in town.

Sorry for a few questions here -- there don't seem to be many recent posts.

I have some home-brewed stuff I can share. Would there be any interest in the topic of Adept new spell/ritual reasearch?

I see Rodger Thorm's adventure project -- how is that going Roger and it looks like contributions are closed -- is that correct?

Has there been any update(s) on a third-party reprint of DQ?

I think I saw that someone else was running a DQ campaign in Greyhawk. Would love to trade notes if anyone else out there is lurking and doing that and/or getting feedback. I did see a couple of documents in the files section regarding religion/priests and there is some similarity to what I had been thinking and recorded.

> Hi everyone,
> I am out of the Philadelphia area and haven't played in quite some time. Mostly played for a few years way back in the 80s with my fraternity in the 8th hell otherwise known as RPI.  I see a few names I recognize in older posts. Thinking > of resurrecting a Greyhawk-based DQ campaign in a few weeks when some of my relatives are in town.

Sounds fun!

I have been thinking more about DQ lately myself, and mostly about starting to play Forgotten Realms with DQ! D&D and DQ seem to go hand in hand, eh? :)\

/andreas

--

Old school, new school & always with an eye for T&T

http://theomnipotenteye.blogspot.com/

It wouldn't surprise me if someone already hasn't come up with something like this. I worked this up from my notes just in case you all feel it worthwhile to be discussed.

@Andreas I first cut my RPG teeth on Greyhak and it is <i>far</i> more developed than Alusia. Some would say that is constraining, but for me this a best of breeds approach :) Other house rules were inspired by C&S and Palladium.
************************************************
Magical Research
New Spell/Ritual Research

Requirements
Minimum MA 15
The Adept must be able to learn a new spell in accordance with rule 34.6.
The Adept has achieved master status in their college (at least 8 spells at level 8 or higher). Alternatively, we could go with the Adept has the Wizard skill and has achieved Archmage status (rank 10 in the skill) -- probably a much tougher standard than 8 8th level spells.

Mechanics
An Adept may attempt to research and discover new talents, spells and rituals for their college of magic. The Adept's ability to do so is strongly tied to the Adept's Magical Aptitude. All dice rolls made pertaining to magical research should be done by the GM and the results should not be conveyed to the Adept except in general terms (for example "it appears you made a breakthrough in research"). The Adept should be kept in the dark as to the overall progress of their research.

The base chance of a research breakthrough is 3 times Adjusted Magical Aptitude. Adjusted Magical Aptitude is the Magical Aptitude minus the number of general and special knowledge spells below rank 6. The amount of research points gained on a breakthrough is (MA-10). Magical aids such as an MA crystal do count for the purpose of calculating research points acquired.

A critical success roll gains the Adept either double the amount of research points or 15 research points whichever is greater.

A critical failure (greater than 40%) leads to a loss of D10+5 research points.

Once 100 research points have been accumulated by the Adept the GM should inform the player that they have successfully researched the spell or ritual and have acquired rank 0 with this new spell/ritual.

Costs in Time and Money
Im thinking that rule 87.4 can form the basis of costs in time and money to the Adept in researching a spell.

Collaborative Research
Adepts of the same college may combine their research efforts to increase the chance of a successful research breakthrough. There is a diminishing amount of returns in doing so.

If two adepts try and collaborate the base chance is:
2 times the sum of the Adjusted Magical Aptitude for each Adept

Collaborative research does not incease the rate or number of points gained per each breakthrough attempt. Each involved Adept still needs to pay the full costs in time and money over the entire research period or their participation is ignored.

Spell Prototyping (optional)
An Adept may want to try and research a spell that you as the GM will not permit. At the GMs discretion they may tell the Adept outright that it is not possible. The more laissez faire GM might allow the Adept to research until "When the sun rises in the west and sets in the east. When the seas go dry and mountains blow in the wind like leaves."

An alternative might be that the Adept might be allowed to do some initial research where they determine the feasibility of discovering the new spell or ritual. Once again rule 87.4 might serve the GM as to what is reasonable in terms of the cost in time and money to perform this task.

Other Options and thoughts that could be discussed...
The spell name should incorporate the Adept's name as part of the spell name. Successfully researching a new spell or ritual can bring renown/respect amongst the magic using community (at the least). If your gaming system has incorporated feats or honor points or other similar construct then successfully researching a spell or ritual should merit a bonus towards the Adept in this regard.

In much the same way that SPI materials describe books that assist with learning skills a GM might make text/tomes with other Adept's research results. Studying those texts might yield the Adept research points. Perhaps a rare tome might provide the GM an adventure hook.

Arcane Wisdom has Magical Research.

~Jeffery~

----- Original Message -----
From: <leckart4@comcast.net>
To: <dq-rules@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, May 25, 2012 8:35 PM
Subject: [dq-rules] Magical Research -- New Spell/Ritual Research


> It wouldn't surprise me if someone already hasn't come up with something
> like this. I worked this up from my notes just in case you all feel it
> worthwhile to be discussed.
>
> @Andreas I first cut my RPG teeth on Greyhak and it is <i>far</i> more
> developed than Alusia. Some would say that is constraining, but for me
> this a best of breeds approach :) Other house rules were inspired by C&S
> and Palladium.
> ************************************************

Hi!


I have been re-reading my grey box Forgotten Realms books, and more and more I feel like running a DQ game in Forgotten Realms.


To familiarize myself with the DQ rules, I have read the char gen rules again, and have found something I think is really oddly written.

In the second half of 5.2, starting with "Furthermore ..." it seems to say that if you allocate enough points to a stat to reach the group maximum, you can then deduce it by one or more in order to raise some other stats. It sounds a lot like putting points somewhere in order to be able to take them away again. I mean, why not just put them in the right place to begin with? You are allowed to allocate your points freely as long as you keep enough stats under the group max, right?

I'm pretty sure I see the way it is supposed to work from the example, but since it sounds so muddled to me I'm dead sure I'm missing the subtle point of the rule. Could someone try to rephrase 5.2 to me in order to make clear what I'm missing? If even that is made clear by these confused words...


Thankful for any input on the matter.


/andreas

--
Old school, new school & always with an eye for T&T
http://theomnipotenteye.blogspot.com/

A bit of a late welcome to the group (I have been on vacation), also consider joining the companion list, DQN-List, for general DragonQuest discussions. This group focusses on rules and additions to the game (although it tends to drift from that on occasion).

A more complete archive of previous Dragonquest material can be found in the DQN-List files area.

The Rodger's indiegogo campaign is indeed over and work has started on it. The last update I got on April 25th (as a funder) was a draft map (which is looking great), an example of layout, and the final name of the adventure that was chosen from contributor submissions.

I have not heard anything on reprints of the rules for some time.

JohnR, co-moderator dq-rules, dqn-list and universe_rpg

--- In dq-rules@yahoogroups.com, leckart4@... wrote:
>
> Hi everyone,

> I have some home-brewed stuff I can share. Would there be any interest in the topic of Adept new spell/ritual reasearch?
>
> I see Rodger Thorm's adventure project -- how is that going Roger and it looks like contributions are closed -- is that correct?
>
> Has there been any update(s) on a third-party reprint of DQ?
>
> I think I saw that someone else was running a DQ campaign in Greyhawk. Would love to trade notes if anyone else out there is lurking and doing that and/or getting feedback. I did see a couple of documents in the files section regarding religion/priests and there is some similarity to what I had been thinking and recorded.
>

There is an interesting bit of a crossover between FR (pre Time of Troubles) and DQ.

Paul Jaquays incorporated elements of his DQ Adventure "The Enchanted Wood" into his Forgotten Realms supplement "The Savage Frontier" (FR5, TSR-9233).

The Enchanted Wood became the Dire Wood.

--- In dq-rules@yahoogroups.com, Andreas Davour <Koraq@...> wrote:
>
> Hi!
>
>
> I have been re-reading my grey box Forgotten Realms books, and more and more I feel like running a DQ game in Forgotten Realms.
>

> There is an interesting bit of a crossover between FR (pre Time of Troubles) and DQ. 
>
> Paul Jaquays incorporated elements of his DQ Adventure "The Enchanted Wood" into his Forgotten Realms supplement "The Savage Frontier" (FR5, TSR-9233).
> The Enchanted Wood became the Dire Wood.

Yeah, that's neat. I own both and like them.


/andreas

Hi

In the college of black magic, the spell S-12 mention that the recipient of the spell has his virility increased by 5. What does that mean? I mean, there is no virility stat (thank god) and it's quite unclear what you apply that bonus to.

What have you, in your campaign used, if that spell has ever been used?


/andreas

--

Old school, new school & always with an eye for T&T
http://theomnipotenteye.blogspot.com/

Andreas,

We interpreted this to equate increased virility to increased fertility and therefore increased the chances of pregnancy. I spent lots of time fiddling with demographics and importing the rules from Chivalry & Sorcery to compute crop yields and population growth, so my players used this to increase the population of the areas they controlled.

Mark

Attachments :

With that spell, you can add 5% to the chance of pregnatcy. Even we eventually interpretate it as an add to the target pennis large. 1D10 inch. LoL

I hope someone give to that spell a usefull mean.

Regards.

Gabriel.


-----Mensaje original-----
De: dq-rules@yahoogroups.com en nombre de Andreas Davour
Enviado el: vie 08/06/2012 11:43
Para: dq-rules@yahoogroups.com
Asunto: [dq-rules] Rules puzzlements - Black Magic S-12



Hi

In the college of black magic, the spell S-12 mention that the recipient of the spell has his virility increased by 5. What does that mean? I mean, there is no virility stat (thank god) and it's quite unclear what you apply that bonus to.

What have you, in your campaign used, if that spell has ever been used?


/andreas

--

Old school, new school & always with an eye for T&T
http://theomnipotenteye.blogspot.com/

IMO you apply that to the pregnancy rate in your world/nation.

For example, when I started playing DQ the pregnancy rate in the US was
around 70/1000 or 7%. Adding 5 would make it 12%. I actually used 3% when
rolling for PCs that had partners and weren't utilizing any form of birth
control. Life happens.

There are PCs and NPCs that are great grand-parents in my campaign.

~Jeffery~

> Hi
>
> In the college of black magic, the spell S-12 mention that the recipient
> of the spell has his virility increased by 5. What does that mean? I mean,
> there is no virility stat (thank god) and it's quite unclear what you
> apply that bonus to.
>
> What have you, in your campaign used, if that spell has ever been used?
>
>
> /andreas
>
> --
>
> Old school, new school & always with an eye for T&T
> http://theomnipotenteye.blogspot.com/
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> To Post a message, send it to: dq-rules@eGroups.com
> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
> dq-rules-unsubscribe@eGroups.comYahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

Andreas Davour:

> In the college of black magic, the spell S-12 mention that the recipient
> of the spell has his virility increased by 5. What does that mean? I mean,
> there is no virility stat (thank god) and it's quite unclear what you
> apply that bonus to.

I personally assume that it adds 5% (+5% per Rank) to the Fertility of the
recipient in the same manner as as T-3 E.

Just wanted to share something and typed these up from some old notes I have.

Jeff you were looking for some Shelob stats. That was a few weeks ago and I imagine you dont need them now but if you do I did run across a writeup in the House of Kurin. I will probably work up something a bit tougher ("Mirkwood" spiders) as an additional special encounter in the Enchanted Wood.

WARHORSE, HEAVY
Natural Habitat: bred
Frequency: uncommon Number: Not applicable
Movement Rates: Running: 400
PS: 55-60 MD: None AG: 14-17 MA: None
EN: 30-35 FT: 60-70 WP: 9 11 PC: 16-18
PB: 9 11 TMR: 10 NA: Hide absorbs 3 DP
Weapons: Kick (BC 50%, D10+8 Damage) or Bite (BC 30%, D10+2 Damage).
Trample in close combat (BC 30% D10+9 Damage

WARHORSE, MEDIUM
Natural Habitat: bred
Frequency: uncommon Number: Not applicable
Movement Rates: Running: 450
PS: 48-55 MD: None AG: 16-19 MA: None
EN: 25-30 FT: 50-60 WP: 9 11 PC: 16-18
PB: 9 11 TMR: 11 NA: Hide absorbs 3 DP
Weapons: Kick (BC 50%, D10+7Damage) or Bite (BC 30%, D10+1 Damage).
Trample in close combat (BC 30% D10+8 Damage

WARHORSE, LIGHT
Natural Habitat: bred
Frequency: uncommon Number: Not applicable
Movement Rates: Running: 500
PS: 40-47 MD: None AG: 18-21 MA: None
EN: 20-25 FT: 40-50 WP: 9 11 PC: 16-18
PB: 9 11 TMR: 12 NA: Hide absorbs 3 DP
Weapons: Kick (BC 50%, D10+6 Damage) or Bite (BC 30%, D10 Damage).
Trample in close combat (BC 30% D10+7 Damage

NIGHTMARE
Natural Habitat: the hells
Frequency: rare Number: Not applicable
Talents, Skills and Magic:
Use stats as either a Heavy or Medium warhorse with the following adjustments
+2 AG, +10 WP, +10 PC, NA7, Movement +50
Optional Rule: To those whom they will serve, Nightmares are highly responsive
Chance of being Fine 40%, Superb 30%, Noble 20%, Great 10%
Weapons:
Kick as Medium or Heavy Warhorse ranks 0-4
Bite as Medium or Heavy Warhorse ranks 0-2
Trample as Medium or Heavy Warhorse ranks 0-4
Breath 5' wide at base x 20' cone D10+8 damage 1-5 times/day


OPTIONAL RULES (INSPIRATION FROM CHIVALRY AND SORCERY)
PS EN/FAT AG WP PC BC
FINE +2 +1 +1 +1 +1 +5%
SUPERB +5 +3 +2 +2 +2 +8%
NOBLE +7 +5 +3 +3 +3 +12%
GREAT +10 +7 +4 +4 +4 +15%

I think you mean "The Treasure of Socantri" not the House of Kurin. There is a 2nd edition compatiable version in the files section on DQN-List

JohnR

--- In dq-rules@yahoogroups.com, leckart4@... wrote:

> Jeff you were looking for some Shelob stats. That was a few weeks ago and I imagine you dont need them now but if you do I did run across a writeup in the House of Kurin. I will probably work up something a bit tougher ("Mirkwood" spiders) as an additional special encounter in the Enchanted Wood.
>

(Tardy) Welcome!

Always interested in seeing what others have come up with for DQ in the absence of official support.

Phil

--- In dq-rules@yahoogroups.com, leckart4@... wrote:
>
> Hi everyone,
> I am out of the Philadelphia area and haven't played in quite some time. Mostly played for a few years way back in the 80s with my fraternity in the 8th hell otherwise known as RPI. I see a few names I recognize in older posts. Thinking of resurrecting a Greyhawk-based DQ campaign in a few weeks when some of my relatives are in town.
>
> Sorry for a few questions here -- there don't seem to be many recent posts.
>
> I have some home-brewed stuff I can share. Would there be any interest in the topic of Adept new spell/ritual reasearch?
>
> I see Rodger Thorm's adventure project -- how is that going Roger and it looks like contributions are closed -- is that correct?
>
> Has there been any update(s) on a third-party reprint of DQ?
>
> I think I saw that someone else was running a DQ campaign in Greyhawk. Would love to trade notes if anyone else out there is lurking and doing that and/or getting feedback. I did see a couple of documents in the files section regarding religion/priests and there is some similarity to what I had been thinking and recorded.
>

I'm curious as to how GM's justify allowing PCs to take Black Magic (or Greater Summoning). Unless you throw out the college restrictions that balance them the PCs would be unmistakably evil. There is no grey area for those two colleges.

As one-shots or limited campaigns I could see it but to my way of thinking any pretense of role-playing would go out the window if a light-aligned PC spent more than an adventure or two in cooperation with these agents of darkness.

For me these have two colleges have always been for NPCs only.

--- In dq-rules@yahoogroups.com, Andreas Davour <Koraq@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> Hi
>
> In the college of black magic, the spell S-12 mention that the recipient of the spell has his virility increased by 5. What does that mean? I mean, there is no virility stat (thank god) and it's quite unclear what you apply that bonus to.
>
> What have you, in your campaign used, if that spell has ever been used?
>
>
> /andreas
>
> --
>
> Old school, new school & always with an eye for T&T
> http://theomnipotenteye.blogspot.com/
>

IMO they aren't unmistakeably evil. Could easily be grey. GS & BM aren't
automatically agents of Darkness. It all depends on how players play them.
They have to operate with the party, so they have to get along. Black
Magics has some beneficial spells and Special Alchemy has many beneficial
results.

Also, define Light Aligned. I would say most of the groups I've GMed/played
with would be defined as grey, some more than others.

Greater Summoning: There are a lot of Demons that don't require a
sacrifice; Sallos is popular. It is not a college I allow lightly.
Black Magic: Depends on the PC. Had one player who almost always ran a
Blackmage; the one time he ran a non-mage with a pet dog, it was hysterical
when the rest of the group found out. This player also backfired the Call
Master spell three times in one evening; each time the result was "26-35
Your spell reverses". The first two times the Master took something and
sent him back to the his own plane/dimension; the third time the PC became a
permanent 'guest' of the Master. For some reason Blackmages have a short
life-span, with some exceptions.

That said, Greater Summoning is considered illegal in my campaign, so PCs
not only have to worry about making mistakes, they have to worry about the
legal authorities and mobs.
Black Mages have to be registered. Did have one PC that because of bad
experiences with both PC Black Mages (see above player) and NPC ones would
instantly attack anyone she identified as a Black Mage. She later became a
goddess: Keenlana Blackbane, Goddess of Sex and Violence.

Curious on your views of a PC Assassin. Seems to me that would also fall
under your unmistakably evil heading.

I ran a PC (later an NPC) that was a sociopathic Necromancer that was
popular with the players (especially the female players) for some reason.
He never was a regular member of a party.

~Jeffery~

> I'm curious as to how GM's justify allowing PCs to take Black Magic (or
> Greater Summoning). Unless you throw out the college restrictions that
> balance them the PCs would be unmistakably evil. There is no grey area
> for those two colleges.
>
> As one-shots or limited campaigns I could see it but to my way of thinking
> any pretense of role-playing would go out the window if a light-aligned PC
> spent more than an adventure or two in cooperation with these agents of
> darkness.
>
> For me these have two colleges have always been for NPCs only.
>
>
> --- In dq-rules@yahoogroups.com, Andreas Davour <Koraq@...> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> Hi
>>
>> In the college of black magic, the spell S-12 mention that the recipient
>> of the spell has his virility increased by 5. What does that mean? I
>> mean, there is no virility stat (thank god) and it's quite unclear what
>> you apply that bonus to.
>>
>> What have you, in your campaign used, if that spell has ever been used?
>>
>>
>> /andreas
>>
>> --
>>
>> Old school, new school & always with an eye for T&T
>> http://theomnipotenteye.blogspot.com/
>>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> To Post a message, send it to: dq-rules@eGroups.com
> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
> dq-rules-unsubscribe@eGroups.comYahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

Right. Which is why I said "...they have always been for NPCs only."

--- In dq-rules@yahoogroups.com, Michael Wright <horus67_1999@...> wrote:
>
> bad guys need colleges too!
>
>
> From: darkislephil <darkislephil@...>
> To: dq-rules@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Saturday, 23 June 2012 11:06 AM
> Subject: [dq-rules] Re: Rules puzzlements - Black Magic S-12
>
>
>  
> I'm curious as to how GM's justify allowing PCs to take Black Magic (or Greater Summoning). Unless you throw out the college restrictions that balance them the PCs would be unmistakably evil. There is no grey area for those two colleges.
>
> As one-shots or limited campaigns I could see it but to my way of thinking any pretense of role-playing would go out the window if a light-aligned PC spent more than an adventure or two in cooperation with these agents of darkness.
>
> For me these have two colleges have always been for NPCs only.
>
> --- In mailto:dq-rules%40yahoogroups.com, Andreas Davour <Koraq@> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > Hi
> >
> > In the college of black magic, the spell S-12 mention that the recipient of the spell has his virility increased by 5. What does that mean? I mean, there is no virility stat (thank god) and it's quite unclear what you apply that bonus to.
> >
> > What have you, in your campaign used, if that spell has ever been used?
> >
> >
> > /andreas
> >
> > --
> >
> > Old school, new school & always with an eye for T&T
> > http://theomnipotenteye.blogspot.com/
> >
>

--- In dq-rules@yahoogroups.com, "Jeffery McGonagill" <igmod@...> wrote:

>
> IMO they aren't unmistakeably evil. Could easily be grey. GS & BM aren't
> automatically agents of Darkness. It all depends on how players play them.

46. The College of Black Magic
1. The First Pact: Upon entering this College, the Adept swears an oath of allegiance to the Powers of Darkness.
2. The Lesser Pact: In order to learn the Special Knowledge of the College of Black Magics, the Adept must make the Lesser Pact. This pact consists of reaffirming the Adept's allegiance and giving up a token of that allegiance to the Powers of Darkness.
3. The Greater Pact: If the Adept wants to learn those spells and rituals that compose the part of the Special Knowledge of this College that he has been denied access to, he must make the Greater Pact and sell his soul to the Powers of Darkness.

Not sure how you could interpret that any way but as being an agent of Darkness.  Their power (knowledge) comes from their pact with the Powers of Darkness.  These oaths aren't like joining the Elks Club.  These oaths are sworn in a world where magic and gods exist.  There are consequences to making and breaking these oaths.  There are a number of spells that have increased effects or only have effects on dark-aligned creatures.  Black Mages suffer from those effects.

> They have to operate with the party, so they have to get along.

Which means what?  Because they can behave some of the time they aren't bad?

> Black Magics has some beneficial spells and Special Alchemy
> has many beneficial results.

Evil frequently presents an attractive face in order to attract followers.   Having spells that can aid versus harm has little or no bearing on whether or not the caster or source of the casters power is evil.

> Also, define Light Aligned. I would say most of the groups I've GMed/played
> with would be defined as grey, some more than others.

Though only covered briefly in the original books Arcane Wisdom defined it as:

Creatures of Light are entities that the GM may have designated as having an affinity with the Power of Light, which are normally associated with what we would term "good." Any member of a character race may be known as a Servant of Light, which means he will value the doing of good and the prevention of evil above all other things. This allegiance may be declared in any manner the GM desires within his world.

It goes on to say:

Any member of a character race may be known to be aligned with Darkness, in which case he will be inherently evil.

But, yes, most player groups and, indeed, most occupants of the DQ world tend to fall in the middle gray area.  Their allegiances are to themselves and not to any higher or noble cause.

> Greater Summoning: There are a lot of Demons that don't require a
>  sacrifice; Sallos is popular. It is not a college I allow lightly.

Whether or not a sacrifice is required in exchange for some favor, Demons are of the Darkness.  Their motivations would, ultimately, always be to influence someone towards Darkness or just to get the summoner's soul.  Certainly a nominally good person could choose to treat with a Demon in order to obtain, say, a cure for a fatally ill loved one but that exchange would be tainted by the Darkness and there would be a heavy cost paid somewhere down the line.

Necromantic Conjurations falls into more of a gray area.  No oaths or sacrifices to the Powers of Darkness.  That holidays associated with the Powers of Light reduce their power would indicate that Light is in opposition to them but probably much as one element may be in opposition to another.  They do not gain from the Holidays for the Powers of Darkness but instead from their own holidays.  Of the Lesser and Greater Undead, Arcane Wisdom only places Vampires into the Dark aligned category.  A necromancer would have a tendency to slide into darkness and evil the longer they pursued their studies in the boundaries of life and death.  In a typical DQ society the necromancer would not be looked on favorably and might even be banned as most folks find it disturbing when their relatives are dug up for some necromancers experiments.  Arcane Wisdom addressed this as well in 97. Magic System Designer's Notes.

> Curious on your views of a PC Assassin. Seems to me that would also fall
> under your unmistakably evil heading.

The DQ Assassin is a skill set that has no supernatural or magical abilities thus it doesn't have an inherent association with either Light or Darkness.   A character taking the Assassin skill determines their alignment with Light or Darkness by their actions.  The DQ rules for the Assassin skill address this briefly.  For the most part, a character with the Assassin skill is just a more deadly fighter.  Nothing was provided in the rules to describe how a character might provide assassination services or get contracts for same.  Any character could kill someone solely for money and thus be an assassin with or without the skill set.  I've never had anyone take the skill and then actually seek out contracts for hits.

A character that did accept contracts to kill for money would sooner or later find themselves hunted by the authorities (unless they did it for those same authorities).  Other characters with strong ties to the Light would refuse to associate with them if they knew of the assassin's actions.

Obviously a long, involved philosophical discussion can be had on when is the line crossed.   Or even if there is a line.  Is an assassin that only kills evil creatures evil.  What about an assassin that only killed criminals.  What about an assassin that killed an innocent child but by doing so prevents a horrific war in which thousands or millions of innocents would die.  And so on and so forth.

----- Original Message -----

From: John Rauchert

To: dq-rules@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Saturday, June 23, 2012 1:10 PM

Subject: RE: [dq-rules] Re: Rules puzzlements - Black Magic S-12

This of course excludes campaigns where all the player characters are “Gray” or Dark Aligned in some way.

 

I have played in some over the years in various RPG systems.

 

My first DQ campaign character was a Necromancer (and I think we had both a member of the college of Black Magics and Greater Summonings as well).

 

My Necromancer was a sadly, misunderstood individual, drawn to death in early life due to being Death Aspected, and not quite sure why everyone was repulsed by him when he was only trying to help out when he raised those dead party members.

 

JohnR

 

From: dq-rules@yahoogroups.com [mailto:dq-rules@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of darkislephil
Sent: June-22-12 7:07 PM
To: dq-rules@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [dq-rules] Re: Rules puzzlements - Black Magic S-12

 

 

I'm curious as to how GM's justify allowing PCs to take Black Magic (or Greater Summoning). Unless you throw out the college restrictions that balance them the PCs would be unmistakably evil. There is no grey area for those two colleges.

As one-shots or limited campaigns I could see it but to my way of thinking any pretense of role-playing would go out the window if a light-aligned PC spent more than an adventure or two in cooperation with these agents of darkness.

For me these have two colleges have always been for NPCs only.

----- Original Message -----

From: darkislephil

To: dq-rules@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Saturday, June 23, 2012 12:21 PM

Subject: [dq-rules] Re: Rules puzzlements - Black Magic S-12

--- In dq-rules@yahoogroups.com, "Jeffery McGonagill" <igmod@...> wrote:
>
> IMO they aren't unmistakeably evil. Could easily be grey. GS & BM aren't
> automatically agents of Darkness. It all depends on how players play them.

46. The College of Black Magic
1. The First Pact: Upon entering this College, the Adept swears an oath of allegiance to the Powers of Darkness.
2. The Lesser Pact: In order to learn the Special Knowledge of the College of Black Magics, the Adept must make the Lesser Pact. This pact consists of reaffirming the Adept's allegiance and giving up a token of that allegiance to the Powers of Darkness.
3. The Greater Pact: If the Adept wants to learn those spells and rituals that compose the part of the Special Knowledge of this College that he has been denied access to, he must make the Greater Pact and sell his soul to the Powers of Darkness.

Not sure how you could interpret that any way but as being an agent of Darkness.  Their power (knowledge) comes from their pact with the Powers of Darkness.  These oaths aren't like joining the Elks Club.  These oaths are sworn in a world where magic and gods exist.  There are consequences to making and breaking these oaths.  There are a number of spells that have increased effects or only have effects on dark-aligned creatures.  Black Mages suffer from those effects.

> They have to operate with the party, so they have to get along.

Which means what?  Because they can behave some of the time they aren't bad?

> Black Magics has some beneficial spells and Special Alchemy
> has many beneficial results.

Evil frequently presents an attractive face in order to attract followers.   Having spells that can aid versus harm has little or no bearing on whether or not the caster or source of the casters power is evil.

> Also, define Light Aligned. I would say most of the groups I've GMed/played
> with would be defined as grey, some more than others.

Though only covered briefly in the original books Arcane Wisdom defined it as:

Creatures of Light are entities that the GM may have designated as having an affinity with the Power of Light, which are normally associated with what we would term "good." Any member of a character race may be known as a Servant of Light, which means he will value the doing of good and the prevention of evil above all other things. This allegiance may be declared in any manner the GM desires within his world.

It goes on to say:

Any member of a character race may be known to be aligned with Darkness, in which case he will be inherently evil.

But, yes, most player groups and, indeed, most occupants of the DQ world tend to fall in the middle gray area.  Their allegiances are to themselves and not to any higher or noble cause.

> Greater Summoning: There are a lot of Demons that don't require a
>  sacrifice; Sallos is popular. It is not a college I allow lightly.

Whether or not a sacrifice is required in exchange for some favor, Demons are of the Darkness.  Their motivations would, ultimately, always be to influence someone towards Darkness or just to get the summoner's soul.  Certainly a nominally good person could choose to treat with a Demon in order to obtain, say, a cure for a fatally ill loved one but that exchange would be tainted by the Darkness and there would be a heavy cost paid somewhere down the line.

Necromantic Conjurations falls into more of a gray area.  No oaths or sacrifices to the Powers of Darkness.  That holidays associated with the Powers of Light reduce their power would indicate that Light is in opposition to them but probably much as one element may be in opposition to another.  They do not gain from the Holidays for the Powers of Darkness but instead from their own holidays.  Of the Lesser and Greater Undead, Arcane Wisdom only places Vampires into the Dark aligned category.  A necromancer would have a tendency to slide into darkness and evil the longer they pursued their studies in the boundaries of life and death.  In a typical DQ society the necromancer would not be looked on favorably and might even be banned as most folks find it disturbing when their relatives are dug up for some necromancers experiments.  Arcane Wisdom addressed this as well in 97. Magic System Designer's Notes.

> Curious on your views of a PC Assassin. Seems to me that would also fall
> under your unmistakably evil heading.

The DQ Assassin is a skill set that has no supernatural or magical abilities thus it doesn't have an inherent association with either Light or Darkness.   A character taking the Assassin skill determines their alignment with Light or Darkness by their actions.  The DQ rules for the Assassin skill address this briefly.  For the most part, a character with the Assassin skill is just a more deadly fighter.  Nothing was provided in the rules to describe how a character might provide assassination services or get contracts for same.  Any character could kill someone solely for money and thus be an assassin with or without the skill set.  I've never had anyone take the skill and then actually seek out contracts for hits.

A character that did accept contracts to kill for money would sooner or later find themselves hunted by the authorities (unless they did it for those same authorities).  Other characters with strong ties to the Light would refuse to associate with them if they knew of the assassin's actions.

Obviously a long, involved philosophical discussion can be had on when is the line crossed.   Or even if there is a line.  Is an assassin that only kills evil creatures evil.  What about an assassin that only killed criminals.  What about an assassin that killed an innocent child but by doing so prevents a horrific war in which thousands or millions of innocents would die.  And so on and so forth.

On 6/22/2012 8:06 PM, darkislephil wrote:

> I'm curious as to how GM's justify allowing PCs to take Black Magic
> (or Greater Summoning). Unless you throw out the college restrictions
> that balance them the PCs would be unmistakably evil. There is no grey
> area for those two colleges.
>
> As one-shots or limited campaigns I could see it but to my way of
> thinking any pretense of role-playing would go out the window if a
> light-aligned PC spent more than an adventure or two in cooperation
> with these agents of darkness.
>
> For me these have two colleges have always been for NPCs only.

I've GM'd two campaigns where there has been a Black Mage in the party.
The first group had several characters that were definitely evil (one
being the Black Mage) with the rest of the party falling into the gray
area. Over the first few adventures, the two of them caused enough
strife in the party that when some ill befell the two of them, the rest
of the party just walked away and left them to their fate. At the time,
the Black Mage had been severely injured and the other player sold him
into slavery to pay for his healing. He then proceeded to abandon him as
well. It seemed a fitting fate at the time.

The second campaign with a Black Mage I would say the group was
extremely loyal to each other, but if you crossed them, watch out. Over
the course of their adventuring lives, they had to made large scale
relocations (different continents in one case) more than once when
entire regions came out for their blood. As time progressed, they began
to mellow and definitely fell more into the neutral area with occasional
bouts of good. I remember one particularity nasty chase through a small
cities streets with the Black Mage reigning down hellfire on random
business in an attempt to lose the angry mob after them. This second
campaign though was also my most successful. It was while I was in the
Navy and my group played 5 nights as week (10pm to 6am) and it lasted
almost 3 years. (Ah to be young and single and working a job where you
were captive to your bosses whims). The Black Mage, a Thief and myself
were stationed together for the entire 3 years, and we had anywhere from
an additional 2-4 others playing with us at any given time. I can also
safely say that DQ REALLY breaks down when characters amass that much
exp. We had more house rules by the end than you can imagine. All in
all though it was really a blast.

I do think it's a hard college to play though to be honest. The Selling
your soul for your powers thing alone will make for shorter lifespans
for the player. One screw up and you have little to no chance to be
raised and will find yourself rolling up a new character.

The only college I've ever relegated to NPC only has been Shapers. In a
low level, low power campaign, it can be managed, but as players
progress in power and amass any sort of wealth, it will completely
destroy your campaign. I had one player that played one and after 2
years of playing him I had to sit him down one day and say I'm sorry,
but your going to have to retire your character and roll up a new one.
Because he was destroying the campaign. He was disappointed, but
understood why and actually agreed with me (and had actually mentioned
it to me more than once before) and rolled himself up a Water Mage as a
replacement.

As long as it contributes to plot and/or characterisation, anything goes. More powerful PCs are balanced by the GM introducing larger scale powers or stakes when PCs are powerful. The only real question in incorporating seemingly incompatible characters is does it destroy the player's fun or break up the player group.

I has great fun using a vampire NPC amongst "good" characters, who endangered them with his personal vendetta against rogue vampires. The PCs' growing unease about their benefactor and eventual discovery was delicious for all.

In my most recent campaign, summoners on both sides of a war has started escalating the stakes by summoning heroes. Who knows where that could end up?
Adrian

--- In dq-rules@yahoogroups.com, "darkislephil" <darkislephil@...> wrote:
>
> I'm curious as to how GM's justify allowing PCs to take Black Magic (or Greater Summoning). Unless you throw out the college restrictions that balance them the PCs would be unmistakably evil. There is no grey area for those two colleges.
>
> As one-shots or limited campaigns I could see it but to my way of thinking any pretense of role-playing would go out the window if a light-aligned PC spent more than an adventure or two in cooperation with these agents of darkness.
>
> For me these have two colleges have always been for NPCs only.
>
>
> --- In dq-rules@yahoogroups.com, Andreas Davour <Koraq@> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > Hi
> >
> > In the college of black magic, the spell S-12 mention that the recipient of the spell has his virility increased by 5. What does that mean? I mean, there is no virility stat (thank god) and it's quite unclear what you apply that bonus to.
> >
> > What have you, in your campaign used, if that spell has ever been used?
> >
> >
> > /andreas
> >
> > --
> >
> > Old school, new school & always with an eye for T&T
> > http://theomnipotenteye.blogspot.com/
> >
>