Excellent topic Ted.
I've played in campaigns run by both Phil and Jeffery as well as GM'ed a spin-off from Phil's "world" and GM'ed in Jeffery's "world", and lastly, I've played a Shaper.
I think what the GM needs to decide, is, how prevalent is magic and probably more importantly, the ramifications of the prevalence (both to game balance and "social" or in-game).
Example1: Phil's world had a lot of "standard" investments (or relatively easy access to get them) and very few "always on" (or Shaped or even Permanent Investments) items (also, the "quick-kill" spells were not available to either the players or GM, e.g. White Fire). I can't ever remember meeting a Shaper in Phil's world. From a game balance point of view, this works well in that if a player gets their hands on an unbalancingly-powerful investment, it eventually, runs out of charges (thus it is not a "permanent" problem). On the Social Side, Magic was accepted and
while not necessarily common in the general populace, the player's being mages, were not viewed with suspicion or fear (unless they got their reputation by earning it in play)
Example2: Jeffery's world, Shapers are known to exist and players can get to know them (and even play them), so it is possible to commission and "find" Shaped Items (Shaping is run pretty close to straight out of Arcane Wisdom). This World's history has had magic running amok through too much power and magic and basically countries bombing themselves and their neighbors into the stone age. This has created a "fear" in the general populace of magic in general. Powerful Shaped Items exist and could be found and obtained by the players, but the players had to be careful how much "flash" they did in "public" due to the possible back lash.. Shaped items were occasionally discovered on Adventure (this is limited by the GM) and could be purchased/commissioned. The commissioning of
Shaped Items can be limited by the GM. The "level" of the Shapers available to Players (and the populace) needs to be considered and can be controlled by the GM. Please note, to make Shaped Items, there are a LOT of rituals a that a Shaper will need to Rank. This will take a LONG time and a great deal of experience (see Shaper Player comments below), so if you take this into account as GM, there should not be too many Shapers around that can create unbalancing items (and even fewer who are willing to create them). Also, it takes a long time to MAKE unbalancing items (and the Shaper can die in the process), so open "slots" in a Shaper's schedule could (should?) be few and far between even for the "low level" Shaped Items. Also, the more powerful the Shaped item, the longer it takes to make, and thus the higher the chance of an `Accident' (which provides another way to balance the potentially unbalancing). We did have an "amusing" player reaction to this,
in that one player started seeking out Shaping Accidents. On the balance side, Jeffery has a known rule, what the Players Use is Fair Game for the GM to use (e.g. if the players don't go throwing quick-kill spells, the GM won't either, so contrary to Phil's world just removing these spells, Jeffery's world has created détente between the GM and Players). Lastly, Shaping is EXPENSIVE (there used to be a spreadsheet in the DQ forum from Jeffery's game were you can see the difference in prices from a `regular' invested item to a `permanently' invested item to a `Shaped' item).
Example3: My spin-off from Phil's world (new dimension, new planet, new social norms, etc.). Shaping was "rare" but available. It was also hideously expensive and Shaper's tended to have a waiting list in the decades (even to make "just" permanent investments). Balance was provided by "The Mage Guild" which was the Government of one country and tried to tightly control
teaching and use of magic as well as Items everywhere. If things had ever gotten too out of balance, a "handful" of high ranking Elemental Mages with their Elementals at their back could have been used to `politely' ask for the item in question.
As a player, I played a Shaper for 5 real years (and something like 10 game years). In the beginning, a Shaper Player Character seems to become a front line fighter (no ranged attack spells, but the best enchant armor/weapons spells in the game coupled with better than `regular' investment ritual (lower EXP and higher success chance)). The MA requirement for the college is pretty high, so I was always bumping into the MA-Spell/Ritual requirement and thus kept spending a lot of EXP and training ranking things up to R6 that were not particularly unbalancing (it's the Special Knowledge Rituals that get "interesting", not the General one's). Thus the first couple real years (4-5 game years), this college
seems to pose no problems. Then I started learning the Special Knowledge Rituals. The first SK-Ritual I learned was Permanent Investment. This put an end to the rest of the rest of the party needing to spend time investing spells (until they went up in rank). The GM also started charging my Character more for invested items for sale by NPC's (since the NPC's knew I was a Shaper and wouldn't be coming back  ). Another possible way to address this would be to say that the `regular' investment spell had to be done "differently" for (or simultaneously with) the Permanent Investment ritual (this would have prevented our party from immediately turning all found investments permanent, but this Player is NOT suggesting it to his GM  who is reading this thread). While this College could get unbalancing, the Character needed to own land for a Shop, spend money on a shop, and `defend' his shop. Couple this with 3 months of game time to
create the MINIMUM Shaped Item and the corresponding Accident Rolls, and I think the Player Character unbalancing effects can be limited. My character might dream of making an Uber-Weapon, but the most advanced Shaping he ever did was 3 of the Demonic Shields (payment for construction of his "small" shop, Jeffery, stop laughing ) and a couple of Shaped Enchant Armor items. (though Rag and String golems are interesting). BTW, after about 10 game years of playing, the character basically retired due to many factors, but one them was he really wanted to make cool items and Adventuring kept getting in the way.
In short, as long as the GM doesn't make High Level Shaper's Common and willing to make things PLUS the players advance at a `moderate' rate (and keep track of the time it takes to advance in rituals to really make things), I'm haven't found Shaping (and thus the creation of "always on" items) to be
unbalancing.
David
--- In
dq-rules@yahoogroups.com, "Ted" <tmckelvey77089@...> wrote:
>
> Ah, gotcha.
>
> I may have to make a similar change to the rules.
>
> The core rules and AW specifically reference the investment rituals by rule number as well terminology in regards to shaping preparation rituals and that's been the basis of my interpretation. And yes, as written in regards to spells, the shaping is just another way to have invested spells included in an item along with other abilities, as opposed to a regular investment which can only do the one thing.
>
> I was curious as to how extensive a change other groups have made. Certainly requires some rewrites no matter how you cut it.
>
> As I expected, seems
like groups either accept that it cant be done by regular shaping as printed, or they just delete and rewrite the inhibiting rules. Getting alot more feedback supporting the former and laying those kinds of items out as not-shapeable but have to be found if even that.
>
> Good stuff. Haven't thought about this stuff in a while.
>
>
> --- In
dq-rules@yahoogroups.com, "Jeffery McGonagill" <igmod@> wrote:
> >
> > My group's interpretation is that permanently invested as stated below does
> > not mean Investment as per the ritual or R-6, otherwise the shaping index is
> > redundant for magic. Skills, characteristics don't have to be activated, so
> > magic shouldn't either (unless it is an attack spell.)
> >
> > For my group, simply drawing the weapon activates a Artifact's weapon magic.
> > An amulet (Artifact) with a counterspell in it is always on while worn, etc.
> >
> > Popular in my world is Mind Cloak (also protects a person from Location
> > spells.) Usually the first Artifact purchased in my world when a PC can
> > afford it.
> >
> > ~Jeffery~
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Ted" <tmckelvey77089@>
> > To: <
dq-rules@yahoogroups.com>
> > Sent: Wednesday, June 08, 2011 7:03 AM
> > Subject: [dq-rules] Re: "always on" magic items
> >
> >
> > > Could be. Which part of those rules allows for shaping a spell
that is
> > > constantly running? Maybe I'm missing something.. Thats why these forums
> > > are so useful! Glad to hear other GMs point of view.
> > >
> > > I was looking at it from the point of view of the rules clause under
> > > shaping's Preparation Rituals that states that a "... item enchanted with
> > > a spell allows the wielder to use it as if was permanently invested..".
> > > According to Shaping Q-4 Ritual of Investment and R-6 Binding Investment
> > > rituals, that means it can be used an unlimited number of times, but
> > > anyone using it still has to check to see if the spell goes off
> > > successfully each time it is used.
> > >
> > > Am I misinterpreting those rules or missing something somewhere?
> > >
> > > Was thinking that modifying one or both of those
rules was the way to go
> > > if I wanted to make it possible by Shapers.
> > >
> > >
> > > On a side note, as I read those rules, they make it impossible to shape
> > > spells that affect other people directly but then allow permanent
> > > investment of those same 'kill' spells. The investment method is actually
> > > easier and quicker than shaping them assuming someone has the Binding
> > > Investments SK ritual. I suppose that is a form off game balance...
> > > LoJust deny shapers the ability to learn that ritual.
> > >
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > > Ted
> >
>