I apologize if the formatting is off in this, I'm pasting out of some
word documents.

Here is a breakdown from my system. My system started out pure DQ back
in the olden days when DQ was a spry new game, over the years and
countless hours (easily thousands of hours) of playing the system has
morphed quite a bit. One of the requests early on as my campaign
progress was just this. The ability to learn specific skills. Below is
the chart I came up with. On top of this, each profession is given a
multiple for each category. So, for example, the thief class has the
following:

*Skill Multiples*
Animal: 2
Arcane: 3
Body Development: 1.5
Combat: 2
Crafts: 2.5
Interpersonal: 1
Knowledge: 1.5
Magic: 3
Mental Development: 3
Outdoor: 2
Perception: 1
Physical: 1
Psionic: 3
Thief: 1
Water 2

What this means is thieves pay the exp multiple for all the skills in
that category. I.e. Animal Skills has a multiple of x2 so everything in
that category costs twice the listed amount, For example, Animal healer
costs them 1000, Arcane skills are x3 so Direction Sense, which has a
multiple of 250, costs 250 x 3 = a cost of 750 and so on.


_Animal Skills
Stats Multiple_

Animal Healer INT, MD 500
Animal Trainer MAN, WP 450



_Arcane Skills
Stats Multiple_

Body Damage Stabilization WP 600
Direction Sense
WP 250
Drug Tolerance WP, END 400
Endure Cold INT, WP, EN 500
Endure Heat INT, WP, EN 500
Meditation - Healing WP 550
Poison Perception PC, INT 225
Time Sense PC,
WP 600




_Body Development Skills Stats Multiple_

Adrenal Strength
WP 200
Body Development END None **
Body Development FT None **
Body Development PS None **
Endurance EN,
WP 200




_Combat Skills
Stats Multiple_

Fighting Florentine MD 400
Martial Arts - Range of Field NONE 500
Quick Draw AG, MD 250
Yadomejutsu WP, MD 700




_Crafts
Stats Multiple_

Armourer PS, INT,
PC 700
Bowyer INT,
WP 400
Cooking
INT 225
Craft
Varies Varies
Engineering
INT 500
First Aid INT, PC,
MD 175
Fletcher INT,
MD 150
Gambling PC,
MD 275
Jeweler
INT 600
Leathercraft MD,
INT 350
Linguist INT,
KN 550
Mapping PC,
INT 75
Metalsmith - Magical MD, INT 700
Metalsmith - Normal PS, INT 175
Metalsmith - Precious MD, INT 350
Miner PS,
INT 600
Musician
MD 400
Navigating INT, PC, KN 600
Painting PC,
MD 125
Pottery
MD 225
Sailing INT,
AG 300
Sculpting PC,
MD 250
Shipwright
INT 375
Stonecraft INT,
MD 275
Teamster
WP 275
Weavercraft MD, AG 200
Woodcraft MD, AG 300


*_Interpersonal Skills Stats
Multiple_*

Acting INT, MAN, PB 175
Begging low
PB 200
Bribery INT,
MAN 425
Character Judgment MAN, PC 200
Courtesan See
below 400
Diplomacy INT, PC, MAN 425
Instructor INT,WP,MAN 200
Interrogation
MAN 325
Lover PB,
MAN 125
Personal Development MAN None **
Public Speaking MAN, KN 350
Singing PB,
MAN 200
Storytelling MAN, KN 175




_Knowledge Skills Stats
Multiple_

Administration INT, PC, MAN 250
Animal Lore
KN 200
Artifact Lore
KN 400
Astrology
KN 375
Cultural Lore
KN 200
Demon/Devil Lore KN 200
Dragon Lore
KN 200
Elemental Lore
KN 200
Faerie Lore
KN 200
Fungus Lore
KN 200
Gem Appraisal
INT 225
Herb Lore
KN 200
Languages See below S: 100,
R/W: 150
Lock Lore
KN 200
Lore
KN 200
Metal Evaluation INT, KN 175
Metal Lore
KN 200
Plant Lore
KN 200
Poison Lore
KN 200
Propaganda MAN, INT 350
Religious Lore KN, WP 200
Research
INT 300
Sea Lore
KN 200
Symbol Lore
KN 200
Terrain Lore
KN 200
Warding Lore
KN 200
Weather Lore KN, INT 200
World Lore
KN 200




_Magic Skills
Stats Multiple_

Magic Development MA None **
Power Perception MA 300
Read Magic - Magical Languages INT, KN 125
Spell Displacement None 450
Spell Trickery MD, AG 375




_Mental Development Skills Stats Multiple_

Memory
INT 550
Mental Development INT None **
Mental Development KN None **
Mental Development WP None **
Quick Study
INT 400
Speed Reading
INT 650




_Outdoor Skills
Stats Multiple_

Caving PS,
INT 300
Diving PS, WP,
EN 600
Fire Building WP,
INT 125
Fishing
INT 300
Mountaineering MD, AG, PS 300
Snowshoeing
AG 225
Survival - Arctic INT, WP, EN 500
Survival - Cold INT, WP, EN 500
Survival - Desert INT, WP, EN 500
Survival - Outdoor INT, WP, EN 500
Survival - Tropical INT, WP, EN 500
Survival - Undersea INT, WP, EN 500
Survival - Underworld INT, WP, EN 500
Survival - Wilderness MD, INT 350
Swimming PS, MD, EN 300
Tracking INT,
PC 400
Trap Building INT, MD 350




_Perception Skills Stats
Multiple_

Lip Reading PC,
INT 350
Listen INT,
PC 300
Mental Development - Perception None **
Night Sense INT,
PC 275
Scan INT,
PC 300
Touch PC,
MD 350




_Physical Coordination Skills Stats Multiple_

Acrobatics MD,
AG 600
Climbing MD,
AG 200
Defense
None 900
Dancing
AG 175
Excavation MD,
KN 250
Horsemanship See below 125
Physical Development MD None **
Physical Development AG None **
Prestidigitation MD, AG 250
Rope Mastery
MD 200
Rowing PS,
AG 200
Running AG,
WP 300
Throw
MD 175
Tumbling
AG 350




Psionic Skills
Stats Multiple

Psion - Psionic Perception Wp 300




_Thief Skills
Stats Multiple_

Ambush
NONE 300
Find Traps
PC 450
Forgery MD,
PC 675
Hide in Shadows INT, WP 200
Locate Secret Openings PC 350
Move Silently
AG 325
Open Locks INT, MD 350
Pickpockets
MD 200
Remove Traps INT, WP 325
Shadowing INT, PC
400
Sleight of Hand MD, AG 225
Streetwise MAN, INT 250





For more info on my system you can check out my website:
http://portalkeepersofgrayrock.com/



Ted wrote:

>
>
> I'm trying to find a good way to handle characters being able to learn
> specific sub-skills, which are normally encompassed by a Major Skill.
>
> For instance, say somebody wants to learn to be able to pick a lock
> but doesnt want to learn the entire Thief or Spy skill.
>
> I'd be interested in knowing how others have handled this situation.
>

Not sure how this is going to format, but here it goes. this is the
cleric from my campaign.

The adventuring cleric is an individual who is dedicated to a deity, and
at the same time may be a skilled combatant at arms. The cleric must be
of the same alignment as the cleric’s deity. All clerics have holy
symbols that aid them and give power to their spells. A clerics choice
of weapon is usually limited to the weapon of choice of their deity. All
clerics have their spells bestowed upon them by their deity for correct
and diligent prayers and deeds.

A cleric’s main duty is to interpret his deity’s will and do his best to
carry out those desires. The cleric also sets an example for the masses,
as per his deity’s will, and recruit, and educate the masses according
to the deity’s whim.

All Clerics must live by certain tenets and beliefs. These guide the
Clerics behavior. A war deity might order its Clerics to be at the
forefront of battles and to actively crusade against all enemies. A
harvest deity may want its Clerics to be active in the fields. The ethos
may also dictate what alignment a cleric must follow.

**

*Class Multiple*: 2000 EXP

*Starting Skills*: 3 + Shield or Defense

/Starting skills have a multiple of 1.0. They may be from any class of
skills. The cleric will receive the first rank, with these skills, free,
but must purchase all ranks thereafter at the 1.0 multiple./

* *

*
*

*Bonus Skills *– these skills will go up with the cleric’s level as
indicated.


_Skills Free Ranks_

Astrology 1 per rank
Speak/(Read/Write) 6/6 in native tongue

_Lores Free Ranks_

Religious Lore 5 + 1 per rank

*Attack Modifier Table*

The following table determines when a cleric gains additional damage and
attacks with their weapons:

_Rank w/ weapon Modifier_

6 +1 damage
8 2 blows per round
10 +2 damage
12 3 blows per round
15 +3 damage
18 4 blows per round
22 +4 damage
27 5 blows per round
32 +5 damage

For every additional 5 levels, +1 to damage.


*Offensive Bonus Modifier per Rank with Weapon*: 4%


Skill Multiples

Clerical skill multiples work a bit differently than other professions.
Where in other professions, the skill multiples apply to all in that
profession, with clerics each religion will have its own set of skill
multiples. What areas of power and interest the god presides over will
affect the multiples. Gods of nature will tend to get outdoor skills at
a lower cost, gods of war would get combat at a lower cost, etc. Because
of this, listed below is the “generic” listing for skill multiples. Once
you have chosen your god, you will need to refer to your particular
religion find out if these have been modified.

Animal: 3
Arcane: 2
Body Development: 2

Combat: 2

Crafts: 1.5

Interpersonal: 1
Knowledge: 1
Magic: 3
Mental Development: 1
Outdoor: 2
Perception: 1.5

Physical: 2

Psionic: 3

Thief: 2

* *

*A study of the spells usable by clerics will convey the interests and
attitudes of the clerics deity.*

A Cleric of a particular mythos is allowed to cast spells from only a
few, related spheres. The Clerics deity will have major and minor
accesses to certain spheres, and this determines the spells available to
the Cleric (Each deity's access to spheres is determined by the DM as he
creates the pantheon of his world.). The 16 spheres of influence are
defined in the following paragraphs.

A Cleric whose deity grants major access to a sphere can choose from any
spell within that sphere (provided he is high enough level to cast the
spell), while one allowed only minor access to the sphere is limited to
spells of 4th level or below in that sphere. The combination of major
and minor accesses to spheres results in a wide variation in the spells
available to Clerics who worship different deities. See the description
of each particular religion to see what bonus powers and spell spheres a
cleric will receive.

* *

*_
_*

*_Spell progression chart_*

Cleric Spell Level

_Level* 1 2 3 4 5 6* 7***_

1 1 - - - - - -

2 2 - - - - - -

3 2 1 - - - - -

*4 3 2 - - - - -*

* 5 3 3 1 - - - -*

* 6 3 3* *2 - - - -*

7 3 3 2 1 - - -

8 3 3 3 2 - - -

9 4 4 3 2 1 - -

*10 4 4 3 3 2 - -*

*11 5 4 4 3 2 1 -*

*12 6 5 5 3 2 2 -*

13 6 6 6 4 2 2 -

14 6 6 6 5 3 2 1

15 6 6 6 6 4 2 1

*16 7 7 7 6 4 3 1*

*17 7 7 7 7 5 3 2*

*18 8 8 8 8 6 4 2*

19 9 9 8 8 6 4 2

20 9 9 9 8 7 5 2

* /Usable only by clerics with 23 or greater Willpower./

** /Usable only by clerics with 25 or greater Willpower./

*BONUS SPELLS* indicates the number of additional spells a cleric is
entitled to because of his high Willpower (WP).


Bonus spells are cumulative, so a cleric with a WP of 21 is entitled
to 2 first level and 2 second level bonus spells.


WPR Spells WPR Spells

5-17 none 26 1^st , 4^th

18 1^st 27-28 2^nd , 4^th

19 1^st 29 3^rd , 4^th , 1^st

20 2^nd 30-31 4^th , 5^th , 2^nd

21-22 2^nd 32 5^th , 5^th , 3^rd

23-24 3^rd 33 6^th , 6^th , 1^st ,2^nd

25 4^th 34-35 6^th , 7^th , 2^nd ,3^rd


Initiative Bonus

When casting clerical spells, or attempting a Turning of undead, the
cleric receives an initiative bonus of +1 per 3 clerical levels.

*Divination Spells*

Clerical divination spells, except for the spell "Augury", are powerful
spells that are meant to be used sparingly. The clerical spell
Divination should, at most, be used once a month or once per adventure.
Deities or their henchmen don't exactly enjoy being message boys for
clerics who don't have the intelligence or the energy to find out things
for themselves. The clerical Commune spell is one of a priest's most
powerful spells. In accordance it is one of the spells a cleric should
use wisely. The Commune spell should at most be cast once a year or at
times of great need. Just because there are minimum times listed does
not mean that that is how often a cleric can use the spell. A cleric
using the spell continuously around its minimum time will quickly find
not only his divination spells not working, but also he may not receive
some of his other spells. Also just because a cleric has not used a
spell for a while does not mean they "add" up. I.E. a cleric that has
not used a Divination spell for several years does not mean that they
can cast several over a short period of time. These spells are not
cumulative! If a cleric casts a Commune spell, he should wait at least a
year before casting another even if it’s been a long time since he cast
one before that.

*Curses*

Clerical spell Remove Curse- Chance to remove a clerical curse is equal
to (30% plus 5% per level of cleric minus 2% per level of curse). If the
curse is cast by a mage, the chance of removal is divided by 2. In both
cases, the donation of magic items may increase the chance of the curse
being removed.


Miracle Points

These are additional points that awarded to the cleric for doing his job
and following the faith. They can be granted or removed, as the gods
will, according to the cleric’s behavior. The base amount of points
awarded to the cleric, each session, are (Clerical level * session
hours) _+_ modifiers based on extraordinary acts of faith or heresy.
Though the cleric is never certain how much certain acts cost, the
following would be a guideline:

Refilling a spent spell slot - 50 minimum, or (the minimum cleric level
needed to cast that spell x 8).

Changing a full spell slot w/o prayer – same as refilling

Performing a spell power above one’s normal abilities, say regeneration
– 1000 miracle points.

The expenditure of the points is up to the player, but the GM decides
the final cost and result. If the cleric has been exceptionally devout
at pursuing his deity’s goals, he may find his miracle point costs
significantly reduced or the deity may simply grant the miracle for free.

*Single Classed Bonus:* None. Clerics can’t Multi-Class. Certain deities
will allow their clerics to become dual-classed, at regular dual-class
cost, but with restrictions based on religious ideologies.**

*Aura of Grandeur*

This ability is pretty much the ultimate power of any cleric for he
becomes imbued with the power of his deity and radiates an aura of
incredible power outward. Only clerics of tenth level or higher, or holy
warriors of twelfth level or higher may invoke this power. This power
may be brought to the fore only during those times when a cleric is
facing, in a major tide-turning battle, an opponent of fantastic
opposition, like a cleric of an opposing ideal or religion, or a greater
demon. This is a significant expenditure of energy, and, at the very
least, all within a huge radius will notice that a holy battle is in
progress.

Note that this effect is not simply restricted to worshippers of the
Greater Gods, but may occur amongst followers of lesser powers,
including liches and arch-magi.

There are two versions of the Aura of Grandeur:

/The Strength of the Faithful/

This is the lesser version of the Aura and has minimal repercussions if
an outcome is decided. A cleric calls forth the Aura to influence the
battle by raising the morale of all on his side, and demoralizing all
opponents. The first round that this power appears acts as simply a
challenge and warning. All creatures participating in the battle become
aware of a greater presence on the battlefield. All opposing clerics or
holy warriors, in the battle, are alerted to the challenge. Within that
first round the most powerful challenger present at the battle, but not
necessarily in sight of his opponent, may choose to respond, hold, or
pass. If the primary challenger is holding for a specific reason, such
as a strategic or tactical advantage, no others will accept the
challenge; however, if the primary chooses to pass the challenge to the
next in line, he may choose to accept the challenge, or hold, or pass,
and so on down the line.

By the second round, if nobody of the opposing side has accepted the
challenge, then the unopposed Aura will sweep out in a visual affect
appropriate to the deity. Each round it will advance 100 yards in
radius. Each round will see all allies within the radius receiving a
+5%/+1 bonus, and all enemies at a –5%/-1 cumulatively. So, round two
would be a _+_5%/_+_1 to all within a 100 yard radius. Round three would
see a _+_10%/_+_2 within 100 yards, and +5%/+1 from 101 to 200 yards
out, and so on. With a maximum of _+_20/_+_4 being possible, although
the range will continue to expand as indicated above.

Once the challenge has been accepted, the two clerics have a contest of
wills. The winner receives a bonus of +5%/+1 for his allies for the
duration of the battle, and –5%/-1 for all enemies, barring future
significant losses or wins in physical or spiritual battle,
respectively. During the period of the effect, the battleground will be
overcast with the appropriate winning deity’s effect, i.e. silvery glow,
menacing clouds, fog, etc…

Either contestant may concede at any point. The only limit to the total
number of challenges a cleric may contest is his own willpower. Although
unable to cast other spells, the contestants are able to perform actions
like walking and talking as well as defending themselves, although the
strain will tell. Since they are invested with the power of their gods,
any enemies attempting to attack a contestant must make a magic Saving
Throw each round just to engage and will be at ½ of their O.B. and will
need a weapon of some significance (excellent quality or better) to do
more than annoy the contestant.

/Domination/

This is the greater version of the Aura. Both the initiator and the
challenger must have visual contact of each other. Even if divided by
hundreds of yards, being able to identify each other is important. Of
course, since both are probably radiating a holy aura, this makes it
easier for the range to be a bit more extended.

Although the challenge begins the same way as the lesser version of
Aura, with the same modifiers to allies and enemies, it automatically
encompasses the entire battle.

The response and battle are different; however, as the results are much
more drastic. The cleric must decide immediately upon feeling the
challenge if they are going to accept. Once accepted or declined, the
decision cannot be changed. If a cleric declines the challenge, the
challenging cleric gains the benefits of an uncontested /Strength of the
Faithful/ immediately until the end of the battle. The loser’s body and
soul are on the line. The winning deity immediately claims both and may
do as it wishes with them, i.e. eternal damnation, becoming an undead
minion, total destruction of body and soul, etc…

The winner receives 1/10^th of the loser’s EXP as his reward for the
victory (this must be directly invested in the appropriate religious
class only), plus his racial maximum for Willpower increases by one.

As the loser’s Aura fades and the deity flees the immediate battle, a
great, involuntary moan of despair shivers through the levels of the
losers. This inspires the winners to release a great shout of victory as
their morale soars. All losers involved on the battle, even
peripherally, must make a 2x Willpower check at –10, or immediately
route for safety. All losers are at a –20%/-4 to all actions while all
those allied with the winning cleric receive a +20%/+4 for the duration
of the battle.

Although a cleric cannot be forced into the contest, once entering the
contest, he may not withdraw, but must see it to the end.

Anyone attempting to attack the cleric must be at least two levels
(overall or professional as required) higher, or be exceptionally pure
of heart (not necessarily good or evil, just pure something), and
possess a weapon of +1 magic or better, and make a ½ Willpower check for
each attack. The attacker will be at 1/3^rd O.B., but the cleric will
have a defense equal to his starting Aura bonus. Should the attacker
succeed, he must then make a Magic Saving Throw or suffer a grievous
backlash of deity-based energy with a minimum result of being struck
unconscious for several hours, and suffering from a weakened state for
several days.

_Formula and modifiers for Aura of Grandeur:_

Base: Willpower + Cleric level + modifiers

Modifiers:

Greater God.............................................................
None

Lesser God.............................................................. -5

Minor Power........................................................... -10

Per Strength of the Faithful won or lost.................. _+_2

Per Domination won............................................... _+_5

On holy ground aligned or non-aligned^1 ................... _+_2

On holy ground of your deity/opposing deity.......... _+_5

On holy, sanctified ground of deity/opp. diety^2 ....... _+_10

On grounds of primary temple of d/o.d.^3 ................. _+_15

Per 1000 Miracle Points spent................................ +1

Battle already won/lost............................................ _+_5

Overwhelmingly large number of enemies/allies....... _+_5

GM determined intimidation factor^4 ........................ _+_1 to _+_5

^1 Does not necessarily need to be of the cleric’s religion, just
closely aligned in ideals. The cleric himself may have consecrated the
ground.

^2 This would be a temple or place of regular worship, or a place of
some significant past event or miracle.

^3 The mother temple. The equivalent of the Papal Temple in Rome. Also a
reliably proven or universally believed location of a great event
directly related to the deity/power, i.e. Jerusalem (birth place of
Christ), Sauron’s stronghold, the spawning place of a demon, etc…

^4 If the cleric has a good or bad reputation, such as having led
winning crusades, or having been a great coward. Also if the cleric is
brandishing a significant holy relic, etc…

How it works:

Once the cleric’s current Willpower and level are added together and all
modifiers are taken into account, this total is considered the cleric’s
Aura total. Each round of the contest reduces this total by one point
until it reaches 20, at which point the cleric rolls a d20 and must roll
equal or greater than that number for it to reduce one more point. The
first cleric to zero loses.

/Example/: Father Jim, a cleric of Kour, has a Willpower of 25, and is
level 10. He is currently in possession of a Can of Kuor’s Light, a holy
relic, which gives him a +3 (as determined by the GM). Unfortunately he
is facing an evil cleric in an evil temple, but not the mother temple,
which gives Father Jim a –10, and the evil cleric a +10. If Father Jim
had stayed outside of the temple and challenged the evil cleric while
the evil cleric stood on the steps, then Father Jim would have suffered
no penalty, and the evil cleric would still have received a +10.

Father Jim has a reputation for traveling with powerful companions,
including two Champions of the Grand Arena of Waterdeep. Father Jim also
has a reputation as a destroyer of evil. The GM awards another +2 to
Father Jim for his intimidating reputation. And, since the party has
recently cleared the temple of all of the evil allies and minions, and
at least one of them will probably be able to make a Saving Throw well
enough to hang around even if the evil cleric prevails, and whack his
sorry butt anyway, the GM awards Father Jim another +5 for the battle
being already won.

Now the evil cleric is pretty close to average in Willpower, and is of
level 10 himself, but the big kicker is that he worships a minor power,
a Greater Demon.

When all is said and done, Father Jim has an Aura Total 5 points higher
than the evil cleric’s Aura Total.

They enter into the challenge of Domination. The GM decrees that several
rounds pass until the evil cleric’s Aura Total now equals 20. On the
next round the evil cleric must roll a d20 and hope to not get a natural
20, or his Aura Total will reduce to 19. The evil cleric will have to
roll 5 times before Father Jim has to worry about rolling the d20.* *At
one point, near to the end, Jim’s companions get the idea to defile the
temple. The evil cleric is impotent to stop these deeds, and the GM
awards a –1 modifier to the evil cleric.

At this point, Jim declares he is going to use some of his Miracle
Points, and decides to spend 2000 M.P., which bumps him back up two points.

With these last modifiers, Father Jim has enough of a lead that he is
victorious. The evil cleric screams in horror as Kuor sends his soul
into eternal damnation and the body disappears in a blue bolt of
lightning. The ground trembles and the altar cracks in half. Since the
battle is over, Father Jim collapses with exhaustion and must rest for
the day to get his strength back, leaving the looting of the temple to
the other adventurers. For his victory, Father Jim acquires an immediate
11,000 EXP (10% of the evil cleric’s EXP, applied immediately to the
cleric class), and his Willpower’s racial max goes from 25 to 26.


*
*

*Many clerics are able to turn away, or sway in loyalty various forms of
undead and evil. *A cleric can turn/sway a number of undead, or innately
evil creatures like demons and devils, equal to (Cleric level-Undead
rank)+1d4.

Cleric’s Level

_1-2 3 4-5 6 7-8 9 10-11 12 13-14 15 16-17 18 19+_

1 9 4 T T D D D* D* D* D* D* D* D*

U 2 14 9 4 T T D D D* D* D* D* D* D*

n 3 19 14 9 4 T T D D D* D* D* D* D*

d 4 20 19 14 9 4 T T D D D* D* D* D*

e 5 - 20 19 14 9 4 T T D D D* D* D*

a 6 - - 20 19 14 9 4 T T D D D* D*

d 7 - - - 20 19 14 9 4 T T D D D*

8 - - - - 20 19 14 9 4 T T D D

9 - - - - - 20 19 14 9 4 T T D

10 - - - - - - 20 19 14 9 4 T T


SPECIAL - - - - - - - 20 19 14 9 4 T

+ Consecrated Warriors with turning abilities turn undead as a cleric
two levels below their level.

*T* This symbol indicates automatic turning - whether cleric is evil or
good.

*D* This symbol indicates the cleric has automatically brought the
undead to a friendly status (evil cleric) or destroyed or damned them
(good cleric).

*D* *This symbol indicates that the cleric automatically destroys/sways
a number of undead equal to (2 x Cleric level) – Undead rank +1d4.

*-* No effect upon the undead is possible where a dash is shown.


Levels of Undead

_UNDEAD_ _LEVEL_

Apparition 6

Coffer corpse 2

Ghast...................................... 4

Ghost 8

Ghoul 3

Huecuva.................................. 3

Juju zombie 3

Lich 10

Monster zombie...................... 3

Mummy 7

Paladin (L 1-2) 7

Paladin (L 3-4......................... 8

Paladin (L 5-6) 9

Paladin (L 7-8) 10

Paladin (L9-10)...................... Special

Paladin (L11+) Unturnable

Penanggalan 5

Shadow.................................... 5

Skeleton 1

Son of Kyuss 4

Special.................................... Special

Specter 7

Vampire 8

Vampire (cleric)...................... 9

Vampire (magic user) 10

Wight 6

Wraith.................................... 6

Zombie 1

*
*


Levels of Undead

_UNDEAD_ _LEVEL_

Skeleton 1

Zombie 1

Coffer corpse.......................... 2

Ghoul 3

Huecuva 3

Juju zombie............................. 3

Monster zombie 3

Ghast 4

Son of Kyuss........................... 4

Penanggalan 5

Shadow 5

Apparition.............................. 6

Wight 6

Wraith 6

Mummy.................................. 7

Paladin (L 1-2) 7

Specter 7

Ghost...................................... 8

Paladin (L 3-4) 8

Vampire 8

Paladin (L 5-6)....................... 9

Vampire (cleric) 9

Lich 10

Paladin (L 7-8)....................... 10

Vampire (magic user) 10

Paladin (L9-10) Special

Special.................................... Special


Paladin (L11+) Unturnable




brockrwood wrote:

>
> A player in my DragonQuest campaign wanted to play a D&D "cleric" type
> of character. Oddly, although there are many references (both explicit
> and implied) to religious themes in DQ, there is no "cleric" skill in
> the game. Did the designers intentionally leave this up to the GM?
> Were the designers actively trying to steer clear of religion when
> they designed the game?
>
> The solution the player and I came up with was to let him play a mage
> of the "White Magic" college. This college is included in the "DQ Open
> Source" document.
>
> Have any of you come up with a different solution?
>
> - Brock
>
>

Good stuff. Thanks!

- Brock

--- In dq-rules@yahoogroups.com, Jason Winter <JasonWinter@...> wrote:
>
> Not sure how this is going to format, but here it goes. this is the
> cleric from my campaign.
>
> The adventuring cleric is an individual who is dedicated to a deity, and
> at the same time may be a skilled combatant at arms. The cleric must be
> of the same alignment as the cleric's deity. All clerics have holy
> symbols that aid them and give power to their spells. A clerics choice
> of weapon is usually limited to the weapon of choice of their deity. All
> clerics have their spells bestowed upon them by their deity for correct
> and diligent prayers and deeds.
>
> A cleric's main duty is to interpret his deity's will and do his best to
> carry out those desires. The cleric also sets an example for the masses,
> as per his deity's will, and recruit, and educate the masses according
> to the deity's whim.
>
> All Clerics must live by certain tenets and beliefs. These guide the
> Clerics behavior. A war deity might order its Clerics to be at the
> forefront of battles and to actively crusade against all enemies. A
> harvest deity may want its Clerics to be active in the fields. The ethos
> may also dictate what alignment a cleric must follow.
>
> **
>
> *Class Multiple*: 2000 EXP
>
> *Starting Skills*: 3 + Shield or Defense
>
> /Starting skills have a multiple of 1.0. They may be from any class of
> skills. The cleric will receive the first rank, with these skills, free,
> but must purchase all ranks thereafter at the 1.0 multiple./
>
> * *
>
> *
> *
>
> *Bonus Skills *– these skills will go up with the cleric's level as
> indicated.
>
>
> _Skills Free Ranks_
>
> Astrology 1 per rank
> Speak/(Read/Write) 6/6 in native tongue
>
> _Lores Free Ranks_
>
> Religious Lore 5 + 1 per rank
>
> *Attack Modifier Table*
>
> The following table determines when a cleric gains additional damage and
> attacks with their weapons:
>
> _Rank w/ weapon Modifier_
>
> 6 +1 damage
> 8 2 blows per round
> 10 +2 damage
> 12 3 blows per round
> 15 +3 damage
> 18 4 blows per round
> 22 +4 damage
> 27 5 blows per round
> 32 +5 damage
>
> For every additional 5 levels, +1 to damage.
>
>
> *Offensive Bonus Modifier per Rank with Weapon*: 4%
>
>
> Skill Multiples
>
> Clerical skill multiples work a bit differently than other professions.
> Where in other professions, the skill multiples apply to all in that
> profession, with clerics each religion will have its own set of skill
> multiples. What areas of power and interest the god presides over will
> affect the multiples. Gods of nature will tend to get outdoor skills at
> a lower cost, gods of war would get combat at a lower cost, etc. Because
> of this, listed below is the "generic" listing for skill multiples. Once
> you have chosen your god, you will need to refer to your particular
> religion find out if these have been modified.
>
> Animal: 3
> Arcane: 2
> Body Development: 2
>
> Combat: 2
>
> Crafts: 1.5
>
> Interpersonal: 1
> Knowledge: 1
> Magic: 3
> Mental Development: 1
> Outdoor: 2
> Perception: 1.5
>
> Physical: 2
>
> Psionic: 3
>
> Thief: 2
>
> * *
>
> *A study of the spells usable by clerics will convey the interests and
> attitudes of the clerics deity.*
>
> A Cleric of a particular mythos is allowed to cast spells from only a
> few, related spheres. The Clerics deity will have major and minor
> accesses to certain spheres, and this determines the spells available to
> the Cleric (Each deity's access to spheres is determined by the DM as he
> creates the pantheon of his world.). The 16 spheres of influence are
> defined in the following paragraphs.
>
> A Cleric whose deity grants major access to a sphere can choose from any
> spell within that sphere (provided he is high enough level to cast the
> spell), while one allowed only minor access to the sphere is limited to
> spells of 4th level or below in that sphere. The combination of major
> and minor accesses to spheres results in a wide variation in the spells
> available to Clerics who worship different deities. See the description
> of each particular religion to see what bonus powers and spell spheres a
> cleric will receive.
>
> * *
>
> *_
> _*
>
> *_Spell progression chart_*
>
> Cleric Spell Level
>
> _Level* 1 2 3 4 5 6* 7***_
>
> 1 1 - - - - - -
>
> 2 2 - - - - - -
>
> 3 2 1 - - - - -
>
> *4 3 2 - - - - -*
>
> * 5 3 3 1 - - - -*
>
> * 6 3 3* *2 - - - -*
>
> 7 3 3 2 1 - - -
>
> 8 3 3 3 2 - - -
>
> 9 4 4 3 2 1 - -
>
> *10 4 4 3 3 2 - -*
>
> *11 5 4 4 3 2 1 -*
>
> *12 6 5 5 3 2 2 -*
>
> 13 6 6 6 4 2 2 -
>
> 14 6 6 6 5 3 2 1
>
> 15 6 6 6 6 4 2 1
>
> *16 7 7 7 6 4 3 1*
>
> *17 7 7 7 7 5 3 2*
>
> *18 8 8 8 8 6 4 2*
>
> 19 9 9 8 8 6 4 2
>
> 20 9 9 9 8 7 5 2
>
> * /Usable only by clerics with 23 or greater Willpower./
>
> ** /Usable only by clerics with 25 or greater Willpower./
>
> *BONUS SPELLS* indicates the number of additional spells a cleric is
> entitled to because of his high Willpower (WP).
>
>
> Bonus spells are cumulative, so a cleric with a WP of 21 is entitled
> to 2 first level and 2 second level bonus spells.
>
>
> WPR Spells WPR Spells
>
> 5-17 none 26 1^st , 4^th
>
> 18 1^st 27-28 2^nd , 4^th
>
> 19 1^st 29 3^rd , 4^th , 1^st
>
> 20 2^nd 30-31 4^th , 5^th , 2^nd
>
> 21-22 2^nd 32 5^th , 5^th , 3^rd
>
> 23-24 3^rd 33 6^th , 6^th , 1^st ,2^nd
>
> 25 4^th 34-35 6^th , 7^th , 2^nd ,3^rd
>
>
> Initiative Bonus
>
> When casting clerical spells, or attempting a Turning of undead, the
> cleric receives an initiative bonus of +1 per 3 clerical levels.
>
> *Divination Spells*
>
> Clerical divination spells, except for the spell "Augury", are powerful
> spells that are meant to be used sparingly. The clerical spell
> Divination should, at most, be used once a month or once per adventure.
> Deities or their henchmen don't exactly enjoy being message boys for
> clerics who don't have the intelligence or the energy to find out things
> for themselves. The clerical Commune spell is one of a priest's most
> powerful spells. In accordance it is one of the spells a cleric should
> use wisely. The Commune spell should at most be cast once a year or at
> times of great need. Just because there are minimum times listed does
> not mean that that is how often a cleric can use the spell. A cleric
> using the spell continuously around its minimum time will quickly find
> not only his divination spells not working, but also he may not receive
> some of his other spells. Also just because a cleric has not used a
> spell for a while does not mean they "add" up. I.E. a cleric that has
> not used a Divination spell for several years does not mean that they
> can cast several over a short period of time. These spells are not
> cumulative! If a cleric casts a Commune spell, he should wait at least a
> year before casting another even if it's been a long time since he cast
> one before that.
>
> *Curses*
>
> Clerical spell Remove Curse- Chance to remove a clerical curse is equal
> to (30% plus 5% per level of cleric minus 2% per level of curse). If the
> curse is cast by a mage, the chance of removal is divided by 2. In both
> cases, the donation of magic items may increase the chance of the curse
> being removed.
>
>
> Miracle Points
>
> These are additional points that awarded to the cleric for doing his job
> and following the faith. They can be granted or removed, as the gods
> will, according to the cleric's behavior. The base amount of points
> awarded to the cleric, each session, are (Clerical level * session
> hours) _+_ modifiers based on extraordinary acts of faith or heresy.
> Though the cleric is never certain how much certain acts cost, the
> following would be a guideline:
>
> Refilling a spent spell slot - 50 minimum, or (the minimum cleric level
> needed to cast that spell x 8).
>
> Changing a full spell slot w/o prayer – same as refilling
>
> Performing a spell power above one's normal abilities, say regeneration
> – 1000 miracle points.
>
> The expenditure of the points is up to the player, but the GM decides
> the final cost and result. If the cleric has been exceptionally devout
> at pursuing his deity's goals, he may find his miracle point costs
> significantly reduced or the deity may simply grant the miracle for free.
>
> *Single Classed Bonus:* None. Clerics can't Multi-Class. Certain deities
> will allow their clerics to become dual-classed, at regular dual-class
> cost, but with restrictions based on religious ideologies.**
>
> *Aura of Grandeur*
>
> This ability is pretty much the ultimate power of any cleric for he
> becomes imbued with the power of his deity and radiates an aura of
> incredible power outward. Only clerics of tenth level or higher, or holy
> warriors of twelfth level or higher may invoke this power. This power
> may be brought to the fore only during those times when a cleric is
> facing, in a major tide-turning battle, an opponent of fantastic
> opposition, like a cleric of an opposing ideal or religion, or a greater
> demon. This is a significant expenditure of energy, and, at the very
> least, all within a huge radius will notice that a holy battle is in
> progress.
>
> Note that this effect is not simply restricted to worshippers of the
> Greater Gods, but may occur amongst followers of lesser powers,
> including liches and arch-magi.
>
> There are two versions of the Aura of Grandeur:
>
> /The Strength of the Faithful/
>
> This is the lesser version of the Aura and has minimal repercussions if
> an outcome is decided. A cleric calls forth the Aura to influence the
> battle by raising the morale of all on his side, and demoralizing all
> opponents. The first round that this power appears acts as simply a
> challenge and warning. All creatures participating in the battle become
> aware of a greater presence on the battlefield. All opposing clerics or
> holy warriors, in the battle, are alerted to the challenge. Within that
> first round the most powerful challenger present at the battle, but not
> necessarily in sight of his opponent, may choose to respond, hold, or
> pass. If the primary challenger is holding for a specific reason, such
> as a strategic or tactical advantage, no others will accept the
> challenge; however, if the primary chooses to pass the challenge to the
> next in line, he may choose to accept the challenge, or hold, or pass,
> and so on down the line.
>
> By the second round, if nobody of the opposing side has accepted the
> challenge, then the unopposed Aura will sweep out in a visual affect
> appropriate to the deity. Each round it will advance 100 yards in
> radius. Each round will see all allies within the radius receiving a
> +5%/+1 bonus, and all enemies at a –5%/-1 cumulatively. So, round two
> would be a _+_5%/_+_1 to all within a 100 yard radius. Round three would
> see a _+_10%/_+_2 within 100 yards, and +5%/+1 from 101 to 200 yards
> out, and so on. With a maximum of _+_20/_+_4 being possible, although
> the range will continue to expand as indicated above.
>
> Once the challenge has been accepted, the two clerics have a contest of
> wills. The winner receives a bonus of +5%/+1 for his allies for the
> duration of the battle, and –5%/-1 for all enemies, barring future
> significant losses or wins in physical or spiritual battle,
> respectively. During the period of the effect, the battleground will be
> overcast with the appropriate winning deity's effect, i.e. silvery glow,
> menacing clouds, fog, etc…
>
> Either contestant may concede at any point. The only limit to the total
> number of challenges a cleric may contest is his own willpower. Although
> unable to cast other spells, the contestants are able to perform actions
> like walking and talking as well as defending themselves, although the
> strain will tell. Since they are invested with the power of their gods,
> any enemies attempting to attack a contestant must make a magic Saving
> Throw each round just to engage and will be at ½ of their O.B. and will
> need a weapon of some significance (excellent quality or better) to do
> more than annoy the contestant.
>
> /Domination/
>
> This is the greater version of the Aura. Both the initiator and the
> challenger must have visual contact of each other. Even if divided by
> hundreds of yards, being able to identify each other is important. Of
> course, since both are probably radiating a holy aura, this makes it
> easier for the range to be a bit more extended.
>
> Although the challenge begins the same way as the lesser version of
> Aura, with the same modifiers to allies and enemies, it automatically
> encompasses the entire battle.
>
> The response and battle are different; however, as the results are much
> more drastic. The cleric must decide immediately upon feeling the
> challenge if they are going to accept. Once accepted or declined, the
> decision cannot be changed. If a cleric declines the challenge, the
> challenging cleric gains the benefits of an uncontested /Strength of the
> Faithful/ immediately until the end of the battle. The loser's body and
> soul are on the line. The winning deity immediately claims both and may
> do as it wishes with them, i.e. eternal damnation, becoming an undead
> minion, total destruction of body and soul, etc…
>
> The winner receives 1/10^th of the loser's EXP as his reward for the
> victory (this must be directly invested in the appropriate religious
> class only), plus his racial maximum for Willpower increases by one.
>
> As the loser's Aura fades and the deity flees the immediate battle, a
> great, involuntary moan of despair shivers through the levels of the
> losers. This inspires the winners to release a great shout of victory as
> their morale soars. All losers involved on the battle, even
> peripherally, must make a 2x Willpower check at –10, or immediately
> route for safety. All losers are at a –20%/-4 to all actions while all
> those allied with the winning cleric receive a +20%/+4 for the duration
> of the battle.
>
> Although a cleric cannot be forced into the contest, once entering the
> contest, he may not withdraw, but must see it to the end.
>
> Anyone attempting to attack the cleric must be at least two levels
> (overall or professional as required) higher, or be exceptionally pure
> of heart (not necessarily good or evil, just pure something), and
> possess a weapon of +1 magic or better, and make a ½ Willpower check for
> each attack. The attacker will be at 1/3^rd O.B., but the cleric will
> have a defense equal to his starting Aura bonus. Should the attacker
> succeed, he must then make a Magic Saving Throw or suffer a grievous
> backlash of deity-based energy with a minimum result of being struck
> unconscious for several hours, and suffering from a weakened state for
> several days.
>
> _Formula and modifiers for Aura of Grandeur:_
>
> Base: Willpower + Cleric level + modifiers
>
> Modifiers:
>
> Greater God.............................................................
> None
>
> Lesser God.............................................................. -5
>
> Minor Power........................................................... -10
>
> Per Strength of the Faithful won or lost.................. _+_2
>
> Per Domination won............................................... _+_5
>
> On holy ground aligned or non-aligned^1 ................... _+_2
>
> On holy ground of your deity/opposing deity.......... _+_5
>
> On holy, sanctified ground of deity/opp. diety^2 ....... _+_10
>
> On grounds of primary temple of d/o.d.^3 ................. _+_15
>
> Per 1000 Miracle Points spent................................ +1
>
> Battle already won/lost............................................ _+_5
>
> Overwhelmingly large number of enemies/allies....... _+_5
>
> GM determined intimidation factor^4 ........................ _+_1 to _+_5
>
> ^1 Does not necessarily need to be of the cleric's religion, just
> closely aligned in ideals. The cleric himself may have consecrated the
> ground.
>
> ^2 This would be a temple or place of regular worship, or a place of
> some significant past event or miracle.
>
> ^3 The mother temple. The equivalent of the Papal Temple in Rome. Also a
> reliably proven or universally believed location of a great event
> directly related to the deity/power, i.e. Jerusalem (birth place of
> Christ), Sauron's stronghold, the spawning place of a demon, etc…
>
> ^4 If the cleric has a good or bad reputation, such as having led
> winning crusades, or having been a great coward. Also if the cleric is
> brandishing a significant holy relic, etc…
>
> How it works:
>
> Once the cleric's current Willpower and level are added together and all
> modifiers are taken into account, this total is considered the cleric's
> Aura total. Each round of the contest reduces this total by one point
> until it reaches 20, at which point the cleric rolls a d20 and must roll
> equal or greater than that number for it to reduce one more point. The
> first cleric to zero loses.
>
> /Example/: Father Jim, a cleric of Kour, has a Willpower of 25, and is
> level 10. He is currently in possession of a Can of Kuor's Light, a holy
> relic, which gives him a +3 (as determined by the GM). Unfortunately he
> is facing an evil cleric in an evil temple, but not the mother temple,
> which gives Father Jim a –10, and the evil cleric a +10. If Father Jim
> had stayed outside of the temple and challenged the evil cleric while
> the evil cleric stood on the steps, then Father Jim would have suffered
> no penalty, and the evil cleric would still have received a +10.
>
> Father Jim has a reputation for traveling with powerful companions,
> including two Champions of the Grand Arena of Waterdeep. Father Jim also
> has a reputation as a destroyer of evil. The GM awards another +2 to
> Father Jim for his intimidating reputation. And, since the party has
> recently cleared the temple of all of the evil allies and minions, and
> at least one of them will probably be able to make a Saving Throw well
> enough to hang around even if the evil cleric prevails, and whack his
> sorry butt anyway, the GM awards Father Jim another +5 for the battle
> being already won.
>
> Now the evil cleric is pretty close to average in Willpower, and is of
> level 10 himself, but the big kicker is that he worships a minor power,
> a Greater Demon.
>
> When all is said and done, Father Jim has an Aura Total 5 points higher
> than the evil cleric's Aura Total.
>
> They enter into the challenge of Domination. The GM decrees that several
> rounds pass until the evil cleric's Aura Total now equals 20. On the
> next round the evil cleric must roll a d20 and hope to not get a natural
> 20, or his Aura Total will reduce to 19. The evil cleric will have to
> roll 5 times before Father Jim has to worry about rolling the d20.* *At
> one point, near to the end, Jim's companions get the idea to defile the
> temple. The evil cleric is impotent to stop these deeds, and the GM
> awards a –1 modifier to the evil cleric.
>
> At this point, Jim declares he is going to use some of his Miracle
> Points, and decides to spend 2000 M.P., which bumps him back up two points.
>
> With these last modifiers, Father Jim has enough of a lead that he is
> victorious. The evil cleric screams in horror as Kuor sends his soul
> into eternal damnation and the body disappears in a blue bolt of
> lightning. The ground trembles and the altar cracks in half. Since the
> battle is over, Father Jim collapses with exhaustion and must rest for
> the day to get his strength back, leaving the looting of the temple to
> the other adventurers. For his victory, Father Jim acquires an immediate
> 11,000 EXP (10% of the evil cleric's EXP, applied immediately to the
> cleric class), and his Willpower's racial max goes from 25 to 26.
>
>
> *
> *
>
> *Many clerics are able to turn away, or sway in loyalty various forms of
> undead and evil. *A cleric can turn/sway a number of undead, or innately
> evil creatures like demons and devils, equal to (Cleric level-Undead
> rank)+1d4.
>
> Cleric's Level
>
> _1-2 3 4-5 6 7-8 9 10-11 12 13-14 15 16-17 18 19+_
>
> 1 9 4 T T D D D* D* D* D* D* D* D*
>
> U 2 14 9 4 T T D D D* D* D* D* D* D*
>
> n 3 19 14 9 4 T T D D D* D* D* D* D*
>
> d 4 20 19 14 9 4 T T D D D* D* D* D*
>
> e 5 - 20 19 14 9 4 T T D D D* D* D*
>
> a 6 - - 20 19 14 9 4 T T D D D* D*
>
> d 7 - - - 20 19 14 9 4 T T D D D*
>
> 8 - - - - 20 19 14 9 4 T T D D
>
> 9 - - - - - 20 19 14 9 4 T T D
>
> 10 - - - - - - 20 19 14 9 4 T T
>
>
> SPECIAL - - - - - - - 20 19 14 9 4 T
>
> + Consecrated Warriors with turning abilities turn undead as a cleric
> two levels below their level.
>
> *T* This symbol indicates automatic turning - whether cleric is evil or
> good.
>
> *D* This symbol indicates the cleric has automatically brought the
> undead to a friendly status (evil cleric) or destroyed or damned them
> (good cleric).
>
> *D* *This symbol indicates that the cleric automatically destroys/sways
> a number of undead equal to (2 x Cleric level) – Undead rank +1d4.
>
> *-* No effect upon the undead is possible where a dash is shown.
>
>
> Levels of Undead
>
> _UNDEAD_ _LEVEL_
>
> Apparition 6
>
> Coffer corpse 2
>
> Ghast...................................... 4
>
> Ghost 8
>
> Ghoul 3
>
> Huecuva.................................. 3
>
> Juju zombie 3
>
> Lich 10
>
> Monster zombie...................... 3
>
> Mummy 7
>
> Paladin (L 1-2) 7
>
> Paladin (L 3-4......................... 8
>
> Paladin (L 5-6) 9
>
> Paladin (L 7-8) 10
>
> Paladin (L9-10)...................... Special
>
> Paladin (L11+) Unturnable
>
> Penanggalan 5
>
> Shadow.................................... 5
>
> Skeleton 1
>
> Son of Kyuss 4
>
> Special.................................... Special
>
> Specter 7
>
> Vampire 8
>
> Vampire (cleric)...................... 9
>
> Vampire (magic user) 10
>
> Wight 6
>
> Wraith.................................... 6
>
> Zombie 1
>
> *
> *
>
>
> Levels of Undead
>
> _UNDEAD_ _LEVEL_
>
> Skeleton 1
>
> Zombie 1
>
> Coffer corpse.......................... 2
>
> Ghoul 3
>
> Huecuva 3
>
> Juju zombie............................. 3
>
> Monster zombie 3
>
> Ghast 4
>
> Son of Kyuss........................... 4
>
> Penanggalan 5
>
> Shadow 5
>
> Apparition.............................. 6
>
> Wight 6
>
> Wraith 6
>
> Mummy.................................. 7
>
> Paladin (L 1-2) 7
>
> Specter 7
>
> Ghost...................................... 8
>
> Paladin (L 3-4) 8
>
> Vampire 8
>
> Paladin (L 5-6)....................... 9
>
> Vampire (cleric) 9
>
> Lich 10
>
> Paladin (L 7-8)....................... 10
>
> Vampire (magic user) 10
>
> Paladin (L9-10) Special
>
> Special.................................... Special
>
>
> Paladin (L11+) Unturnable
>
>
>
>
> brockrwood wrote:
> >
> > A player in my DragonQuest campaign wanted to play a D&D "cleric" type
> > of character. Oddly, although there are many references (both explicit
> > and implied) to religious themes in DQ, there is no "cleric" skill in
> > the game. Did the designers intentionally leave this up to the GM?
> > Were the designers actively trying to steer clear of religion when
> > they designed the game?
> >
> > The solution the player and I came up with was to let him play a mage
> > of the "White Magic" college. This college is included in the "DQ Open
> > Source" document.
> >
> > Have any of you come up with a different solution?
> >
> > - Brock
> >
> >
>

Cool. Thanks!

--- In dq-rules@yahoogroups.com, Coyote Moon <khaiotimoon@...> wrote:
>
> Our folks have usually gone a "Druidic" path with the college of earth magics. Allows a healer focus and can be role played as a faith system.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>

In another recent post to the group, there was a discussion of taking some of "sub-skills" included in the existing DQ "skills" (which read more like "professions" than true skills) and making them separate skills. Lock-picking was the skill in question. The argument goes, why make someone pay for the entire "Thief" skill in DQ when all they really want to do is pick a lock every once in a while?

This begs the question of why we don't just add *lots and lots* of new, very specific and granular skills to the game? Eventually, you would dispense with the "profession" approach of DQ and have all of the skills be individually defined. In essence, every skill would be an "adventure" skill. There are other RPGs that do just that. This, of course, begs the question of why you are GMing or playing DragonQuest instead of the other game.

I GM and play DragonQuest for a number of reasons, one of them being that I *like* the broadly-defined skills that seem more like "professions." I like the balance DQ strikes between D&D's rigid character "classes" and other RPGs' endless lists of specific skills.

For example, if a player character has the "ranger" skill, that gives me (the GM) a sense for the kinds of sub-skills they possess. A few of the most important, and most commonly used, of these sub-skills are actually spelled out in the rules. The rest are left up to my discretion to decide during the role-play. I like that.

If a PC with ranger at rank "2" is attempting something to which a ranger sub-skill defined in the rules does not apply, but it seems reasonable that a "ranger" would have some skill in that area, as GM I just come up with a reasonable success chance and have the player roll against his/her rank with ranger. I will say, "OK, roll against your rank with ranger times 3 or times 5 or times 6 or times whatever," based on how difficult I think the task is. If the PC has *no* ranger skill, then he/she can't make the attempt at all (or has a very low chance of success).

This puts more pressure on me, as the GM, to figure out which DQ skill(s) apply and to come up with a reasonable success percentage based on the situation at hand. That is more work for me. But it is work I do "on my feet" at game time and it immediately becomes a part of the role-play. I'd rather do that than engage in the bookkeeping of tracking hundreds of specific skills and then remembering the precise one that applies when faced with a particular situation. There is enough bookkeeping in DQ already!

All of the above said, yes, there are a few "adventure" type skills (climbing and swimming are two) I add to the list of existing adventure skills for our campaign. Also, there are a couple of new DQ "skills" (professions) I am thinking about adding as house rules for our campaign.

In addition, I agree with the design decision of DQ's designers: Adventurers will track and improve only the non-mundane, exciting skills that are important to adventurers. Why add a domestic skill such as "cooking" or, God forbid, "East Alusian Cooking," to the game when that skill has little real effect on seeking and finding treasure, going on adventures, and receiving well-deserved glory? Skills that produce mundane things (even weapons) are not needed as the PCs can (and should) simply purchase those things with the spoils of adventuring. In fact, the act of finding someone selling the item or service in question, and purchasing it, can be an adventure in and of itself!

The above is just my take on how my players and I enjoy DragonQuest. I invite your comments and feedback including other ways of approaching the game!

- Brock

As someone who has taken a very sharp divergence from the original
design of the game when it comes to professions, I'll give my reasoning
for why I did so.

First I'll give some background of myself and the campaigns I played in.
I've been role-playing since the mid-70's and Playing DQ since about
1984. I may fall into the minority, but every DQ game I've ever played
in was a long running campaign. Several being the same campaign for well
over 10 years. The shortest was a bit over 3 years but our group, which
I GM'ed, played 6 nights a week from 10pm until 6am Monday through
Friday and from Noon to 10 pm Sundays. Now we can all debate that
perhaps I had no life, but I was in the military at the time working
nights and as far as I'm concerned was some of the most fun I've had my
entire life :-). So, while I may not have any publishing credits to my
name, I hope I have enough street cred to have a fairly well educated
opinion on DQ. :-) This lead in all cases to a VERY high level campaign
as time progressed. The 6 nights a week game this worked into players
having exp totals WELL over 1 million exp. So, because of this, most of
my experience comes from running DQ in a high level campaign.

Now onto my reasoning for exploding many skills out of professions.

First and formost, if you play in the same campaign for any real length
of time, the DQ skills and professions totally break down (Except mages!
Mages kick butt at any rank and in my opinion DQ is the best magic
system in existence!) Take for example weapons. Many weapons max out at
rank 5, a few more at 7 or 8 and a couple at 10. If you play in an
ongoing campaign for any real length of time, your players will begin to
get frustrated when suddenly they can no longer improve their
professions or their skill with their weapons of choice. They begin
spending their exp on things they have no interest in just to burn off
their exp that's been building up for multiple sessions. This leads to
problems 2 and 3.

Second: After playing in said campaign for any real length of time, many
players will have bought up everything they are interested in to max
rank and then their exp will begin to build. One of the only things left
to spend exp on will be Stats, this lead to players spending all their
exp on stats steadily raising them all to 25.

Third: Every player in the campaign decides to become a mage. Having
maxed out everything else, the only thing left to do is become a mage.
This lead, in more than one campaign, to EVERY player becoming a mage.
Now I don't know about others, but having every player in the campaign
being a Mage + maxed other class falls into the "this sucks" category
for me the GM.

As time progressed, we had a choice. Create new ways for players to
expand and grow their characters, or start a new campaign from scratch.
Every time this came up the consensus was always unanimous, more goodies
for existing players to spend exp on! (I must admit I fall into this
same category). Also as time progressed, the list of available skills
has grown and grown.

In the end though I think it has become too big for the current
generation of players coming up through the ranks. Players today it
seems are more interested in gaining uber powers fast and easy.
Something that my system does not provide and for me, not a way Im
willing to player. So, sadly for me, other than a weekly Maptool 2nd
edition campaign, and a PBEM variant on my system, I've had a rather dry
gaming experience over the past 4 years or so.








brockrwood wrote:

>
> In another recent post to the group, there was a discussion of taking
> some of "sub-skills" included in the existing DQ "skills" (which read
> more like "professions" than true skills) and making them separate
> skills. Lock-picking was the skill in question. The argument goes, why
> make someone pay for the entire "Thief" skill in DQ when all they
> really want to do is pick a lock every once in a while?
>
> This begs the question of why we don't just add *lots and lots* of
> new, very specific and granular skills to the game? Eventually, you
> would dispense with the "profession" approach of DQ and have all of
> the skills be individually defined. In essence, every skill would be
> an "adventure" skill. There are other RPGs that do just that. This, of
> course, begs the question of why you are GMing or playing DragonQuest
> instead of the other game.
>
> I GM and play DragonQuest for a number of reasons, one of them being
> that I *like* the broadly-defined skills that seem more like
> "professions." I like the balance DQ strikes between D&D's rigid
> character "classes" and other RPGs' endless lists of specific skills.
>
> For example, if a player character has the "ranger" skill, that gives
> me (the GM) a sense for the kinds of sub-skills they possess. A few of
> the most important, and most commonly used, of these sub-skills are
> actually spelled out in the rules. The rest are left up to my
> discretion to decide during the role-play. I like that.
>
> If a PC with ranger at rank "2" is attempting something to which a
> ranger sub-skill defined in the rules does not apply, but it seems
> reasonable that a "ranger" would have some skill in that area, as GM I
> just come up with a reasonable success chance and have the player roll
> against his/her rank with ranger. I will say, "OK, roll against your
> rank with ranger times 3 or times 5 or times 6 or times whatever,"
> based on how difficult I think the task is. If the PC has *no* ranger
> skill, then he/she can't make the attempt at all (or has a very low
> chance of success).
>
> This puts more pressure on me, as the GM, to figure out which DQ
> skill(s) apply and to come up with a reasonable success percentage
> based on the situation at hand. That is more work for me. But it is
> work I do "on my feet" at game time and it immediately becomes a part
> of the role-play. I'd rather do that than engage in the bookkeeping of
> tracking hundreds of specific skills and then remembering the precise
> one that applies when faced with a particular situation. There is
> enough bookkeeping in DQ already!
>
> All of the above said, yes, there are a few "adventure" type skills
> (climbing and swimming are two) I add to the list of existing
> adventure skills for our campaign. Also, there are a couple of new DQ
> "skills" (professions) I am thinking about adding as house rules for
> our campaign.
>
> In addition, I agree with the design decision of DQ's designers:
> Adventurers will track and improve only the non-mundane, exciting
> skills that are important to adventurers. Why add a domestic skill
> such as "cooking" or, God forbid, "East Alusian Cooking," to the game
> when that skill has little real effect on seeking and finding
> treasure, going on adventures, and receiving well-deserved glory?
> Skills that produce mundane things (even weapons) are not needed as
> the PCs can (and should) simply purchase those things with the spoils
> of adventuring. In fact, the act of finding someone selling the item
> or service in question, and purchasing it, can be an adventure in and
> of itself!
>
> The above is just my take on how my players and I enjoy DragonQuest. I
> invite your comments and feedback including other ways of approaching
> the game!
>
> - Brock
>
>

Others have already chimed in on the subject, but let me add a couple of
my own comments on this.

First of all, in a medieval/Renaissance kind of setting, how is a
character going to learn the granular skill of lock picking? If the
player has a suitably detailed and reasonable outline for how their
character is going to pick up this ability alone, I would give it some
consideration and treat it accordingly. But, in the vast majority of
cases, I would expect that the player character is going to pick up this
knowledge from spending some time with thieves, and will probably learn
parts of the rest of their trade, as well.

The whole structure of knowledge and abilities is very tied up in a
master and student kind of relationship, and the idea of the skills of
DQ as some kind of course catalog from which we can pick and choose just
the bits we like is out of keeping with the spirit of the era in question.

Along these same lines is the similar question, "Why can't I just learn
one spell?" or "Why can't I just learn that one spell from that other
college?"

If it turns into story and adventure and adds detail and interest to the
campaign, then I would be all for it. But if it's just a means to a
tool, without any regard for the setting, then I would be against it.

--RT


Ted wrote:

> I'm trying to find a good way to handle characters being able to learn specific sub-skills, which are normally encompassed by a Major Skill.
>
> For instance, say somebody wants to learn to be able to pick a lock but doesnt want to learn the entire Thief or Spy skill.
>
> I'd be interested in knowing how others have handled this situation.
>
>
>
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> In another recent post to the group, there was a discussion of taking some
> of "sub-skills" included in the existing DQ "skills" (which read more like
> "professions" than true skills) and making them separate skills.
> Lock-picking was the skill in question. The argument goes, why make
> someone pay for the entire "Thief" skill in DQ when all they really want
> to do is pick a lock every once in a while?
>
> This begs the question of why we don't just add *lots and lots* of new,
> very specific and granular skills to the game? Eventually, you would
> dispense with the "profession" approach of DQ and have all of the skills
> be individually defined. In essence, every skill would be an "adventure"
> skill. There are other RPGs that do just that. This, of course, begs the
> question of why you are GMing or playing DragonQuest instead of the other
> game.
>
> I GM and play DragonQuest for a number of reasons, one of them being that
> I *like* the broadly-defined skills that seem more like "professions." I
> like the balance DQ strikes between D&D's rigid character "classes" and
> other RPGs' endless lists of specific skills.
>
> For example, if a player character has the "ranger" skill, that gives me
> (the GM) a sense for the kinds of sub-skills they possess. A few of the
> most important, and most commonly used, of these sub-skills are actually
> spelled out in the rules. The rest are left up to my discretion to decide
> during the role-play. I like that.
>
> If a PC with ranger at rank "2" is attempting something to which a ranger
> sub-skill defined in the rules does not apply, but it seems reasonable
> that a "ranger" would have some skill in that area, as GM I just come up
> with a reasonable success chance and have the player roll against his/her
> rank with ranger. I will say, "OK, roll against your rank with ranger
> times 3 or times 5 or times 6 or times whatever," based on how difficult I
> think the task is. If the PC has *no* ranger skill, then he/she can't
> make the attempt at all (or has a very low chance of success).
>
> This puts more pressure on me, as the GM, to figure out which DQ skill(s)
> apply and to come up with a reasonable success percentage based on the
> situation at hand. That is more work for me. But it is work I do "on my
> feet" at game time and it immediately becomes a part of the role-play.
> I'd rather do that than engage in the bookkeeping of tracking hundreds of
> specific skills and then remembering the precise one that applies when
> faced with a particular situation. There is enough bookkeeping in DQ
> already!
>
> All of the above said, yes, there are a few "adventure" type skills
> (climbing and swimming are two) I add to the list of existing adventure
> skills for our campaign. Also, there are a couple of new DQ "skills"
> (professions) I am thinking about adding as house rules for our campaign.

I agree with the above.

>
> In addition, I agree with the design decision of DQ's designers:
> Adventurers will track and improve only the non-mundane, exciting skills
> that are important to adventurers. Why add a domestic skill such as
> "cooking" or, God forbid, "East Alusian Cooking," to the game when that
> skill has little real effect on seeking and finding treasure, going on
> adventures, and receiving well-deserved glory? Skills that produce
> mundane things (even weapons) are not needed as the PCs can (and should)
> simply purchase those things with the spoils of adventuring. In fact, the
> act of finding someone selling the item or service in question, and
> purchasing it, can be an adventure in and of itself!
>
> The above is just my take on how my players and I enjoy DragonQuest. I
> invite your comments and feedback including other ways of approaching the
> game!

My players acquire mundane skills as character development. It may not help
on adventures, but explains some of the things they do between adventures
and can be hooks into adventures.

~Jeffery~

Wow! Thanks for the reply and the historical background on your campaign! I started playing RPGs in the late 1970's (1979, I think). My buddies started playing DragonQuest in 1980 when the first edition box set come out. I did not get into it (other than an occasional game session with my pals) until the paperback Bantam 2nd edition came out in 1982.

Fellow RPG old-timer - I salute you!

I cannot say that I have anywhere near your experience with the system, as we could not play as regularly as you and your friends did. We did, however, get some characters up to fairly high levels. Not all 25's, though!

With the experience points your players expended, it seems to me that you were really running a different game, don't you think? I bet the DragonQuest designers never envisioned a party of PCs that had stats all at 25. With all stats at 25, that is basically "god" status. In essence, all of your players were combination Gandalf/Conans, right? It would take some *pretty* amazing opponents to challenge them!

Our campaigns went on for years, too! It was too much fun to stop!

What we did sometimes when we got some PCs up to fairly high stats and ranks, was to semi-retire them and make them NPC's in a new or related game world. Since they were really powerful characters, they had the role of *major* NPCs in the new game world - the Sarumans, Aragorns, and Theodens of the game world, if you will. We would then start new characters. The old characters sometimes would be "patrons" of a sort to the new characters. The game world the new, low-level characters were adventuring in was, to a major extent, the *product* of the powerful characters' previous efforts and desires! That was fun!

A thought just occurs to me. You say you haven't published anything. Why not? Based on what you said, don't you have a pretty cool, pretty unique RPG sitting there, waiting to be published? No, it isn't really DQ anymore, although that is where it started. With the technology we have these days, self-publishing is far easier to do than it used to be. I would buy a copy. Just a thought!

- Brock

--- In dq-rules@yahoogroups.com, Jason Winter <JasonWinter@...> wrote:
>
> As someone who has taken a very sharp divergence from the original
> design of the game when it comes to professions, I'll give my reasoning
> for why I did so.
>
> First I'll give some background of myself and the campaigns I played in.
> I've been role-playing since the mid-70's and Playing DQ since about
> 1984. I may fall into the minority, but every DQ game I've ever played
> in was a long running campaign. Several being the same campaign for well
> over 10 years. The shortest was a bit over 3 years but our group, which
> I GM'ed, played 6 nights a week from 10pm until 6am Monday through
> Friday and from Noon to 10 pm Sundays. Now we can all debate that
> perhaps I had no life, but I was in the military at the time working
> nights and as far as I'm concerned was some of the most fun I've had my
> entire life :-). So, while I may not have any publishing credits to my
> name, I hope I have enough street cred to have a fairly well educated
> opinion on DQ. :-) This lead in all cases to a VERY high level campaign
> as time progressed. The 6 nights a week game this worked into players
> having exp totals WELL over 1 million exp. So, because of this, most of
> my experience comes from running DQ in a high level campaign.
>
> Now onto my reasoning for exploding many skills out of professions.
>
> First and formost, if you play in the same campaign for any real length
> of time, the DQ skills and professions totally break down (Except mages!
> Mages kick butt at any rank and in my opinion DQ is the best magic
> system in existence!) Take for example weapons. Many weapons max out at
> rank 5, a few more at 7 or 8 and a couple at 10. If you play in an
> ongoing campaign for any real length of time, your players will begin to
> get frustrated when suddenly they can no longer improve their
> professions or their skill with their weapons of choice. They begin
> spending their exp on things they have no interest in just to burn off
> their exp that's been building up for multiple sessions. This leads to
> problems 2 and 3.
>
> Second: After playing in said campaign for any real length of time, many
> players will have bought up everything they are interested in to max
> rank and then their exp will begin to build. One of the only things left
> to spend exp on will be Stats, this lead to players spending all their
> exp on stats steadily raising them all to 25.
>
> Third: Every player in the campaign decides to become a mage. Having
> maxed out everything else, the only thing left to do is become a mage.
> This lead, in more than one campaign, to EVERY player becoming a mage.
> Now I don't know about others, but having every player in the campaign
> being a Mage + maxed other class falls into the "this sucks" category
> for me the GM.
>
> As time progressed, we had a choice. Create new ways for players to
> expand and grow their characters, or start a new campaign from scratch.
> Every time this came up the consensus was always unanimous, more goodies
> for existing players to spend exp on! (I must admit I fall into this
> same category). Also as time progressed, the list of available skills
> has grown and grown.
>
> In the end though I think it has become too big for the current
> generation of players coming up through the ranks. Players today it
> seems are more interested in gaining uber powers fast and easy.
> Something that my system does not provide and for me, not a way Im
> willing to player. So, sadly for me, other than a weekly Maptool 2nd
> edition campaign, and a PBEM variant on my system, I've had a rather dry
> gaming experience over the past 4 years or so.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> brockrwood wrote:
> >
> > In another recent post to the group, there was a discussion of taking
> > some of "sub-skills" included in the existing DQ "skills" (which read
> > more like "professions" than true skills) and making them separate
> > skills. Lock-picking was the skill in question. The argument goes, why
> > make someone pay for the entire "Thief" skill in DQ when all they
> > really want to do is pick a lock every once in a while?
> >
> > This begs the question of why we don't just add *lots and lots* of
> > new, very specific and granular skills to the game? Eventually, you
> > would dispense with the "profession" approach of DQ and have all of
> > the skills be individually defined. In essence, every skill would be
> > an "adventure" skill. There are other RPGs that do just that. This, of
> > course, begs the question of why you are GMing or playing DragonQuest
> > instead of the other game.
> >
> > I GM and play DragonQuest for a number of reasons, one of them being
> > that I *like* the broadly-defined skills that seem more like
> > "professions." I like the balance DQ strikes between D&D's rigid
> > character "classes" and other RPGs' endless lists of specific skills.
> >
> > For example, if a player character has the "ranger" skill, that gives
> > me (the GM) a sense for the kinds of sub-skills they possess. A few of
> > the most important, and most commonly used, of these sub-skills are
> > actually spelled out in the rules. The rest are left up to my
> > discretion to decide during the role-play. I like that.
> >
> > If a PC with ranger at rank "2" is attempting something to which a
> > ranger sub-skill defined in the rules does not apply, but it seems
> > reasonable that a "ranger" would have some skill in that area, as GM I
> > just come up with a reasonable success chance and have the player roll
> > against his/her rank with ranger. I will say, "OK, roll against your
> > rank with ranger times 3 or times 5 or times 6 or times whatever,"
> > based on how difficult I think the task is. If the PC has *no* ranger
> > skill, then he/she can't make the attempt at all (or has a very low
> > chance of success).
> >
> > This puts more pressure on me, as the GM, to figure out which DQ
> > skill(s) apply and to come up with a reasonable success percentage
> > based on the situation at hand. That is more work for me. But it is
> > work I do "on my feet" at game time and it immediately becomes a part
> > of the role-play. I'd rather do that than engage in the bookkeeping of
> > tracking hundreds of specific skills and then remembering the precise
> > one that applies when faced with a particular situation. There is
> > enough bookkeeping in DQ already!
> >
> > All of the above said, yes, there are a few "adventure" type skills
> > (climbing and swimming are two) I add to the list of existing
> > adventure skills for our campaign. Also, there are a couple of new DQ
> > "skills" (professions) I am thinking about adding as house rules for
> > our campaign.
> >
> > In addition, I agree with the design decision of DQ's designers:
> > Adventurers will track and improve only the non-mundane, exciting
> > skills that are important to adventurers. Why add a domestic skill
> > such as "cooking" or, God forbid, "East Alusian Cooking," to the game
> > when that skill has little real effect on seeking and finding
> > treasure, going on adventures, and receiving well-deserved glory?
> > Skills that produce mundane things (even weapons) are not needed as
> > the PCs can (and should) simply purchase those things with the spoils
> > of adventuring. In fact, the act of finding someone selling the item
> > or service in question, and purchasing it, can be an adventure in and
> > of itself!
> >
> > The above is just my take on how my players and I enjoy DragonQuest. I
> > invite your comments and feedback including other ways of approaching
> > the game!
> >
> > - Brock
> >
> >
>

This is what I have done in my historical based games using Dragonquest (Black Powder Tales of 1649 & Victorianquest 1865)

You have a skill group (profession, calling, training...or however you wish to word it). The % chance of that skill is the same for all skills within the group and played fairly loosely

So for example:

Theologist:  The skills within this cover such things as:
Deliver ‘sermon’ (whether to put fear into believers, drive out spirits, settle the dead, exorcism, etc); Religious doctrines; Lecture; Debate;
Skill chance is WP+PC+4/rank plus a random d10, so say ~35% at level 1

Gamekeeper. The skills within this cover such things as:
Determine true north. Determine distance travelled. Find the path. Detect ambush. Tracking. Identify flora & fauna. Create restorative. Special Environment(+2) :HILLS
Skill chance is END+PC+4/rank plus a random d10, say so ~35% at level 1

Then, and taking from spell backfire...if you fail by less than 40% you still suceed, but with variable effects of time, consequence etc....so for a skill like Scholar...you may solve the clue and determine when the Steamer leaves for the colonies, but will you be in time to catch it??

Takes away much crucnh from the game, but still adding in option/development that DQ players adore

I have run BPT and VQ a lot this year, and will be running more at CONCEPTION Con in the SW UK in January.

John

---

Have more than one Hotmail account? Link them together to easily access both.

--- In dq-rules@yahoogroups.com, "Jeffery K. McGonagill" <igmod@...> wrote:

>
> > In another recent post to the group, there was a discussion of taking some
> > of "sub-skills" included in the existing DQ "skills" (which read more like
> > "professions" than true skills) and making them separate skills.
> > Lock-picking was the skill in question. The argument goes, why make
> > someone pay for the entire "Thief" skill in DQ when all they really want
> > to do is pick a lock every once in a while?
> >
> > This begs the question of why we don't just add *lots and lots* of new,
> > very specific and granular skills to the game? Eventually, you would
> > dispense with the "profession" approach of DQ and have all of the skills
> > be individually defined. In essence, every skill would be an "adventure"
> > skill. There are other RPGs that do just that. This, of course, begs the
> > question of why you are GMing or playing DragonQuest instead of the other
> > game.
> >
> > I GM and play DragonQuest for a number of reasons, one of them being that
> > I *like* the broadly-defined skills that seem more like "professions." I
> > like the balance DQ strikes between D&D's rigid character "classes" and
> > other RPGs' endless lists of specific skills.
> >
> > For example, if a player character has the "ranger" skill, that gives me
> > (the GM) a sense for the kinds of sub-skills they possess. A few of the
> > most important, and most commonly used, of these sub-skills are actually
> > spelled out in the rules. The rest are left up to my discretion to decide
> > during the role-play. I like that.
> >
> > If a PC with ranger at rank "2" is attempting something to which a ranger
> > sub-skill defined in the rules does not apply, but it seems reasonable
> > that a "ranger" would have some skill in that area, as GM I just come up
> > with a reasonable success chance and have the player roll against his/her
> > rank with ranger. I will say, "OK, roll against your rank with ranger
> > times 3 or times 5 or times 6 or times whatever," based on how difficult I
> > think the task is. If the PC has *no* ranger skill, then he/she can't
> > make the attempt at all (or has a very low chance of success).
> >
> > This puts more pressure on me, as the GM, to figure out which DQ skill(s)
> > apply and to come up with a reasonable success percentage based on the
> > situation at hand. That is more work for me. But it is work I do "on my
> > feet" at game time and it immediately becomes a part of the role-play.
> > I'd rather do that than engage in the bookkeeping of tracking hundreds of
> > specific skills and then remembering the precise one that applies when
> > faced with a particular situation. There is enough bookkeeping in DQ
> > already!
> >
> > All of the above said, yes, there are a few "adventure" type skills
> > (climbing and swimming are two) I add to the list of existing adventure
> > skills for our campaign. Also, there are a couple of new DQ "skills"
> > (professions) I am thinking about adding as house rules for our campaign.
>
> I agree with the above.
>
>
> >
> > In addition, I agree with the design decision of DQ's designers:
> > Adventurers will track and improve only the non-mundane, exciting skills
> > that are important to adventurers. Why add a domestic skill such as
> > "cooking" or, God forbid, "East Alusian Cooking," to the game when that
> > skill has little real effect on seeking and finding treasure, going on
> > adventures, and receiving well-deserved glory? Skills that produce
> > mundane things (even weapons) are not needed as the PCs can (and should)
> > simply purchase those things with the spoils of adventuring. In fact, the
> > act of finding someone selling the item or service in question, and
> > purchasing it, can be an adventure in and of itself!
> >
> > The above is just my take on how my players and I enjoy DragonQuest. I
> > invite your comments and feedback including other ways of approaching the
> > game!
>
> My players acquire mundane skills as character development. It may not help
> on adventures, but explains some of the things they do between adventures
> and can be hooks into adventures.
>
> ~Jeffery~
>

Jeffery, thanks for the comments. I like your approach of acquiring skills as part of character development and as hooks into the story.

I depend on my players' creativity to come up with secondary "skills," as needed, during the role-play, that become part of the story we are weaving together. The need for a skill not defined in the rules comes up pretty frequently in our campaign. For example, to impress the local militia and get them to do something for the party, the party needs to prove its worth by cooking a camp meal (sort of like the firefighters of the real world today). It's an initiation rite a la, "Oliver Twist" or such. The leader of the party (or me, if they are drawing a blank) will say, "any of you guys handy in the kitchen?" Inspired, one of the PCs will say, in character, "My Grandma cooked the best goat stew this side of Veluna. I watched her do it lots of times and helped, too."

Voila, the character has now asserted that he has competence with the "goat stew cooking" skill. We make a roll against this skill (just to make sure he doesn't have really good or bad luck that day), and the skill, and its use, now becomes part of the adventure. It also fleshes out the character's background.

In our campaign, I ask my players to give me a one paragraph (or less) description of the character's background and "M.O." before he or she joins the campaign. One player in the re-started campaign, for example, describes his character as "a farm boy who is good with a bow and won many prizes at the local tournaments. He is visiting cousins near the frontier because is bored with farm life and wants to join the frontier soldiers who defend against the orc raids. He wants to be 'where the action is.'"

That's good enough for me to get the player started. We add detail and richness to the character's background story as we go along.

The above approaches to character detail and secondary skills, however, place a fairly high burden on at least some of the players in the campaign: *Someone* has to step up and make the story go forward. That is a burden most of the players in my campaign readily accept. If not, they won't dig playing in my campaign.

- Brock

Dang, this is so much fun! I am trading RPG ideas and tips with fellow DragonQuest enthusiasts!

OK, I will shut up for a while after this post.

This tip came to me while I was reading and replying to another discussion in the group.

In my DragonQuest campaign (and in other, non-DQ campaigns of the past) I have used a deck of "Whimsy" cards to give my players a way to have some input into the story of the adventure.

The "Whimsy" cards are a deck of RPG "events" that was published many years ago as a play aid to the Ars Magica RPG. Here is a web page that describes the cards and actually lists the text that was printed on each card:

http://www.darkshire.net/jhkim/rpg/systemdesign/cards/whimsycards.html

I don't own a set of the original cards. A friend used these cards in an RPG campaign (I forget the system) many moons ago. I just made my own set by copying the text that was on each card and putting it on slips of paper.

In addition, my Whimsy "deck" includes two "blank" cards that players can use to dream up their own event. I honestly don't remember if these blanks were in the original deck. Anybody know?

At the beginning of each game session, I shuffle the deck and give each player a Whimsy card.

At any point in the game session, a player can play his/her Whimsy card to alter the flow of events in the story. I find that the players really enjoy the Whimsy cards because it gives them *real* ownership over the story we are creating together. I find that we use the Whimsy cards for three purposes:

1. As "luck" cards. When a player or the party has had some *really* bad luck (in DragonQuest, the backfires and grievous injuries can often be bad luck that is disastrous for a player's character), a whimsy card can sometimes be used to "soften" the bad outcome a bit and keep it from being a complete catastrophe.

Likewise, if the players are stuck and could use a little *good* luck to get the story moving again, Whimsy cards are useful.

2. As humor cards. Sometimes the game is getting just a bit tedious and boring and someone wants to put a little mirth into the session. I will allow a whimsy card play in that instance if the player has a good way to inject the fun into the game using the card.

3. As a way to control the plot a bit or add some character story element (or minor skill). For example, the player has a character story idea he wants to introduce and doesn't want to wait for an opportunity to do so. He can play a whimsy card and introduce the story idea or skill that way. This can also be a way to allow a player to add to his character skills or knowlegde that are fairly significant or powerful and that I wouldn't allow the player to simply add to his character without some sort of "payment" to the story.

The primary use for Whimsy cards is "luck." As we all know, DQ can be a deadly game. We also know that generating a character is no minor effort! So players tend use Whimsy cards to keep PCs alive. They have to be judicious in their use of the cards, however, as they only get one card per session. If they use the card and then get *another* mortal wound - so be it! My players tend to save their Whimsy cards unless there is no possibility of avoiding the bad outcome without it.

Using Whimsy cards as "luck" requires reasonableness on the players' parts and some management on the GM's part. No, a player cannot play the "Inopportune Arrival" Whimsy card and have a meteor fall from the sky and kill off a troll that is blocking his path. If, however, that troll is really kicking the character's butt, and will probably cleave the PC in two with his next blow, the player *could* play that card, stating that the troll's wife, irate over some misdead by the troll, arrives and distracts the troll for one pulse, giving the player the initiative for that pulse. With the "lucky break," the player could try to retreat and get to safety or do something else to avoid instant death.

I *do not* allow Whimsy cards to change the outcome of *poor* decisions by a player, only truly bad luck that the player did not bring on himself. If the player had *no business* attacking the troll and could have easily thought of an alternative to doing so, then that is not bad luck - that is foolishness. Sorry, no Whimsy card "luck" for you!

With that said, however, if the player got into the overmatched battle with the troll, even though he could not win, because of good role-play (for example, the character's dearest friend, his pet wolfhound, is about to be eaten by the troll), then I will allow the use of a Whimsy card to give the player a bit of luck.

The GM in these situations has to be very diligent not to let the Whimsy cards save the day every time the players get into a jam. If he/she does, the fear of death or defeat goes away and the game becomes boring. That is why I only allow one card per player (or even one card per party). After the card is played, no more are given out for the rest of the session.

In addition, I usually try to retain an element of chance in the "luck" the player receives. The Whimsy "luck" is not a complete save, it is usually a "second chance" at a save. For example, instead of simply having the troll's swing at the character miss, I will make the troll roll again, and if he misses on either roll, I will call it a miss. Or I will make the troll roll twice on the grievous injury table, and the player can pick the grievous injury that seems less onerous to him or her.

The role-play aspect is important: The player has to give me a plausible (if unlikely) reason for the luck to occur. If the player plays the "Inopportune Arrival" Whimsy card, he has to explain to me what the inopportune arrival is, who it occurs to, and how it *might* pull his chestnuts out of the fire. I will modify as I see fit to make the Whimsy play fair to all concerned. If I think the attempt at role-play is half-hearted, I may, at my discretion, make the effect of the Whimsy card "ineffectual." Moo ha ha ha!

- Brock

Cool stuff!

I like your non-fantasy settings. Have other GMs or game designers done that with DQ - used the system in a setting other than traditional medieval-style fantasy?

- Brock

--- In dq-rules@yahoogroups.com, davis john <jrd123@...> wrote:
>
>
> This is what I have done in my historical based games using Dragonquest (Black Powder Tales of 1649 & Victorianquest 1865)
>
> You have a skill group (profession, calling, training...or however you wish to word it). The % chance of that skill is the same for all skills within the group and played fairly loosely
>
> So for example:
>
> Theologist: The skills within this cover such things as:
> Deliver `sermon' (whether to put fear into
> believers, drive out spirits, settle the dead, exorcism, etc); Religious
> doctrines; Lecture; Debate;
> Skill chance is WP+PC+4/rank plus a random d10, so say ~35% at level 1
>
> Gamekeeper. The skills within this cover such things as:
> Determine true north. Determine distance
> travelled. Find the path. Detect ambush. Tracking. Identify flora & fauna.
> Create restorative. Special Environment(+2) :HILLS
> Skill chance is END+PC+4/rank plus a random d10, say so ~35% at level 1
>
> Then, and taking from spell backfire...if you fail by less than 40% you still suceed, but with variable effects of time, consequence etc....so for a skill like Scholar...you may solve the clue and determine when the Steamer leaves for the colonies, but will you be in time to catch it??
>
> Takes away much crucnh from the game, but still adding in option/development that DQ players adore
>
> I have run BPT and VQ a lot this year, and will be running more at CONCEPTION Con in the SW UK in January.
>
> John
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Add your Gmail and Yahoo! Mail email accounts into Hotmail - it's easy
> http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/186394592/direct/01/
>

Jason,

I definitely sympathize. One of our campaigns has been going for over 10 non-contigous player years now. Even though our play time is only a fraction of what it once was, Skype (the processor and memory hog that it is) reconnected our scattered group a few years ago. In this long campaign, people got attached to their characters and wanted more and more additions and augments rather than to start over. Unfortunately, the book rules for the game will only carry DQ so far. The collection of house rules attached to this campaign has so distorted the base rules that it has become a RPG frankenstein's monster that is only tenuously connected to DQ - it still uses the stats, colleges of magic, and the skills. Every character in the campaign essentially has to be a Mage and everyone has great stats.

To twist the common saying, "All Good Things Should Come To An End".

Mark

--- On Tue, 12/8/09, dq-rules@yahoogroups.com <dq-rules@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

> ________________________________________________________________________
> 3b. Re: Why Not Just Let Skills Be Broadly-defined
> "Professions" and Rol
>     Posted by: "Jason Winter" JasonWinter@scicable.com
> pheyn_vyata
>     Date: Mon Dec 7, 2009 4:01 pm ((PST))
>
> As someone who has taken a very sharp divergence from the
> original
> design of the game when it comes to professions, I'll give
> my reasoning
> for why I did so.
>
> First I'll give some background of myself and the campaigns
> I played in.
> I've been role-playing since the mid-70's and Playing DQ
> since about
> 1984. I may fall into the minority, but every DQ game I've
> ever played
> in was a long running campaign. Several being the same
> campaign for well
> over 10 years. The shortest was a bit over 3 years but our
> group, which
> I GM'ed, played 6 nights a week from 10pm until 6am Monday
> through
> Friday and from Noon to 10 pm Sundays. Now we can all
> debate that
> perhaps I had no life, but I was in the military at the
> time working
> nights and as far as I'm concerned was some of the most fun
> I've had my
> entire life :-). So, while I may not have any publishing
> credits to my
> name, I hope I have enough street cred to have a fairly
> well educated
> opinion on DQ. :-) This lead in all cases to a VERY high
> level campaign
> as time progressed. The 6 nights a week game this worked
> into players
> having exp totals WELL over 1 million exp. So, because of
> this, most of
> my experience comes from running DQ in a high level
> campaign.
>
> Now onto my reasoning for exploding many skills out of
> professions.
>
> First and formost, if you play in the same campaign for any
> real length
> of time, the DQ skills and professions totally break down
> (Except mages!
> Mages kick butt at any rank and in my opinion DQ is the
> best magic
> system in existence!) Take for example weapons. Many
> weapons max out at
> rank 5, a few more at 7 or 8 and a couple at 10. If you
> play in an
> ongoing campaign for any real length of time, your players
> will begin to
> get frustrated when suddenly they can no longer improve
> their
> professions or their skill with their weapons of choice.
> They begin
> spending their exp on things they have no interest in just
> to burn off
> their exp that's been building up for multiple sessions.
> This leads to
> problems 2 and 3.
>
> Second: After playing in said campaign for any real length
> of time, many
> players will have bought up everything they are interested
> in to max
> rank and then their exp will begin to build. One of the
> only things left
> to spend exp on will be Stats, this lead to players
> spending all their
> exp on stats steadily raising them all to 25.
>
> Third: Every player in the campaign decides to become a
> mage. Having
> maxed out everything else, the only thing left to do is
> become a mage.
> This lead, in more than one campaign, to EVERY player
> becoming a mage.
> Now I don't know about others, but having every player in
> the campaign
> being a Mage + maxed other class falls into the "this
> sucks" category
> for me the GM.
>
> As time progressed, we had a choice. Create new ways for
> players to
> expand and grow their characters, or start a new campaign
> from scratch.
> Every time this came up the consensus was always unanimous,
> more goodies
> for existing players to spend exp on! (I must admit I fall
> into this
> same category). Also as time progressed, the list of
> available skills
> has grown and grown.
>
> In the end though I think it has become too big for the
> current
> generation of players coming up through the ranks. Players
> today it
> seems are more interested in gaining uber powers fast and
> easy.
> Something that my system does not provide and for me, not a
> way Im
> willing to player. So, sadly for me, other than a weekly
> Maptool 2nd
> edition campaign, and a PBEM variant on my system, I've had
> a rather dry
> gaming experience over the past 4 years or so.

My campaign world has been operating for 30 years, as DQ for nearly that
long. Over 152 game years have passed since the very start of the Campaign
World, children and even grand-children of PC's have become PC's themselves.
My peak was five games a week, each with a different group (but some players
overlapping), but that was over only a 3-4 month period. Now days it is one
game every 2 weeks or so.

My current group just started a new campaign, same world.

~Jeffery~

----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark D" <shadow_weaver13@yahoo.com>
To: <dq-rules@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, December 08, 2009 2:18 PM
Subject: Re: [dq-rules] Digest Number 490


Jason,

I definitely sympathize. One of our campaigns has been going for over 10
non-contigous player years now. Even though our play time is only a
fraction of what it once was, Skype (the processor and memory hog that it
is) reconnected our scattered group a few years ago. In this long campaign,
people got attached to their characters and wanted more and more additions
and augments rather than to start over. Unfortunately, the book rules for
the game will only carry DQ so far. The collection of house rules attached
to this campaign has so distorted the base rules that it has become a RPG
frankenstein's monster that is only tenuously connected to DQ - it still
uses the stats, colleges of magic, and the skills. Every character in the
campaign essentially has to be a Mage and everyone has great stats.

To twist the common saying, "All Good Things Should Come To An End".

Mark

--- On Tue, 12/8/09, dq-rules@yahoogroups.com <dq-rules@yahoogroups.com>
wrote:

> ________________________________________________________________________
> 3b. Re: Why Not Just Let Skills Be Broadly-defined
> "Professions" and Rol
> Posted by: "Jason Winter" JasonWinter@scicable.com
> pheyn_vyata
> Date: Mon Dec 7, 2009 4:01 pm ((PST))
>
> As someone who has taken a very sharp divergence from the
> original
> design of the game when it comes to professions, I'll give
> my reasoning
> for why I did so.
>
> First I'll give some background of myself and the campaigns
> I played in.
> I've been role-playing since the mid-70's and Playing DQ
> since about
> 1984. I may fall into the minority, but every DQ game I've
> ever played
> in was a long running campaign. Several being the same
> campaign for well
> over 10 years. The shortest was a bit over 3 years but our
> group, which
> I GM'ed, played 6 nights a week from 10pm until 6am Monday
> through
> Friday and from Noon to 10 pm Sundays. Now we can all
> debate that
> perhaps I had no life, but I was in the military at the
> time working
> nights and as far as I'm concerned was some of the most fun
> I've had my
> entire life :-). So, while I may not have any publishing
> credits to my
> name, I hope I have enough street cred to have a fairly
> well educated
> opinion on DQ. :-) This lead in all cases to a VERY high
> level campaign
> as time progressed. The 6 nights a week game this worked
> into players
> having exp totals WELL over 1 million exp. So, because of
> this, most of
> my experience comes from running DQ in a high level
> campaign.
>
> Now onto my reasoning for exploding many skills out of
> professions.
>
> First and formost, if you play in the same campaign for any
> real length
> of time, the DQ skills and professions totally break down
> (Except mages!
> Mages kick butt at any rank and in my opinion DQ is the
> best magic
> system in existence!) Take for example weapons. Many
> weapons max out at
> rank 5, a few more at 7 or 8 and a couple at 10. If you
> play in an
> ongoing campaign for any real length of time, your players
> will begin to
> get frustrated when suddenly they can no longer improve
> their
> professions or their skill with their weapons of choice.
> They begin
> spending their exp on things they have no interest in just
> to burn off
> their exp that's been building up for multiple sessions.
> This leads to
> problems 2 and 3.
>
> Second: After playing in said campaign for any real length
> of time, many
> players will have bought up everything they are interested
> in to max
> rank and then their exp will begin to build. One of the
> only things left
> to spend exp on will be Stats, this lead to players
> spending all their
> exp on stats steadily raising them all to 25.
>
> Third: Every player in the campaign decides to become a
> mage. Having
> maxed out everything else, the only thing left to do is
> become a mage.
> This lead, in more than one campaign, to EVERY player
> becoming a mage.
> Now I don't know about others, but having every player in
> the campaign
> being a Mage + maxed other class falls into the "this
> sucks" category
> for me the GM.
>
> As time progressed, we had a choice. Create new ways for
> players to
> expand and grow their characters, or start a new campaign
> from scratch.
> Every time this came up the consensus was always unanimous,
> more goodies
> for existing players to spend exp on! (I must admit I fall
> into this
> same category). Also as time progressed, the list of
> available skills
> has grown and grown.
>
> In the end though I think it has become too big for the
> current
> generation of players coming up through the ranks. Players
> today it
> seems are more interested in gaining uber powers fast and
> easy.
> Something that my system does not provide and for me, not a
> way Im
> willing to player. So, sadly for me, other than a weekly
> Maptool 2nd
> edition campaign, and a PBEM variant on my system, I've had
> a rather dry
> gaming experience over the past 4 years or so.



------------------------------------

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This has already been discussed at some length in the DragonQuest news-letter yahoo group. Someone there came up with a neat system, and has worked a couple of examples, check out the files section
http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/dqn-list/
for Ranger and Spy/Theif

Basically you split the skill into it's subskills, decide if it's a minor, average or major component, 1, 2 or 3 and used that number to work out a proportion of the ep cost of the total skill for each sub skill and then added a bit to encourage people to choose whole skills

David

--- In dq-rules@yahoogroups.com, "Ted" <tmckelvey77089@...> wrote:
>
> I'm trying to find a good way to handle characters being able to learn specific sub-skills, which are normally encompassed by a Major Skill.
>
> For instance, say somebody wants to learn to be able to pick a lock but doesnt want to learn the entire Thief or Spy skill.
>
> I'd be interested in knowing how others have handled this situation.
>

On the subject of long-running campaigns and character advancement, I cannot claim a great deal of experience in this and none at allwith DQ but I have some thoughts based upon my reading of the rules. DQ is not designed for long-running campaigns with the same charaters. It looks to me as if the characters ae to be retired once they his the maximum in a profession andrun a manor or whatever. The kids of the retired adventurer grow up listening to the talesof Momma/Poppa ad decide to try it themselves. This starts a new campaign with characters that the player can have ties with. There is no need for a character to have rank 10 in all the skills and a 25 in all the attributes and be a mage on top of this.   Christopher D. Cole The World's Tallest Dwarf --- On Tue, 12/8/09, brockrwood <brockrwood@eurekais.com> wrote: From: brockrwood <brockrwood@eurekais.com> Subject: [dq-rules] Re: Why Not Just Let Skills Be Broadly-defined "Professions" and Role-play the Rest? To: dq-rules@yahoogroups.com Date: Tuesday, December 8, 2009, 6:24 PM   Wow! Thanks for the reply and the historical background on your campaign! I started playing RPGs in the late 1970's (1979, I think). My buddies started playing DragonQuest in 1980 when the first edition box set come out. I did not get into it (other than an occasional game session with my pals) until the paperback Bantam 2nd edition came out in 1982. Fellow RPG old-timer - I salute you! I cannot say that I have anywhere near your experience with the system, as we could not play as regularly as you and your friends did. We did, however, get some characters up to fairly high levels. Not all 25's, though! With the experience points your players expended, it seems to me that you were really running a different game, don't you think? I bet the DragonQuest designers never envisioned a party of PCs that had stats all at 25. With all stats at 25, that is basically "god" status. In essence, all of your players were combination Gandalf/Conans, right? It would take some *pretty* amazing opponents to challenge them! Our campaigns went on for years, too! It was too much fun to stop! What we did sometimes when we got some PCs up to fairly high stats and ranks, was to semi-retire them and make them NPC's in a new or related game world. Since they were really powerful characters, they had the role of *major* NPCs in the new game world - the Sarumans, Aragorns, and Theodens of the game world, if you will. We would then start new characters. The old characters sometimes would be "patrons" of a sort to the new characters. The game world the new, low-level characters were adventuring in was, to a major extent, the *product* of the powerful characters' previous efforts and desires! That was fun! A thought just occurs to me. You say you haven't published anything. Why not? Based on what you said, don't you have a pretty cool, pretty unique RPG sitting there, waiting to be published? No, it isn't really DQ anymore, although that is where it started. With the technology we have these days, self-publishing is far easier to do than it used to be. I would buy a copy. Just a thought! - Brock --- In dq-rules@yahoogroup s.com, Jason Winter <JasonWinter@ ...> wrote: > > As someone who has taken a very sharp divergence from the original > design of the game when it comes to professions, I'll give my reasoning > for why I did so. > > First I'll give some background of myself and the campaigns I played in. > I've been role-playing since the mid-70's and Playing DQ since about > 1984. I may fall into the minority, but every DQ game I've ever played > in was a long running campaign. Several being the same campaign for well > over 10 years. The shortest was a bit over 3 years but our group, which > I GM'ed, played 6 nights a week from 10pm until 6am Monday through > Friday and from Noon to 10 pm Sundays. Now we can all debate that > perhaps I had no life, but I was in the military at the time working > nights and as far as I'm concerned was some of the most fun I've had my > entire life :-). So, while I may not have any publishing credits to my > name, I hope I have enough street cred to have a fairly well educated > opinion on DQ. :-) This lead in all cases to a VERY high level campaign > as time progressed. The 6 nights a week game this worked into players > having exp totals WELL over 1 million exp. So, because of this, most of > my experience comes from running DQ in a high level campaign. > > Now onto my reasoning for exploding many skills out of professions. > > First and formost, if you play in the same campaign for any real length > of time, the DQ skills and professions totally break down (Except mages! > Mages kick butt at any rank and in my opinion DQ is the best magic > system in existence!) Take for example weapons. Many weapons max out at > rank 5, a few more at 7 or 8 and a couple at 10. If you play in an > ongoing campaign for any real length of time, your players will begin to > get frustrated when suddenly they can no longer improve their > professions or their skill with their weapons of choice. They begin > spending their exp on things they have no interest in just to burn off > their exp that's been building up for multiple sessions. This leads to > problems 2 and 3. > > Second: After playing in said campaign for any real length of time, many > players will have bought up everything they are interested in to max > rank and then their exp will begin to build. One of the only things left > to spend exp on will be Stats, this lead to players spending all their > exp on stats steadily raising them all to 25. > > Third: Every player in the campaign decides to become a mage. Having > maxed out everything else, the only thing left to do is become a mage. > This lead, in more than one campaign, to EVERY player becoming a mage. > Now I don't know about others, but having every player in the campaign > being a Mage + maxed other class falls into the "this sucks" category > for me the GM. > > As time progressed, we had a choice. Create new ways for players to > expand and grow their characters, or start a new campaign from scratch. > Every time this came up the consensus was always unanimous, more goodies > for existing players to spend exp on! (I must admit I fall into this > same category). Also as time progressed, the list of available skills > has grown and grown. > > In the end though I think it has become too big for the current > generation of players coming up through the ranks. Players today it > seems are more interested in gaining uber powers fast and easy. > Something that my system does not provide and for me, not a way Im > willing to player. So, sadly for me, other than a weekly Maptool 2nd > edition campaign, and a PBEM variant on my system, I've had a rather dry > gaming experience over the past 4 years or so. > > > > > > > > > brockrwood wrote: > > > > In another recent post to the group, there was a discussion of taking > > some of "sub-skills" included in the existing DQ "skills" (which read > > more like "professions" than true skills) and making them separate > > skills. Lock-picking was the skill in question. The argument goes, why > > make someone pay for the entire "Thief" skill in DQ when all they > > really want to do is pick a lock every once in a while? > > > > This begs the question of why we don't just add *lots and lots* of > > new, very specific and granular skills to the game? Eventually, you > > would dispense with the "profession" approach of DQ and have all of > > the skills be individually defined. In essence, every skill would be > > an "adventure" skill. There are other RPGs that do just that. This, of > > course, begs the question of why you are GMing or playing DragonQuest > > instead of the other game. > > > > I GM and play DragonQuest for a number of reasons, one of them being > > that I *like* the broadly-defined skills that seem more like > > "professions. " I like the balance DQ strikes between D&D's rigid > > character "classes" and other RPGs' endless lists of specific skills. > > > > For example, if a player character has the "ranger" skill, that gives > > me (the GM) a sense for the kinds of sub-skills they possess. A few of > > the most important, and most commonly used, of these sub-skills are > > actually spelled out in the rules. The rest are left up to my > > discretion to decide during the role-play. I like that. > > > > If a PC with ranger at rank "2" is attempting something to which a > > ranger sub-skill defined in the rules does not apply, but it seems > > reasonable that a "ranger" would have some skill in that area, as GM I > > just come up with a reasonable success chance and have the player roll > > against his/her rank with ranger. I will say, "OK, roll against your > > rank with ranger times 3 or times 5 or times 6 or times whatever," > > based on how difficult I think the task is. If the PC has *no* ranger > > skill, then he/she can't make the attempt at all (or has a very low > > chance of success). > > > > This puts more pressure on me, as the GM, to figure out which DQ > > skill(s) apply and to come up with a reasonable success percentage > > based on the situation at hand. That is more work for me. But it is > > work I do "on my feet" at game time and it immediately becomes a part > > of the role-play. I'd rather do that than engage in the bookkeeping of > > tracking hundreds of specific skills and then remembering the precise > > one that applies when faced with a particular situation. There is > > enough bookkeeping in DQ already! > > > > All of the above said, yes, there are a few "adventure" type skills > > (climbing and swimming are two) I add to the list of existing > > adventure skills for our campaign. Also, there are a couple of new DQ > > "skills" (professions) I am thinking about adding as house rules for > > our campaign. > > > > In addition, I agree with the design decision of DQ's designers: > > Adventurers will track and improve only the non-mundane, exciting > > skills that are important to adventurers. Why add a domestic skill > > such as "cooking" or, God forbid, "East Alusian Cooking," to the game > > when that skill has little real effect on seeking and finding > > treasure, going on adventures, and receiving well-deserved glory? > > Skills that produce mundane things (even weapons) are not needed as > > the PCs can (and should) simply purchase those things with the spoils > > of adventuring. In fact, the act of finding someone selling the item > > or service in question, and purchasing it, can be an adventure in and > > of itself! > > > > The above is just my take on how my players and I enjoy DragonQuest. I > > invite your comments and feedback including other ways of approaching > > the game! > > > > - Brock > > > > >

Somewhere in the files that can be downloaded are rules for religion; prototypes that didn't get published before SPI went under or someone else's house rules that they donated. I think I still hve the copies I downloaded when I was trying to start up a DQ campaign (my group absolutely refused to play the system) so I haven't looked at them for a long while but i theyare still here, you might look at them.   Christopher D. Cole The World's Tsallest Dwarf --- On Tue, 12/8/09, brockrwood <brockrwood@eurekais.com> wrote: From: brockrwood <brockrwood@eurekais.com> Subject: [dq-rules] Re: Why Not Just Let Skills Be Broadly-defined "Professions" and Role-play the Rest? To: dq-rules@yahoogroups.com Date: Tuesday, December 8, 2009, 8:12 PM   Cool stuff! I like your non-fantasy settings. Have other GMs or game designers done that with DQ - used the system in a setting other than traditional medieval-style fantasy? - Brock --- In dq-rules@yahoogroup s.com, davis john <jrd123@...> wrote: > > > This is what I have done in my historical based games using Dragonquest (Black Powder Tales of 1649 & Victorianquest 1865) > > You have a skill group (profession, calling, training...or however you wish to word it). The % chance of that skill is the same for all skills within the group and played fairly loosely > > So for example: > > Theologist: The skills within this cover such things as: > Deliver `sermon' (whether to put fear into > believers, drive out spirits, settle the dead, exorcism, etc); Religious > doctrines; Lecture; Debate; > Skill chance is WP+PC+4/rank plus a random d10, so say ~35% at level 1 > > Gamekeeper. The skills within this cover such things as: > Determine true north. Determine distance > travelled. Find the path. Detect ambush. Tracking. Identify flora & fauna. > Create restorative. Special Environment( +2) :HILLS > Skill chance is END+PC+4/rank plus a random d10, say so ~35% at level 1 > > Then, and taking from spell backfire...if you fail by less than 40% you still suceed, but with variable effects of time, consequence etc....so for a skill like Scholar...you may solve the clue and determine when the Steamer leaves for the colonies, but will you be in time to catch it?? > > Takes away much crucnh from the game, but still adding in option/development that DQ players adore > > I have run BPT and VQ a lot this year, and will be running more at CONCEPTION Con in the SW UK in January. > > John > > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _ > Add your Gmail and Yahoo! Mail email accounts into Hotmail - it's easy > http://clk.atdmt. com/UKM/go/ 186394592/ direct/01/ >

Thanks for the tip on religion in DQ - I will look for that download!

Christopher, can I ask why your players refused to play DragonQuest? I have found it difficult to recruit players for my DragonQuest campaign here in the Denver, Colorado, USA area. I have a couple of committed players who have become sold on the system, but that is about it. We need 2 to 4 more players in order make the game sessions more dynamic and fun. We had 5 players at one time, but three of them dropped out for various reasons.

In the Denver metopolitan area, there seems to be quite a bit of interest in D&D 3.x and even D&D 4.0. There are also some other D20 devotees, such as a couple of Pathfinder groups. There are also a couple of Shadowrun groups that seem fairly active.

Other than that, with every other system, new or old, it seems to be a struggle to recruit players.

Is there a decline, in general, in interest in PnP role-playing games and the fantasy setting in particular?

I have been toying with the idea of simply giving up on the DragonQuest campaign and just running a D&D 3.5 campaign just so I can have *some* sort of regular RPG fix. I don't want to go there as I am really fond of DQ, even with its warts, and don't want to give up on it unless I have to.

Thoughts? Anyone?

- Brock

--- In dq-rules@yahoogroups.com, Christopher Cole <gruundehn@...> wrote:
>
> Somewhere in the files that can be downloaded are rules for religion; prototypes that didn't get published before SPI went under or someone else's house rules that they donated. I think I still hve the copies I downloaded when I was trying to start up a DQ campaign (my group absolutely refused to play the system) so I haven't looked at them for a long while but i theyare still here, you might look at them.
>  
> Christopher D. Cole
> The World's Tsallest Dwarf
>
> --- On Tue, 12/8/09, brockrwood <brockrwood@...> wrote:
>
>
> From: brockrwood <brockrwood@...>
> Subject: [dq-rules] Re: Why Not Just Let Skills Be Broadly-defined "Professions" and Role-play the Rest?
> To: dq-rules@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Tuesday, December 8, 2009, 8:12 PM
>
>
>  
>
>
>
> Cool stuff!
>
> I like your non-fantasy settings. Have other GMs or game designers done that with DQ - used the system in a setting other than traditional medieval-style fantasy?
>
> - Brock
>
> --- In dq-rules@yahoogroup s.com, davis john <jrd123@> wrote:
> >
> >
> > This is what I have done in my historical based games using Dragonquest (Black Powder Tales of 1649 & Victorianquest 1865)
> >
> > You have a skill group (profession, calling, training...or however you wish to word it). The % chance of that skill is the same for all skills within the group and played fairly loosely
> >
> > So for example:
> >
> > Theologist: The skills within this cover such things as:
> > Deliver `sermon' (whether to put fear into
> > believers, drive out spirits, settle the dead, exorcism, etc); Religious
> > doctrines; Lecture; Debate;
> > Skill chance is WP+PC+4/rank plus a random d10, so say ~35% at level 1
> >
> > Gamekeeper. The skills within this cover such things as:
> > Determine true north. Determine distance
> > travelled. Find the path. Detect ambush. Tracking. Identify flora & fauna.
> > Create restorative. Special Environment( +2) :HILLS
> > Skill chance is END+PC+4/rank plus a random d10, say so ~35% at level 1
> >
> > Then, and taking from spell backfire...if you fail by less than 40% you still suceed, but with variable effects of time, consequence etc....so for a skill like Scholar...you may solve the clue and determine when the Steamer leaves for the colonies, but will you be in time to catch it??
> >
> > Takes away much crucnh from the game, but still adding in option/development that DQ players adore
> >
> > I have run BPT and VQ a lot this year, and will be running more at CONCEPTION Con in the SW UK in January.
> >
> > John
> >
> > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
> > Add your Gmail and Yahoo! Mail email accounts into Hotmail - it's easy
> > http://clk.atdmt com/UKM/go/ 186394592/ direct/01/
> >
>

I cannot comment on DQ games in my local area as I am in between areas right now.

However for roleplaying and tabletop games in general its either a really active club or a really supportive game store that is required to keep the hobby flowing.

Gamers are a notoriously insular lot and few ever really emerge in the general public.

Have you tried a local meet up group? Or a more local listserv?

Gamers walked into the gamestore where I last lived with the statement "I am so glad I finally found this place!"

My only thoughts(as more of miniatures player than true RPGer) is expand your horizons and be willing to set DQ(or your game of choice) aside from time to time and play with others. It will work wonders for your exposure to other gamers and what not.


Best

Matt

Sent from my BlackBerry Smartphone provided by Alltel

---

 

Found the file in the "files" section here at the group = "Priests and Paladins."

Doh!

Thanks for the tip!

- Brock

--- In dq-rules@yahoogroups.com, Christopher Cole <gruundehn@...> wrote:
>
> Somewhere in the files that can be downloaded are rules for religion; prototypes that didn't get published before SPI went under or someone else's house rules that they donated. I think I still hve the copies I downloaded when I was trying to start up a DQ campaign (my group absolutely refused to play the system) so I haven't looked at them for a long while but i theyare still here, you might look at them.
>  
> Christopher D. Cole
> The World's Tsallest Dwarf
>
> --- On Tue, 12/8/09, brockrwood <brockrwood@...> wrote:
>
>
> From: brockrwood <brockrwood@...>
> Subject: [dq-rules] Re: Why Not Just Let Skills Be Broadly-defined "Professions" and Role-play the Rest?
> To: dq-rules@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Tuesday, December 8, 2009, 8:12 PM
>
>
>  
>
>
>
> Cool stuff!
>
> I like your non-fantasy settings. Have other GMs or game designers done that with DQ - used the system in a setting other than traditional medieval-style fantasy?
>
> - Brock
>
> --- In dq-rules@yahoogroup s.com, davis john <jrd123@> wrote:
> >
> >
> > This is what I have done in my historical based games using Dragonquest (Black Powder Tales of 1649 & Victorianquest 1865)
> >
> > You have a skill group (profession, calling, training...or however you wish to word it). The % chance of that skill is the same for all skills within the group and played fairly loosely
> >
> > So for example:
> >
> > Theologist: The skills within this cover such things as:
> > Deliver `sermon' (whether to put fear into
> > believers, drive out spirits, settle the dead, exorcism, etc); Religious
> > doctrines; Lecture; Debate;
> > Skill chance is WP+PC+4/rank plus a random d10, so say ~35% at level 1
> >
> > Gamekeeper. The skills within this cover such things as:
> > Determine true north. Determine distance
> > travelled. Find the path. Detect ambush. Tracking. Identify flora & fauna.
> > Create restorative. Special Environment( +2) :HILLS
> > Skill chance is END+PC+4/rank plus a random d10, say so ~35% at level 1
> >
> > Then, and taking from spell backfire...if you fail by less than 40% you still suceed, but with variable effects of time, consequence etc....so for a skill like Scholar...you may solve the clue and determine when the Steamer leaves for the colonies, but will you be in time to catch it??
> >
> > Takes away much crucnh from the game, but still adding in option/development that DQ players adore
> >
> > I have run BPT and VQ a lot this year, and will be running more at CONCEPTION Con in the SW UK in January.
> >
> > John
> >
> > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
> > Add your Gmail and Yahoo! Mail email accounts into Hotmail - it's easy
> > http://clk.atdmt com/UKM/go/ 186394592/ direct/01/
> >
>

Thanks! I guess I was a little unrealistic about how quickly I start and new DQ campaign, find players, get them psyched, and get them to commit to playing on a regular basis. I will what I was doing at the beginning - seeking out new gaming groups, trying to meet as many like-minded gamers as I can, and then slowly building that rapport and groups of gaming buddies you need as the nucleus of a new campaign.

Thanks for the useful and reflective advice on this!

- Brock

--- In dq-rules@yahoogroups.com, lust_82@... wrote:
>
> I cannot comment on DQ games in my local area as I am in between areas right now.
>
> However for roleplaying and tabletop games in general its either a really active club or a really supportive game store that is required to keep the hobby flowing.
>
> Gamers are a notoriously insular lot and few ever really emerge in the general public.
>
> Have you tried a local meet up group? Or a more local listserv?
>
> Gamers walked into the gamestore where I last lived with the statement "I am so glad I finally found this place!"
>
> My only thoughts(as more of miniatures player than true RPGer) is expand your horizons and be willing to set DQ(or your game of choice) aside from time to time and play with others. It will work wonders for your exposure to other gamers and what not.
>
>
> Best
>
> Matt
>
> Sent from my BlackBerry Smartphone provided by Alltel
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: "brockrwood" <brockrwood@...>
> Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2009 18:17:12
> To: <dq-rules@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: [dq-rules] Re: Why Not Just Let Skills Be Broadly-defined "Professions" and Role-play the Rest?
>
> Thanks for the tip on religion in DQ - I will look for that download!
>
> Christopher, can I ask why your players refused to play DragonQuest? I have found it difficult to recruit players for my DragonQuest campaign here in the Denver, Colorado, USA area. I have a couple of committed players who have become sold on the system, but that is about it. We need 2 to 4 more players in order make the game sessions more dynamic and fun. We had 5 players at one time, but three of them dropped out for various reasons.
>
> In the Denver metopolitan area, there seems to be quite a bit of interest in D&D 3.x and even D&D 4.0. There are also some other D20 devotees, such as a couple of Pathfinder groups. There are also a couple of Shadowrun groups that seem fairly active.
>
> Other than that, with every other system, new or old, it seems to be a struggle to recruit players.
>
> Is there a decline, in general, in interest in PnP role-playing games and the fantasy setting in particular?
>
> I have been toying with the idea of simply giving up on the DragonQuest campaign and just running a D&D 3.5 campaign just so I can have *some* sort of regular RPG fix. I don't want to go there as I am really fond of DQ, even with its warts, and don't want to give up on it unless I have to.
>
> Thoughts? Anyone?
>
> - Brock
>
>
> --- In dq-rules@yahoogroups.com, Christopher Cole <gruundehn@> wrote:
> >
> > Somewhere in the files that can be downloaded are rules for religion; prototypes that didn't get published before SPI went under or someone else's house rules that they donated. I think I still hve the copies I downloaded when I was trying to start up a DQ campaign (my group absolutely refused to play the system) so I haven't looked at them for a long while but i theyare still here, you might look at them.
> >  
> > Christopher D. Cole
> > The World's Tsallest Dwarf
> >
> > --- On Tue, 12/8/09, brockrwood <brockrwood@> wrote:
> >
> >
> > From: brockrwood <brockrwood@>
> > Subject: [dq-rules] Re: Why Not Just Let Skills Be Broadly-defined "Professions" and Role-play the Rest?
> > To: dq-rules@yahoogroups.com
> > Date: Tuesday, December 8, 2009, 8:12 PM
> >
> >
> >  
> >
> >
> >
> > Cool stuff!
> >
> > I like your non-fantasy settings. Have other GMs or game designers done that with DQ - used the system in a setting other than traditional medieval-style fantasy?
> >
> > - Brock
> >
> > --- In dq-rules@yahoogroup s.com, davis john <jrd123@> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > This is what I have done in my historical based games using Dragonquest (Black Powder Tales of 1649 & Victorianquest 1865)
> > >
> > > You have a skill group (profession, calling, training...or however you wish to word it). The % chance of that skill is the same for all skills within the group and played fairly loosely
> > >
> > > So for example:
> > >
> > > Theologist: The skills within this cover such things as:
> > > Deliver `sermon' (whether to put fear into
> > > believers, drive out spirits, settle the dead, exorcism, etc); Religious
> > > doctrines; Lecture; Debate;
> > > Skill chance is WP+PC+4/rank plus a random d10, so say ~35% at level 1
> > >
> > > Gamekeeper. The skills within this cover such things as:
> > > Determine true north. Determine distance
> > > travelled. Find the path. Detect ambush. Tracking. Identify flora & fauna.
> > > Create restorative. Special Environment( +2) :HILLS
> > > Skill chance is END+PC+4/rank plus a random d10, say so ~35% at level 1
> > >
> > > Then, and taking from spell backfire...if you fail by less than 40% you still suceed, but with variable effects of time, consequence etc....so for a skill like Scholar...you may solve the clue and determine when the Steamer leaves for the colonies, but will you be in time to catch it??
> > >
> > > Takes away much crucnh from the game, but still adding in option/development that DQ players adore
> > >
> > > I have run BPT and VQ a lot this year, and will be running more at CONCEPTION Con in the SW UK in January.
> > >
> > > John
> > >
> > >__________________________________________________________
> > > Add your Gmail and Yahoo! Mail email accounts into Hotmail - it's easy
> > > http://clk.atdmt com/UKM/go/ 186394592/ direct/01/
> > >
> >
>

Could someone enumerate for me all the ways in which a DQ (2nd ed.)
character can use EP to improve Magic Resistance? For that matter,
could someone explain magic resistance itself?

Rule 25 says that a character's MR is "a funnction of their Willpower,
modified by their knowledge, the presence of
counterspells [and various circumstantial things like active resistance,
consecrated ground etc.--things you can't change using EP]."

Rule 31 says your MR is your MR except as modified in 31.4: i.e., by
counterspells [and various circumstantial things]. I can't figure out
what the reference in Rule 25 to "knowledge" might mean besides
counterspells.

So does this mean that your "base MR" is just your Willpower? And that
the only ways to use EP to improve it are to increase Willpower and
learn counterspells?

Thanks in advance.

CK

First, MR is based on Willpower, so the only way to permanently increase it is to buy more WP.
Second, non-mages get a + 20 bonus to MR because they aren't good conductors of the energy.
Third, some colleges give bonuses and penalties to MR based on the attacker's college. Water vs. Fire and Air vs. Earth come to mind here. See rule 34.1.
Fourth, remember that a character's Aspect can give a boost to MR under the conditions specified.
Fifth, MR can also be aided by amulets and charms made by adepts of E&E, Shaping and Black Magics.
Sixth, adepts other than Namers may only learn counterspells of other colleges at Rank 0.
Seventh, a target may only be protected by one counterspell at a time, and the counterspell will only affect the magic of one college.

I hope this helps you.

Zheb

--- In dq-rules@yahoogroups.com, Chaim Kaufmann <ck07@...> wrote:
>
> Could someone enumerate for me all the ways in which a DQ (2nd ed.)
> character can use EP to improve Magic Resistance? For that matter,
> could someone explain magic resistance itself?
>
> Rule 25 says that a character's MR is "a funnction of their Willpower,
> modified by their knowledge, the presence of
> counterspells [and various circumstantial things like active resistance,
> consecrated ground etc.--things you can't change using EP]."
>
> Rule 31 says your MR is your MR except as modified in 31.4: i.e., by
> counterspells [and various circumstantial things]. I can't figure out
> what the reference in Rule 25 to "knowledge" might mean besides
> counterspells.
>
> So does this mean that your "base MR" is just your Willpower? And that
> the only ways to use EP to improve it are to increase Willpower and
> learn counterspells?
>
> Thanks in advance.
>
> CK
>

Brock, my group has been going for twenty years or more. We started with AD&D 2nd Ed and pretty much stayed with that or the developments. We have a player who does not like any game that requires the player to roll under a target number althogh she has played GURPS. Righ now we are playing Lo5R. The fact that DQ is out of print and basically unsupported hurts. Shadowrun and so forth are considered "too gloomy" and RoleMaster is rejected because of the infamous instant death "66" roll. The pointis that D&D is known and common. I think Lo5R is accepted because we had the one Oriental Adventures campaign under D&D. Very few people like to try new things, especially once they are comfortable with something else. I like D&D 3.5 and I like GURPS, and I would love to try DQ and maybe a few others but I am against the idea of "this is comfortable" and cannot get the players to budge. Table-top RPGs peaked, I think, in the early 80's when the hobby had slightly over 2 million players. RPGs need to be played consistently or else you have trouble withregaining the character. I have several characters from dead campaigns that I ejoyed greatly but after all this time, I would have trouble playing again - even Tunk my favorite character, an AD&D fighter with a 4 INT. So as people grow older and the press of family and work ct the time available, people drop off. Young people may play in college but drop it because it was a "college thing" and not something suitable for a woring person. Just some thoughts. Christopher D. Cole The World's Tallest Dwarf --- On Wed, 12/16/09, brockrwood <brockrwood@eurekais.com> wrote: From: brockrwood <brockrwood@eurekais.com> Subject: [dq-rules] Re: Why Not Just Let Skills Be Broadly-defined "Professions" and Role-play the Rest? To: dq-rules@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, December 16, 2009, 6:17 PM   Thanks for the tip on religion in DQ - I will look for that download! Christopher, can I ask why your players refused to play DragonQuest? I have found it difficult to recruit players for my DragonQuest campaign here in the Denver, Colorado, USA area. I have a couple of committed players who have become sold on the system, but that is about it. We need 2 to 4 more players in order make the game sessions more dynamic and fun. We had 5 players at one time, but three of them dropped out for various reasons. In the Denver metopolitan area, there seems to be quite a bit of interest in D&D 3.x and even D&D 4.0. There are also some other D20 devotees, such as a couple of Pathfinder groups. There are also a couple of Shadowrun groups that seem fairly active. Other than that, with every other system, new or old, it seems to be a struggle to recruit players. Is there a decline, in general, in interest in PnP role-playing games and the fantasy setting in particular? I have been toying with the idea of simply giving up on the DragonQuest campaign and just running a D&D 3.5 campaign just so I can have *some* sort of regular RPG fix. I don't want to go there as I am really fond of DQ, even with its warts, and don't want to give up on it unless I have to. Thoughts? Anyone? - Brock --- In dq-rules@yahoogroup s.com, Christopher Cole <gruundehn@. ..> wrote: > > Somewhere in the files that can be downloaded are rules for religion; prototypes that didn't get published before SPI went under or someone else's house rules that they donated. I think I still hve the copies I downloaded when I was trying to start up a DQ campaign (my group absolutely refused to play the system) so I haven't looked at them for a long while but i theyare still here, you might look at them. >   > Christopher D. Cole > The World's Tsallest Dwarf > > --- On Tue, 12/8/09, brockrwood <brockrwood@ ...> wrote: > > > From: brockrwood <brockrwood@ ...> > Subject: [dq-rules] Re: Why Not Just Let Skills Be Broadly-defined "Professions" and Role-play the Rest? > To: dq-rules@yahoogroup s.com > Date: Tuesday, December 8, 2009, 8:12 PM > > >   > > > > Cool stuff! > > I like your non-fantasy settings.. Have other GMs or game designers done that with DQ - used the system in a setting other than traditional medieval-style fantasy? > > - Brock > > --- In dq-rules@yahoogroup s.com, davis john <jrd123@> wrote: > > > > > > This is what I have done in my historical based games using Dragonquest (Black Powder Tales of 1649 & Victorianquest 1865) > > > > You have a skill group (profession, calling, training...or however you wish to word it). The % chance of that skill is the same for all skills within the group and played fairly loosely > > > > So for example: > > > > Theologist: The skills within this cover such things as: > > Deliver `sermon' (whether to put fear into > > believers, drive out spirits, settle the dead, exorcism, etc); Religious > > doctrines; Lecture; Debate; > > Skill chance is WP+PC+4/rank plus a random d10, so say ~35% at level 1 > > > > Gamekeeper. The skills within this cover such things as: > > Determine true north. Determine distance > > travelled. Find the path. Detect ambush. Tracking. Identify flora & fauna. > > Create restorative. Special Environment( +2) :HILLS > > Skill chance is END+PC+4/rank plus a random d10, say so ~35% at level 1 > > > > Then, and taking from spell backfire...if you fail by less than 40% you still suceed, but with variable effects of time, consequence etc.....so for a skill like Scholar...you may solve the clue and determine when the Steamer leaves for the colonies, but will you be in time to catch it?? > > > > Takes away much crucnh from the game, but still adding in option/development that DQ players adore > > > > I have run BPT and VQ a lot this year, and will be running more at CONCEPTION Con in the SW UK in January. > > > > John > > > > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _ > > Add your Gmail and Yahoo! Mail email accounts into Hotmail - it's easy > > http://clk.atdmt. com/UKM/go/ 186394592/ direct/01/ > > >

Thanks for the insights, Christopher!

I have to admit that I am not a huge fan of the "dark" and "gloomy" RPG's currently in fashion. Having grown up in the "golden era" of RPG's in the late 70's and early 80's, I prefer the traditional fantasy worlds of the early RPG's.

I am an older RPGer rediscovering the fun of the hobby. There are a few of us out there, now. I hope it's a trend - older RPG fans from the 80's getting back into gaming. Sort of like "BARs" ("born-again rocketeers" - middle-aged and older folks getting back into the hobby of model rocketry after being out of it for 2 decades).

I am not a huge fan of the D20 system, but I would be willing to run it just to get some folks interested in regular RPG sessions. D20 based RPG's (D&D and Pathfinder in my neck of the woods) seem to have the largest available base of players.

I am willing to try anything, but I can understand folks who want to stick with what they know. It's a time-value thing. Today, our lives are filled with commitments like never before. An RPG player, to spend a precious evening of his/her time playing an RPG, needs to know he/she will have a good time. He/she knows what D&D is, how it is played, and probably how the fun will unfold. I can understand why someone would want to "stick with D&D" rather than risk an evening with another system he/she is not familiar with that might not be his/her cup of tea and thus not much fun. I don't agree with that point of view, but I can understand it.

- Brock

--- In dq-rules@yahoogroups.com, Christopher Cole <gruundehn@...> wrote:
>
> Brock, my group has been going for twenty years or more. We started with AD&D 2nd Ed and pretty much stayed with that or the developments. We have a player who does not like any game that requires the player to roll under a target number althogh she has played GURPS. Righ now we are playing Lo5R. The fact that DQ is out of print and basically unsupported hurts. Shadowrun and so forth are considered "too gloomy" and RoleMaster is rejected because of the infamous instant death "66" roll. The pointis that D&D is known and common. I think Lo5R is accepted because we had the one Oriental Adventures campaign under D&D. Very few people like to try new things, especially once they are comfortable with something else. I like D&D 3.5 and I like GURPS, and I would love to try DQ and maybe a few others but I am against the idea of "this is comfortable" and cannot get the players to budge. Table-top RPGs peaked, I think, in the early 80's when the hobby had slightly
> over 2 million players. RPGs need to be played consistently or else you have trouble withregaining the character. I have several characters from dead campaigns that I ejoyed greatly but after all this time, I would have trouble playing again - even Tunk my favorite character, an AD&D fighter with a 4 INT. So as people grow older and the press of family and work ct the time available, people drop off. Young people may play in college but drop it because it was a "college thing" and not something suitable for a woring person. Just some thoughts.
> Christopher D. Cole
> The World's Tallest Dwarf
>
> --- On Wed, 12/16/09, brockrwood <brockrwood@...> wrote:
>
>
> From: brockrwood <brockrwood@...>
> Subject: [dq-rules] Re: Why Not Just Let Skills Be Broadly-defined "Professions" and Role-play the Rest?
> To: dq-rules@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Wednesday, December 16, 2009, 6:17 PM
>
>
>  
>
>
>
> Thanks for the tip on religion in DQ - I will look for that download!
>
> Christopher, can I ask why your players refused to play DragonQuest? I have found it difficult to recruit players for my DragonQuest campaign here in the Denver, Colorado, USA area. I have a couple of committed players who have become sold on the system, but that is about it. We need 2 to 4 more players in order make the game sessions more dynamic and fun. We had 5 players at one time, but three of them dropped out for various reasons.
>
> In the Denver metopolitan area, there seems to be quite a bit of interest in D&D 3.x and even D&D 4.0. There are also some other D20 devotees, such as a couple of Pathfinder groups. There are also a couple of Shadowrun groups that seem fairly active.
>
> Other than that, with every other system, new or old, it seems to be a struggle to recruit players.
>
> Is there a decline, in general, in interest in PnP role-playing games and the fantasy setting in particular?
>
> I have been toying with the idea of simply giving up on the DragonQuest campaign and just running a D&D 3.5 campaign just so I can have *some* sort of regular RPG fix. I don't want to go there as I am really fond of DQ, even with its warts, and don't want to give up on it unless I have to.
>
> Thoughts? Anyone?
>
> - Brock
>
> --- In dq-rules@yahoogroup s.com, Christopher Cole <gruundehn@ ..> wrote:
> >
> > Somewhere in the files that can be downloaded are rules for religion; prototypes that didn't get published before SPI went under or someone else's house rules that they donated. I think I still hve the copies I downloaded when I was trying to start up a DQ campaign (my group absolutely refused to play the system) so I haven't looked at them for a long while but i theyare still here, you might look at them.
> >  
> > Christopher D. Cole
> > The World's Tsallest Dwarf
> >
> > --- On Tue, 12/8/09, brockrwood <brockrwood@ ...> wrote:
> >
> >
> > From: brockrwood <brockrwood@ ...>
> > Subject: [dq-rules] Re: Why Not Just Let Skills Be Broadly-defined "Professions" and Role-play the Rest?
> > To: dq-rules@yahoogroup s.com
> > Date: Tuesday, December 8, 2009, 8:12 PM
> >
> >
> >  
> >
> >
> >
> > Cool stuff!
> >
> > I like your non-fantasy settings. Have other GMs or game designers done that with DQ - used the system in a setting other than traditional medieval-style fantasy?
> >
> > - Brock
> >
> > --- In dq-rules@yahoogroup s.com, davis john <jrd123@> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > This is what I have done in my historical based games using Dragonquest (Black Powder Tales of 1649 & Victorianquest 1865)
> > >
> > > You have a skill group (profession, calling, training...or however you wish to word it). The % chance of that skill is the same for all skills within the group and played fairly loosely
> > >
> > > So for example:
> > >
> > > Theologist: The skills within this cover such things as:
> > > Deliver `sermon' (whether to put fear into
> > > believers, drive out spirits, settle the dead, exorcism, etc); Religious
> > > doctrines; Lecture; Debate;
> > > Skill chance is WP+PC+4/rank plus a random d10, so say ~35% at level 1
> > >
> > > Gamekeeper. The skills within this cover such things as:
> > > Determine true north. Determine distance
> > > travelled. Find the path. Detect ambush. Tracking. Identify flora & fauna.
> > > Create restorative. Special Environment( +2) :HILLS
> > > Skill chance is END+PC+4/rank plus a random d10, say so ~35% at level 1
> > >
> > > Then, and taking from spell backfire...if you fail by less than 40% you still suceed, but with variable effects of time, consequence etc....so for a skill like Scholar...you may solve the clue and determine when the Steamer leaves for the colonies, but will you be in time to catch it??
> > >
> > > Takes away much crucnh from the game, but still adding in option/development that DQ players adore
> > >
> > > I have run BPT and VQ a lot this year, and will be running more at CONCEPTION Con in the SW UK in January.
> > >
> > > John
> > >
> > > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
> > > Add your Gmail and Yahoo! Mail email accounts into Hotmail - it's easy
> > > http://clk.atdmt com/UKM/go/ 186394592/ direct/01/
> > >
> >
>

Me also, I started in thesummer of '79 with a mix of AD&D, original D&D, & Empie of the Petal Throne that was run in the City State of the Invincible Overlord. I took a short break because I got tired of AD&D 2nd and the group was running Dragon Lance and I did not like the setting. I have played the test run of 4th Ed D&D and HATE it. I ike the game system of Shadowrun over Cyberpunk but the setting is not one to like.   Christophe Cole, The World's Tallest Dwarf --- On Sat, 12/19/09, Brock <brockrwood@eurekais.com> wrote: From: Brock <brockrwood@eurekais.com> Subject: [dq-rules] Re: Why Not Just Let Skills Be Broadly-defined "Professions" and Role-play the Rest? To: dq-rules@yahoogroups.com Date: Saturday, December 19, 2009, 12:46 AM   Thanks for the insights, Christopher! I have to admit that I am not a huge fan of the "dark" and "gloomy" RPG's currently in fashion. Having grown up in the "golden era" of RPG's in the late 70's and early 80's, I prefer the traditional fantasy worlds of the early RPG's. I am an older RPGer rediscovering the fun of the hobby. There are a few of us out there, now. I hope it's a trend - older RPG fans from the 80's getting back into gaming. Sort of like "BARs" ("born-again rocketeers" - middle-aged and older folks getting back into the hobby of model rocketry after being out of it for 2 decades). I am not a huge fan of the D20 system, but I would be willing to run it just to get some folks interested in regular RPG sessions. D20 based RPG's (D&D and Pathfinder in my neck of the woods) seem to have the largest available base of players. I am willing to try anything, but I can understand folks who want to stick with what they know. It's a time-value thing. Today, our lives are filled with commitments like never before. An RPG player, to spend a precious evening of his/her time playing an RPG, needs to know he/she will have a good time. He/she knows what D&D is, how it is played, and probably how the fun will unfold. I can understand why someone would want to "stick with D&D" rather than risk an evening with another system he/she is not familiar with that might not be his/her cup of tea and thus not much fun. I don't agree with that point of view, but I can understand it. - Brock --- In dq-rules@yahoogroup s.com, Christopher Cole <gruundehn@. ..> wrote: > > Brock, my group has been going for twenty years or more. We started with AD&D 2nd Ed and pretty much stayed with that or the developments. We have a player who does not like any game that requires the player to roll under a target number althogh she has played GURPS. Righ now we are playing Lo5R. The fact that DQ is out of print and basically unsupported hurts. Shadowrun and so forth are considered "too gloomy" and RoleMaster is rejected because of the infamous instant death "66" roll. The pointis that D&D is known and common. I think Lo5R is accepted because we had the one Oriental Adventures campaign under D&D. Very few people like to try new things, especially once they are comfortable with something else. I like D&D 3.5 and I like GURPS, and I would love to try DQ and maybe a few others but I am against the idea of "this is comfortable" and cannot get the players to budge. Table-top RPGs peaked, I think, in the early 80's when the hobby had slightly > over 2 million players. RPGs need to be played consistently or else you have trouble withregaining the character. I have several characters from dead campaigns that I ejoyed greatly but after all this time, I would have trouble playing again - even Tunk my favorite character, an AD&D fighter with a 4 INT.. So as people grow older and the press of family and work ct the time available, people drop off. Young people may play in college but drop it because it was a "college thing" and not something suitable for a woring person. Just some thoughts. > Christopher D. Cole > The World's Tallest Dwarf > > --- On Wed, 12/16/09, brockrwood <brockrwood@ ....> wrote: > > > From: brockrwood <brockrwood@ ...> > Subject: [dq-rules] Re: Why Not Just Let Skills Be Broadly-defined "Professions" and Role-play the Rest? > To: dq-rules@yahoogroup s.com > Date: Wednesday, December 16, 2009, 6:17 PM > > >   > > > > Thanks for the tip on religion in DQ - I will look for that download! > > Christopher, can I ask why your players refused to play DragonQuest? I have found it difficult to recruit players for my DragonQuest campaign here in the Denver, Colorado, USA area. I have a couple of committed players who have become sold on the system, but that is about it. We need 2 to 4 more players in order make the game sessions more dynamic and fun. We had 5 players at one time, but three of them dropped out for various reasons. > > In the Denver metopolitan area, there seems to be quite a bit of interest in D&D 3.x and even D&D 4.0. There are also some other D20 devotees, such as a couple of Pathfinder groups. There are also a couple of Shadowrun groups that seem fairly active. > > Other than that, with every other system, new or old, it seems to be a struggle to recruit players. > > Is there a decline, in general, in interest in PnP role-playing games and the fantasy setting in particular? > > I have been toying with the idea of simply giving up on the DragonQuest campaign and just running a D&D 3.5 campaign just so I can have *some* sort of regular RPG fix. I don't want to go there as I am really fond of DQ, even with its warts, and don't want to give up on it unless I have to. > > Thoughts? Anyone? > > - Brock > > --- In dq-rules@yahoogroup s.com, Christopher Cole <gruundehn@ ..> wrote: > > > > Somewhere in the files that can be downloaded are rules for religion; prototypes that didn't get published before SPI went under or someone else's house rules that they donated. I think I still hve the copies I downloaded when I was trying to start up a DQ campaign (my group absolutely refused to play the system) so I haven't looked at them for a long while but i theyare still here, you might look at them. > >   > > Christopher D. Cole > > The World's Tsallest Dwarf > > > > --- On Tue, 12/8/09, brockrwood <brockrwood@ ...> wrote: > > > > > > From: brockrwood <brockrwood@ ...> > > Subject: [dq-rules] Re: Why Not Just Let Skills Be Broadly-defined "Professions" and Role-play the Rest? > > To: dq-rules@yahoogroup s.com > > Date: Tuesday, December 8, 2009, 8:12 PM > > > > > >   > > > > > > > > Cool stuff! > > > > I like your non-fantasy settings. Have other GMs or game designers done that with DQ - used the system in a setting other than traditional medieval-style fantasy? > > > > - Brock > > > > --- In dq-rules@yahoogroup s.com, davis john <jrd123@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > This is what I have done in my historical based games using Dragonquest (Black Powder Tales of 1649 & Victorianquest 1865) > > > > > > You have a skill group (profession, calling, training....or however you wish to word it). The % chance of that skill is the same for all skills within the group and played fairly loosely > > > > > > So for example: > > > > > > Theologist: The skills within this cover such things as: > > > Deliver `sermon' (whether to put fear into > > > believers, drive out spirits, settle the dead, exorcism, etc); Religious > > > doctrines; Lecture; Debate; > > > Skill chance is WP+PC+4/rank plus a random d10, so say ~35% at level 1 > > > > > > Gamekeeper. The skills within this cover such things as: > > > Determine true north. Determine distance > > > travelled. Find the path. Detect ambush. Tracking. Identify flora & fauna. > > > Create restorative. Special Environment( +2) :HILLS > > > Skill chance is END+PC+4/rank plus a random d10, say so ~35% at level 1 > > > > > > Then, and taking from spell backfire...if you fail by less than 40% you still suceed, but with variable effects of time, consequence etc....so for a skill like Scholar...you may solve the clue and determine when the Steamer leaves for the colonies, but will you be in time to catch it?? > > > > > > Takes away much crucnh from the game, but still adding in option/development that DQ players adore > > > > > > I have run BPT and VQ a lot this year, and will be running more at CONCEPTION Con in the SW UK in January. > > > > > > John > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _ > > > Add your Gmail and Yahoo! Mail email accounts into Hotmail - it's easy > > > http://clk.atdmt. com/UKM/go/ 186394592/ direct/01/ > > > > > >

Here in Colorado Springs, I am fairly certain that my wife and I are the only DQ players around. The game ad boards are full of advertisements for new systems to be played, and while I love to try new systems, my wife's gaming time is more limited.

She pretty much wants to stick with Gurps and DQ, or if she is really desperate for a gaming fix, she might play some 3.5/ 4.0.

I can't say I blame her really. Since we relocated the first time years ago, we haven't been in a group where things clicked as well as our Gurps and DQ group.

At any rate - old gaming grognard who has been pretty constant in the scene since the 70's. I'm quite pleased to see more of the older gamers coming back to the hobby after all of these years.

--- In dq-rules@yahoogroups.com, Christopher Cole <gruundehn@...> wrote:
>
> Me also, I started in thesummer of '79 with a mix of AD&D, original D&D, & Empie of the Petal Throne that was run in the City State of the Invincible Overlord. I took a short break because I got tired of AD&D 2nd and the group was running Dragon Lance and I did not like the setting. I have played the test run of 4th Ed D&D and HATE it. I ike the game system of Shadowrun over Cyberpunk but the setting is not one to like.
>  
> Christophe Cole, The World's Tallest Dwarf
>
> --- On Sat, 12/19/09, Brock <brockrwood@...> wrote:
>
>
> From: Brock <brockrwood@...>
> Subject: [dq-rules] Re: Why Not Just Let Skills Be Broadly-defined "Professions" and Role-play the Rest?
> To: dq-rules@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Saturday, December 19, 2009, 12:46 AM
>
>
>  
>
>
>
> Thanks for the insights, Christopher!
>
> I have to admit that I am not a huge fan of the "dark" and "gloomy" RPG's currently in fashion. Having grown up in the "golden era" of RPG's in the late 70's and early 80's, I prefer the traditional fantasy worlds of the early RPG's.
>
> I am an older RPGer rediscovering the fun of the hobby. There are a few of us out there, now. I hope it's a trend - older RPG fans from the 80's getting back into gaming. Sort of like "BARs" ("born-again rocketeers" - middle-aged and older folks getting back into the hobby of model rocketry after being out of it for 2 decades).
>
> I am not a huge fan of the D20 system, but I would be willing to run it just to get some folks interested in regular RPG sessions. D20 based RPG's (D&D and Pathfinder in my neck of the woods) seem to have the largest available base of players.
>
> I am willing to try anything, but I can understand folks who want to stick with what they know. It's a time-value thing. Today, our lives are filled with commitments like never before. An RPG player, to spend a precious evening of his/her time playing an RPG, needs to know he/she will have a good time. He/she knows what D&D is, how it is played, and probably how the fun will unfold. I can understand why someone would want to "stick with D&D" rather than risk an evening with another system he/she is not familiar with that might not be his/her cup of tea and thus not much fun. I don't agree with that point of view, but I can understand it.
>
> - Brock
>
> --- In dq-rules@yahoogroup s.com, Christopher Cole <gruundehn@ ..> wrote:
> >
> > Brock, my group has been going for twenty years or more. We started with AD&D 2nd Ed and pretty much stayed with that or the developments. We have a player who does not like any game that requires the player to roll under a target number althogh she has played GURPS. Righ now we are playing Lo5R. The fact that DQ is out of print and basically unsupported hurts. Shadowrun and so forth are considered "too gloomy" and RoleMaster is rejected because of the infamous instant death "66" roll. The pointis that D&D is known and common. I think Lo5R is accepted because we had the one Oriental Adventures campaign under D&D. Very few people like to try new things, especially once they are comfortable with something else. I like D&D 3.5 and I like GURPS, and I would love to try DQ and maybe a few others but I am against the idea of "this is comfortable" and cannot get the players to budge. Table-top RPGs peaked, I think, in the early 80's when the hobby had
> slightly
> > over 2 million players. RPGs need to be played consistently or else you have trouble withregaining the character. I have several characters from dead campaigns that I ejoyed greatly but after all this time, I would have trouble playing again - even Tunk my favorite character, an AD&D fighter with a 4 INT. So as people grow older and the press of family and work ct the time available, people drop off. Young people may play in college but drop it because it was a "college thing" and not something suitable for a woring person. Just some thoughts.
> > Christopher D. Cole
> > The World's Tallest Dwarf
> >
> > --- On Wed, 12/16/09, brockrwood <brockrwood@ ...> wrote:
> >
> >
> > From: brockrwood <brockrwood@ ...>
> > Subject: [dq-rules] Re: Why Not Just Let Skills Be Broadly-defined "Professions" and Role-play the Rest?
> > To: dq-rules@yahoogroup s.com
> > Date: Wednesday, December 16, 2009, 6:17 PM
> >
> >
> >  
> >
> >
> >
> > Thanks for the tip on religion in DQ - I will look for that download!
> >
> > Christopher, can I ask why your players refused to play DragonQuest? I have found it difficult to recruit players for my DragonQuest campaign here in the Denver, Colorado, USA area. I have a couple of committed players who have become sold on the system, but that is about it. We need 2 to 4 more players in order make the game sessions more dynamic and fun. We had 5 players at one time, but three of them dropped out for various reasons.
> >
> > In the Denver metopolitan area, there seems to be quite a bit of interest in D&D 3.x and even D&D 4.0. There are also some other D20 devotees, such as a couple of Pathfinder groups. There are also a couple of Shadowrun groups that seem fairly active.
> >
> > Other than that, with every other system, new or old, it seems to be a struggle to recruit players.
> >
> > Is there a decline, in general, in interest in PnP role-playing games and the fantasy setting in particular?
> >
> > I have been toying with the idea of simply giving up on the DragonQuest campaign and just running a D&D 3.5 campaign just so I can have *some* sort of regular RPG fix. I don't want to go there as I am really fond of DQ, even with its warts, and don't want to give up on it unless I have to.
> >
> > Thoughts? Anyone?
> >
> > - Brock
> >
> > --- In dq-rules@yahoogroup s.com, Christopher Cole <gruundehn@ ..> wrote:
> > >
> > > Somewhere in the files that can be downloaded are rules for religion; prototypes that didn't get published before SPI went under or someone else's house rules that they donated. I think I still hve the copies I downloaded when I was trying to start up a DQ campaign (my group absolutely refused to play the system) so I haven't looked at them for a long while but i theyare still here, you might look at them.
> > >  
> > > Christopher D. Cole
> > > The World's Tsallest Dwarf
> > >
> > > --- On Tue, 12/8/09, brockrwood <brockrwood@ ...> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > From: brockrwood <brockrwood@ ...>
> > > Subject: [dq-rules] Re: Why Not Just Let Skills Be Broadly-defined "Professions" and Role-play the Rest?
> > > To: dq-rules@yahoogroup s.com
> > > Date: Tuesday, December 8, 2009, 8:12 PM
> > >
> > >
> > >  
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Cool stuff!
> > >
> > > I like your non-fantasy settings. Have other GMs or game designers done that with DQ - used the system in a setting other than traditional medieval-style fantasy?
> > >
> > > - Brock
> > >
> > > --- In dq-rules@yahoogroup s.com, davis john <jrd123@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > This is what I have done in my historical based games using Dragonquest (Black Powder Tales of 1649 & Victorianquest 1865)
> > > >
> > > > You have a skill group (profession, calling, training...or however you wish to word it). The % chance of that skill is the same for all skills within the group and played fairly loosely
> > > >
> > > > So for example:
> > > >
> > > > Theologist: The skills within this cover such things as:
> > > > Deliver `sermon' (whether to put fear into
> > > > believers, drive out spirits, settle the dead, exorcism, etc); Religious
> > > > doctrines; Lecture; Debate;
> > > > Skill chance is WP+PC+4/rank plus a random d10, so say ~35% at level 1
> > > >
> > > > Gamekeeper. The skills within this cover such things as:
> > > > Determine true north. Determine distance
> > > > travelled. Find the path. Detect ambush. Tracking. Identify flora & fauna.
> > > > Create restorative. Special Environment( +2) :HILLS
> > > > Skill chance is END+PC+4/rank plus a random d10, say so ~35% at level 1
> > > >
> > > > Then, and taking from spell backfire...if you fail by less than 40% you still suceed, but with variable effects of time, consequence etc....so for a skill like Scholar...you may solve the clue and determine when the Steamer leaves for the colonies, but will you be in time to catch it??
> > > >
> > > > Takes away much crucnh from the game, but still adding in option/development that DQ players adore
> > > >
> > > > I have run BPT and VQ a lot this year, and will be running more at CONCEPTION Con in the SW UK in January.
> > > >
> > > > John
> > > >
> > > > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
> > > > Add your Gmail and Yahoo! Mail email accounts into Hotmail - it's easy
> > > > http://clk.atdmt com/UKM/go/ 186394592/ direct/01/
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

Things have changed since I was so active in rolegaming 30 years ago. At that time, it was assumed that any gamesmaster was going to mess with the rules, including fudging them to make a better story. (If someone said their character was going to swing from a chandelier and dive into the guards around the sheriff's table, I didn't care what they rolled -- they were going to succeed and we were gonna have fun!)

Quoting Zheb:

First, MR is based on Willpower, so the only way to permanently increase
it is to buy more WP.
Second, non-mages get a + 20 bonus to MR because they aren't good
conductors of the energy.
Third, some colleges give bonuses and penalties to MR based on the
attacker's college. Water vs. Fire and Air vs. Earth come to mind here.
See rule 34.1.
Fourth, remember that a character's Aspect can give a boost to MR under
the conditions specified.
Fifth, MR can also be aided by amulets and charms made by adepts of E&E,
Shaping and Black Magics.
Sixth, adepts other than Namers may only learn counterspells of other
colleges at Rank 0.
Seventh, a target may only be protected by one counterspell at a time,
and the counterspell will only affect the magic of one college.

I hope this helps you.

Zheb


This is what I thought. So the apparent effect should be that--except
for learning counterspells--MR does not increase much as characters
progress. Since offensive magic skills do progress substantially, I'm
wondering if this has th effect that more advanced characters
are--typically--more vulnerable to each other than a pair of low-level
characters would be to each other?

Chaim

--
Chaim Kaufmann
Associate Professor
International Relations
Lehigh University
ck07@lehigh.edu

In a word, Chaim, yes. Just as two characters of equal attributes and equipment become more deadly to each other with their weapons, so, too, do the spells and rituals of the various colleges become more effective. Indeed, as spell rank increases and reduces the risk of backfire, most spells become more potent with rank, making their progress even more effective than gaining rank with a weapon.

While my players balked at backfire, when you compare the advantages of being an adept to the +20 MR and the extra generation points saved on MA, magic is the fair-haired path in DQ. Spells advance in learning steps of 1/14th of what weapons need, and a clever mix of cheap magic and cheap weapons can get an adept to Adventurer or even Hero status in far less game time than the warrior's path.

Zheb

--- In dq-rules@yahoogroups.com, Chaim Kaufmann <ck07@...> wrote:
>
>
> Quoting Zheb:
>
> First, MR is based on Willpower, so the only way to permanently increase
> it is to buy more WP.
> Second, non-mages get a + 20 bonus to MR because they aren't good
> conductors of the energy.
> Third, some colleges give bonuses and penalties to MR based on the
> attacker's college. Water vs. Fire and Air vs. Earth come to mind here.
> See rule 34.1.
> Fourth, remember that a character's Aspect can give a boost to MR under
> the conditions specified.
> Fifth, MR can also be aided by amulets and charms made by adepts of E&E,
> Shaping and Black Magics.
> Sixth, adepts other than Namers may only learn counterspells of other
> colleges at Rank 0.
> Seventh, a target may only be protected by one counterspell at a time,
> and the counterspell will only affect the magic of one college.
>
> I hope this helps you.
>
> Zheb
>
>
> This is what I thought. So the apparent effect should be that--except
> for learning counterspells--MR does not increase much as characters
> progress. Since offensive magic skills do progress substantially, I'm
> wondering if this has th effect that more advanced characters
> are--typically--more vulnerable to each other than a pair of low-level
> characters would be to each other?
>
> Chaim
>
> --
> Chaim Kaufmann
> Associate Professor
> International Relations
> Lehigh University
> ck07@...
>

Mages also have Purfication.

Another improvement to MR is Ritual of Enchantment. (Know a good Greater
Summoner?)

~Jeffery~

Famous last words of all Greater Summoners, "Oops." - From the Adventurer's
Guild Book of Lore, or How to Stay Alive, vol. 1

----- Original Message -----
From: "Chaim Kaufmann" <ck07@lehigh.edu>
To: <dq-rules@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, December 22, 2009 12:57 PM
Subject: [dq-rules] Re:Magic resistance and ways to use EP


>
> Quoting Zheb:
>
> First, MR is based on Willpower, so the only way to permanently increase
> it is to buy more WP.
> Second, non-mages get a + 20 bonus to MR because they aren't good
> conductors of the energy.
> Third, some colleges give bonuses and penalties to MR based on the
> attacker's college. Water vs. Fire and Air vs. Earth come to mind here.
> See rule 34.1.
> Fourth, remember that a character's Aspect can give a boost to MR under
> the conditions specified.
> Fifth, MR can also be aided by amulets and charms made by adepts of E&E,
> Shaping and Black Magics.
> Sixth, adepts other than Namers may only learn counterspells of other
> colleges at Rank 0.
> Seventh, a target may only be protected by one counterspell at a time,
> and the counterspell will only affect the magic of one college.
>
> I hope this helps you.
>
> Zheb
>
>
> This is what I thought. So the apparent effect should be that--except
> for learning counterspells--MR does not increase much as characters
> progress. Since offensive magic skills do progress substantially, I'm
> wondering if this has th effect that more advanced characters
> are--typically--more vulnerable to each other than a pair of low-level
> characters would be to each other?
>
> Chaim
>
> --
> Chaim Kaufmann
> Associate Professor
> International Relations
> Lehigh University
> ck07@lehigh.edu
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> To Post a message, send it to: dq-rules@eGroups.com
> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
> dq-rules-unsubscribe@eGroups.comYahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

I am stumped by confusing passages in the rules that relate to two pretty fundamental game concepts: What constitutes "death" and when a character can be "ressurected" from the dead.

In the rules (Second Edition, Bantam), it says that when you take damage that reduces your endurance points to *zero*, you are dead. See Section 19.

In addition, under the description of the skills of a Healer, the rules state that

"When a being's endurance value is reduced to zero or less, that being may no longer be resurrected. Presumably, what remains of his life-essence is absorbed by one of the Great Powers."

See Section 55.7.

But, at the same time, a Healer *can* perform a "resurrection" of a dead person if he is rank *8* or higher. See Section 55.1 and Section 55.8.

Huh? So, what is the *real* rule about resurection? According to the rules, you are "dead" when you reach zero endurance points. Also according to the rules, you *cannot* be ressurected when you reach zero endurance points. But the Healer specifically *can* ressurect "the dead." In fact, any healing done at rank 8 (resurrection) or above is called a "miracle." See Section 55.

Since a Healer obviously *can* resurrect the dead, I need to figure out what the game designers meant when they said, "When a being's endurance value is reduced to zero or less, that being may no longer be resurrected." Does that mean some sort of permanent endurance loss as opposed to endurance loss that can be "healed"?

Any help appreciated!

- Brock

--- In dq-rules@yahoogroups.com, "Brock" <brockrwood@...> wrote:

>
> I am stumped by confusing passages in the rules that relate to two pretty fundamental game concepts: What constitutes "death" and when a character can be "ressurected" from the dead.
>
> In the rules (Second Edition, Bantam), it says that when you take damage that reduces your endurance points to *zero*, you are dead. See Section 19.
>
> In addition, under the description of the skills of a Healer, the rules state that
>
> "When a being's endurance value is reduced to zero or less, that being may no longer be resurrected. Presumably, what remains of his life-essence is absorbed by one of the Great Powers."
>
> See Section 55.7.
>
> But, at the same time, a Healer *can* perform a "resurrection" of a dead person if he is rank *8* or higher. See Section 55.1 and Section 55.8.
>
> Huh? So, what is the *real* rule about resurection? According to the rules, you are "dead" when you reach zero endurance points. Also according to the rules, you *cannot* be ressurected when you reach zero endurance points. But the Healer specifically *can* ressurect "the dead." In fact, any healing done at rank 8 (resurrection) or above is called a "miracle." See Section 55.
>
> Since a Healer obviously *can* resurrect the dead, I need to figure out what the game designers meant when they said, "When a being's endurance value is reduced to zero or less, that being may no longer be resurrected." Does that mean some sort of permanent endurance loss as opposed to endurance loss that can be "healed"?
>
> Any help appreciated!
>
> - Brock
>

because a character loses 1 pt of endurance permanently each time he is resurrected.

I believe what they are referring to is the Patient's Original Endurance score.

Each time an atttempted Resurrection roll fails you reduce their Permanent Endurance score by 1, if the Endurance value reaches zero or less then they can no longer be resurrected.

John F Rauchert, co-moderator

--- In dq-rules@yahoogroups.com, "Brock" <brockrwood@...> wrote:
>
> I am stumped by confusing passages in the rules that relate to two pretty fundamental game concepts: What constitutes "death" and when a character can be "ressurected" from the dead.
>
> In the rules (Second Edition, Bantam), it says that when you take damage that reduces your endurance points to *zero*, you are dead. See Section 19.
>
> In addition, under the description of the skills of a Healer, the rules state that
>
> "When a being's endurance value is reduced to zero or less, that being may no longer be resurrected. Presumably, what remains of his life-essence is absorbed by one of the Great Powers."
>
> See Section 55.7.
>
> But, at the same time, a Healer *can* perform a "resurrection" of a dead person if he is rank *8* or higher. See Section 55.1 and Section 55.8.
>
> Huh? So, what is the *real* rule about resurection? According to the rules, you are "dead" when you reach zero endurance points. Also according to the rules, you *cannot* be ressurected when you reach zero endurance points. But the Healer specifically *can* ressurect "the dead." In fact, any healing done at rank 8 (resurrection) or above is called a "miracle." See Section 55.
>
> Since a Healer obviously *can* resurrect the dead, I need to figure out what the game designers meant when they said, "When a being's endurance value is reduced to zero or less, that being may no longer be resurrected." Does that mean some sort of permanent endurance loss as opposed to endurance loss that can be "healed"?
>
> Any help appreciated!
>
> - Brock
>

OK, after reading section 55.7 carefully, again, I notice that this statement about a person with zero endurance not being able to be resurrected occurs near the discussion of how a failed (or successful) resurrection attempt results in the loss of one endurance point.

I have to assume that this loss of one endurance point statement refers to *permanent* loss from your *total number* of endurance points, as a dead person, by definition, has had his or her endurance reduced to "zero."

If that is true, then the statement, subsequently, about a person with "zero" endurance not being able to be resurrected means, it would seem, that when several resurrection attempts and/or other unfortunate events have lowered your *total* number of endurance points permanently to zero, *then* you can't be resurrected.

Is that how you guys read it? That's the only way I can interpret this and still reconcile it with the fact that a healer, can, in fact, resurrect people.

- Brock

--- In dq-rules@yahoogroups.com, "Brock" <brockrwood@...> wrote:
>
> I am stumped by confusing passages in the rules that relate to two pretty fundamental game concepts: What constitutes "death" and when a character can be "ressurected" from the dead.
>
> In the rules (Second Edition, Bantam), it says that when you take damage that reduces your endurance points to *zero*, you are dead. See Section 19.
>
> In addition, under the description of the skills of a Healer, the rules state that
>
> "When a being's endurance value is reduced to zero or less, that being may no longer be resurrected. Presumably, what remains of his life-essence is absorbed by one of the Great Powers."
>
> See Section 55.7.
>
> But, at the same time, a Healer *can* perform a "resurrection" of a dead person if he is rank *8* or higher. See Section 55.1 and Section 55.8.
>
> Huh? So, what is the *real* rule about resurection? According to the rules, you are "dead" when you reach zero endurance points. Also according to the rules, you *cannot* be ressurected when you reach zero endurance points. But the Healer specifically *can* ressurect "the dead." In fact, any healing done at rank 8 (resurrection) or above is called a "miracle." See Section 55.
>
> Since a Healer obviously *can* resurrect the dead, I need to figure out what the game designers meant when they said, "When a being's endurance value is reduced to zero or less, that being may no longer be resurrected." Does that mean some sort of permanent endurance loss as opposed to endurance loss that can be "healed"?
>
> Any help appreciated!
>
> - Brock
>

 

Spell of Fire Resistance and Spell of Resistance to Cold increase a characters' MR against those specific colleges.

Military Scientist skill can be used to increase WP, and therefore, to increase MR.

--- In dq-rules@yahoogroups.com, Chaim Kaufmann <ck07@...> wrote:
>
> Could someone enumerate for me all the ways in which a DQ (2nd ed.)
> character can use EP to improve Magic Resistance? For that matter,
> could someone explain magic resistance itself?
>
> Rule 25 says that a character's MR is "a funnction of their Willpower,
> modified by their knowledge, the presence of
> counterspells [and various circumstantial things like active resistance,
> consecrated ground etc.--things you can't change using EP]."
>
> Rule 31 says your MR is your MR except as modified in 31.4: i.e., by
> counterspells [and various circumstantial things]. I can't figure out
> what the reference in Rule 25 to "knowledge" might mean besides
> counterspells.
>
> So does this mean that your "base MR" is just your Willpower? And that
> the only ways to use EP to improve it are to increase Willpower and
> learn counterspells?
>
> Thanks in advance.
>
> CK
>

Thanks to everyone who responded! I think I get it now.

You know, I generally have a sense for how I will implement a rule in my campaign, and I just go with my gut feeling for what will work best in my campaign. That means tweaking or modifying rules I don't think work well in my campaign.

Still, I like to understand what the game designers intended before I throw it out and use my own rule!

- Brock

--- In dq-rules@yahoogroups.com, "Brock" <brockrwood@...> wrote:
>
> I am stumped by confusing passages in the rules that relate to two pretty fundamental game concepts: What constitutes "death" and when a character can be "ressurected" from the dead.
>
> In the rules (Second Edition, Bantam), it says that when you take damage that reduces your endurance points to *zero*, you are dead. See Section 19.
>
> In addition, under the description of the skills of a Healer, the rules state that
>
> "When a being's endurance value is reduced to zero or less, that being may no longer be resurrected. Presumably, what remains of his life-essence is absorbed by one of the Great Powers."
>
> See Section 55.7.
>
> But, at the same time, a Healer *can* perform a "resurrection" of a dead person if he is rank *8* or higher. See Section 55.1 and Section 55.8.
>
> Huh? So, what is the *real* rule about resurection? According to the rules, you are "dead" when you reach zero endurance points. Also according to the rules, you *cannot* be ressurected when you reach zero endurance points. But the Healer specifically *can* ressurect "the dead." In fact, any healing done at rank 8 (resurrection) or above is called a "miracle." See Section 55.
>
> Since a Healer obviously *can* resurrect the dead, I need to figure out what the game designers meant when they said, "When a being's endurance value is reduced to zero or less, that being may no longer be resurrected." Does that mean some sort of permanent endurance loss as opposed to endurance loss that can be "healed"?
>
> Any help appreciated!
>
> - Brock
>

Recently I've gotten interested again in DragonQuest, and so have been scouring the web looking for DQ-related material. Something I keep coming across is the belief that there's no reason for a character not to be a magic user, because of the obvious (spells and rituals) and not-so-obvious (endowments from your college) benefits.

I'm confused by this, because I always felt that a magic user had two serious drawbacks:

1) His/her Magic Resistance is 20 points lower than it otherwise would be.

2) He/she needs to put points into the Magical Aptitude stat. For example, if a player has 90 points to distribute among the six primary stats, a magic user would have an average of 15 points per stat, whereas a non-magic user could put MA at 5 (the minimum) and then be able to distribute 85 points among the five other stats (average of 17).

No one seems to mention this anywhere, so I'm wondering if I missed something in the rules about uses for MA other than casting and remembering spells and rituals. Does anyone know of such rules?

Actually, the point of the extra Character Creation points has been raised in other posts. No surprise that you've missed them since there are so many old posts and it is a pain to go through them and see what each one says. But there is one other point against adapts and that is weapons. Anon-adapt can use "real" weapons with full damage but until an adapt has enough in a damage spell to have it useful on a regular basis, the adapt is limited to non-metal weapons which have an increased chance of breaking and do less damage.   Christopher Cole The World's Tallest Dwarf --- On Wed, 4/21/10, frost57565 <thomas.frost@gmail.com> wrote: From: frost57565 <thomas.frost@gmail.com> Subject: [dq-rules] Does Magical Aptitude have any use for a non-magic user? To: dq-rules@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, April 21, 2010, 3:20 PM   Recently I've gotten interested again in DragonQuest, and so have been scouring the web looking for DQ-related material. Something I keep coming across is the belief that there's no reason for a character not to be a magic user, because of the obvious (spells and rituals) and not-so-obvious (endowments from your college) benefits. I'm confused by this, because I always felt that a magic user had two serious drawbacks: 1) His/her Magic Resistance is 20 points lower than it otherwise would be. 2) He/she needs to put points into the Magical Aptitude stat. For example, if a player has 90 points to distribute among the six primary stats, a magic user would have an average of 15 points per stat, whereas a non-magic user could put MA at 5 (the minimum) and then be able to distribute 85 points among the five other stats (average of 17). No one seems to mention this anywhere, so I'm wondering if I missed something in the rules about uses for MA other than casting and remembering spells and rituals. Does anyone know of such rules?

In dq-rules@yahoogroups.com, Christopher Cole <gruundehn@...> wrote:

>
> But there is one other point against adapts and that is weapons. Anon-adapt can use "real" weapons with full damage but until an adapt has enough in a damage spell to have it useful on a regular basis, the adapt is limited to non-metal weapons which have an increased chance of breaking and do less damage.

Ooh, forgot about that one.  Combined with everything else, it kinda makes me wonder why anyone would want to be an Adept.

  --tf

Nothing in the core rules, but you might think about these:

I was involved in a game once where Minor Magic was available to ANY character, regardless of whether he was a member of a magical college. Minor Magic is very handy and often overlooked (why the rules for it are in the Characteristics section has always been beyond me) part of the game. Several players spent some precious points on MA for their non-adept characters, and it was a fun game.

We also toyed with the idea of tying MA to the use of magic items, with the idea being that if your MA was dreadfully low, it was a reflection of a lack of being "plugged in" to the flow of mana, and therefore magical trinkets would be less likely to function properly. That never got off the drawing board, though.

--- In dq-rules@yahoogroups.com, "frost57565" <thomas.frost@...> wrote:
>
> Recently I've gotten interested again in DragonQuest, and so have been scouring the web looking for DQ-related material. Something I keep coming across is the belief that there's no reason for a character not to be a magic user, because of the obvious (spells and rituals) and not-so-obvious (endowments from your college) benefits.
>
> I'm confused by this, because I always felt that a magic user had two serious drawbacks:
>
> 1) His/her Magic Resistance is 20 points lower than it otherwise would be.
>
> 2) He/she needs to put points into the Magical Aptitude stat. For example, if a player has 90 points to distribute among the six primary stats, a magic user would have an average of 15 points per stat, whereas a non-magic user could put MA at 5 (the minimum) and then be able to distribute 85 points among the five other stats (average of 17).
>
> No one seems to mention this anywhere, so I'm wondering if I missed something in the rules about uses for MA other than casting and remembering spells and rituals. Does anyone know of such rules?
>

Has anyone toyed with a way for shapers to make items that are always on, so far as shaped spells? Such as a sword that is always a Weapon of Cold, and doesnt require a cast check to activate.

The shaping rules for spells indicate that they act as permanently invested spells, which have to be cast with backfire possibility, etc.

Make sure the caster contributing the spell has a 100% chance of successfully casting it. They would only have to get it to 70% to avoid the possibility of Backfire which would be good enough for most folk. Having it take an extra pulse to activate 30% of the time adds tension. :)

Alternatively you could take a page out of the modified casting rules for DQ published in Thieves World and have it cost 1 extra Fatigue point for every 5% required to get the cast chance to 100%. As a part of a Shaping ritual this would be a permanent FT lost that would be regained by the expenditure of XP by the investor (or maybe the contributing caster?).

--- In dq-rules@yahoogroups.com, "Ted" <tmckelvey77089@...> wrote:
>
> Has anyone toyed with a way for shapers to make items that are always on, so far as shaped spells? Such as a sword that is always a Weapon of Cold, and doesnt require a cast check to activate.
>
> The shaping rules for spells indicate that they act as permanently invested spells, which have to be cast with backfire possibility, etc.
>

Subject: Dragonquest E Mail Players Required

Hi guys, after a break of 12 years I now have time to get my old group together. Now im looking for email playes for them to interact with, you will be given full details regarding present and past history, and geographical location, you will play the part of an influential character. Such as for example a lord or general, a powerful mage perhaps. I have so many roles to fill both good and evil.

So if you have a little time to spare please respond telling me what kind of character you would like to play and preferred aligngment.

Thanks guys and I look forward to hearing from you.

Stephen