Messages in DQ-RULES group. Page 23 of 40.

Group: DQ-RULES Message: 1108 From: Lance Dyas Date: 3/13/2007
Subject: Re: DragonQuest Review
Group: DQ-RULES Message: 1109 From: Lev Lafayette Date: 3/13/2007
Subject: Re: DragonQuest Review
Group: DQ-RULES Message: 1110 From: Lev Lafayette Date: 3/13/2007
Subject: Re: DragonQuest Review
Group: DQ-RULES Message: 1111 From: J. K. Hoffman Date: 3/14/2007
Subject: Re: DragonQuest Review
Group: DQ-RULES Message: 1112 From: WAKEFIELD Leigh Date: 3/14/2007
Subject: Re: DragonQuest Review
Group: DQ-RULES Message: 1113 From: Jeffery K. McGonagill Date: 3/14/2007
Subject: Re: DragonQuest Review
Group: DQ-RULES Message: 1114 From: John Corey Date: 3/14/2007
Subject: Re: DragonQuest Review
Group: DQ-RULES Message: 1115 From: Kong Xian Mu Date: 3/14/2007
Subject: Re: DragonQuest Review
Group: DQ-RULES Message: 1116 From: zheb_54 Date: 3/14/2007
Subject: Re: DragonQuest Review
Group: DQ-RULES Message: 1117 From: darkislephil Date: 3/14/2007
Subject: Re: DragonQuest Review
Group: DQ-RULES Message: 1118 From: darkislephil Date: 3/14/2007
Subject: Re: Shields
Group: DQ-RULES Message: 1119 From: Lev Lafayette Date: 3/14/2007
Subject: Re: DragonQuest Review
Group: DQ-RULES Message: 1120 From: Mandos Mitchinson Date: 3/14/2007
Subject: Re: Shields
Group: DQ-RULES Message: 1121 From: darkislephil Date: 3/14/2007
Subject: Re: Shields
Group: DQ-RULES Message: 1122 From: Mandos Mitchinson Date: 3/15/2007
Subject: Re: Shields
Group: DQ-RULES Message: 1123 From: darkislephil Date: 3/15/2007
Subject: Re: Shields
Group: DQ-RULES Message: 1124 From: Edi Date: 3/19/2007
Subject: DragonQuest Armaments
Group: DQ-RULES Message: 1125 From: dq-rules@yahoogroups.com Date: 3/19/2007
Subject: New file uploaded to dq-rules
Group: DQ-RULES Message: 1126 From: dq-rules@yahoogroups.com Date: 3/20/2007
Subject: New file uploaded to dq-rules
Group: DQ-RULES Message: 1127 From: Edi Date: 3/20/2007
Subject: Aspects Revisited
Group: DQ-RULES Message: 1128 From: Steven Wiles Date: 3/23/2007
Subject: Alchemy rules
Group: DQ-RULES Message: 1129 From: Steven Wiles Date: 3/23/2007
Subject: Alchemy rules
Group: DQ-RULES Message: 1130 From: darkislephil Date: 3/24/2007
Subject: Re: Alchemy rules
Group: DQ-RULES Message: 1131 From: Lance Dyas Date: 3/24/2007
Subject: Re: Alchemy rules
Group: DQ-RULES Message: 1132 From: Ran Hardin Date: 4/4/2007
Subject: Re: DragonQuest Review
Group: DQ-RULES Message: 1133 From: Lev Lafayette Date: 4/4/2007
Subject: Re: DragonQuest Review
Group: DQ-RULES Message: 1134 From: Jeffery K. McGonagill Date: 4/4/2007
Subject: Re: DragonQuest Review
Group: DQ-RULES Message: 1135 From: Lee Taylor Date: 4/4/2007
Subject: Re: DragonQuest Review
Group: DQ-RULES Message: 1136 From: dbarrass_2000 Date: 4/5/2007
Subject: Re: DragonQuest Review
Group: DQ-RULES Message: 1137 From: Martin Gallo Date: 4/5/2007
Subject: Re: DragonQuest Review
Group: DQ-RULES Message: 1138 From: Lance Dyas Date: 4/5/2007
Subject: Re: DragonQuest Review
Group: DQ-RULES Message: 1139 From: Lev Lafayette Date: 4/5/2007
Subject: Re: DragonQuest Review
Group: DQ-RULES Message: 1140 From: Stephen Mcginn Date: 4/6/2007
Subject: Re: DragonQuest Review
Group: DQ-RULES Message: 1141 From: Ran Hardin Date: 4/6/2007
Subject: Re: DragonQuest Review
Group: DQ-RULES Message: 1142 From: dq-rules@yahoogroups.com Date: 4/6/2007
Subject: New file uploaded to dq-rules
Group: DQ-RULES Message: 1143 From: boris_griebenow Date: 4/6/2007
Subject: RTF version of the DQ rules
Group: DQ-RULES Message: 1144 From: Lev Lafayette Date: 4/6/2007
Subject: Re: DragonQuest Review
Group: DQ-RULES Message: 1145 From: Steven Wiles Date: 4/6/2007
Subject: Re: DragonQuest Review
Group: DQ-RULES Message: 1146 From: Lev Lafayette Date: 4/6/2007
Subject: Re: DragonQuest Review
Group: DQ-RULES Message: 1147 From: Lev Lafayette Date: 4/6/2007
Subject: Re: DragonQuest Review
Group: DQ-RULES Message: 1148 From: Lev Lafayette Date: 4/6/2007
Subject: Re: RTF version of the DQ rules
Group: DQ-RULES Message: 1149 From: dbarrass_2000 Date: 4/7/2007
Subject: Re: DragonQuest Review
Group: DQ-RULES Message: 1150 From: Ran Hardin Date: 4/10/2007
Subject: Re: DragonQuest Review
Group: DQ-RULES Message: 1151 From: Dean Martelle Date: 4/11/2007
Subject: Re: DragonQuest Review
Group: DQ-RULES Message: 1152 From: Dean Martelle Date: 4/11/2007
Subject: Re: DragonQuest Review
Group: DQ-RULES Message: 1153 From: Ran Hardin Date: 4/13/2007
Subject: Re: DragonQuest Review
Group: DQ-RULES Message: 1154 From: Ran Hardin Date: 4/13/2007
Subject: Re: DragonQuest Review
Group: DQ-RULES Message: 1155 From: Jeffery K. McGonagill Date: 4/13/2007
Subject: Re: DragonQuest Review
Group: DQ-RULES Message: 1156 From: Steven Wiles Date: 4/13/2007
Subject: Re: DragonQuest Review
Group: DQ-RULES Message: 1157 From: Rodger Thorm Date: 4/13/2007
Subject: Re: DragonQuest Review



Group: DQ-RULES Message: 1108 From: Lance Dyas Date: 3/13/2007
Subject: Re: DragonQuest Review
Lev Lafayette wrote:
>
>
> --- Lance Dyas <lance@dyasdesigns. com
> <mailto:lance%40dyasdesigns.com>> wrote:
>
> > PIE bonewitz Authentic Thaumateurgy has a
> > probabilistic magic system could actually be
> > adapted rather easily into Dragon Quest
>
> Ah yes, I was going to mention that. Quite influential
> I believe in the descriptive elements of RQs magic, if
> not the system itself.
>
Bonewitz ... well I wouldnt call his game mechanics
elegant... even if their are interesting underlying stuff.

I think RQ predates Bonewitz contributions to gaming...
Group: DQ-RULES Message: 1109 From: Lev Lafayette Date: 3/13/2007
Subject: Re: DragonQuest Review
--- "Jeffery K. McGonagill" <igmod@comcast.net> wrote:

> Again darkislephil, you have written what I was
> thinking.

I have come to expect that.

> In regards to shields, I still use the 1st Edition
> rules on shields. Even
> so, of my current face-to-face group of five
> players, none use shields. In
> fact, the only character that really seems
> interested in physical combat is
> the hyper-active Halfling (AG 26, Artifact of
> Haste). He's hard to hit, but
> when he is, he's paste. That character is the only
> one in the group that
> has died in 24 Adventures (unless you want to count
> the familiar), though
> the rest have all been injured to one degree or
> another.
>
> darkislephil has GM/played DQ for 27 years, I've
> done it for the same time.

Well, I'm only two years behind you on that. I first
picked it up in 1982. Have run the camp of Alla Akabar
at least four times for different people.

The difference is I think it's a good game, not the
greatest game. There are fanatical worshippers of pure
AD&D1e as well.

> I have all three editions, Arcane Wisdom, all
> adventure modules and all
> issues of Ares.

Ditto, and including the Judges Guild modules.

Of course the real question is how many other games do
you own, have played/GMed to make comparisons with?
Because if you can't see the flaws in the system, or
worse still, you'll defend poor mechanics because
they're part of your favourite game, then there won't
be much opportunity to come to a rational decision.



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Group: DQ-RULES Message: 1110 From: Lev Lafayette Date: 3/13/2007
Subject: Re: DragonQuest Review
Indeed, said points (especially the general education
one!) certainly deserve it.

--- "Jeffery K. McGonagill" <igmod@comcast.net> wrote:

> I'm not going to make point by point comments, just
> the simple observation
> that you twist the points darkislephil makes to
> justify your arguement.
>
> ~Jeffery~
>
>
> >> > > I do however have a number of quibbles with
> the
> >> > > review. (And please,
> >> > > please run it through a spell-checker and
> >> grammar
> >> > > checker. There are a
> >> > > number of misspelled words, sentences with
> words
> >> > > missing and/or
> >> > > doubled and some that just don't make sense.)
> >> >
> >> > That's a fair call; I actually do run them
> through
> >> a
> >> > brief check, but when one is trying to write a
> >> review
> >> > a day, sometimes it's less than perfect.
> >>
> >> I guess that provides some insight into the
> review
> >> as a whole then.
> >
> > *shrug* I can admit errors.
> >
> >> > > > Neither the cover art nor the interior art
> was
> >> > > ever
> >> > > > anything special.
> >> > >
> >> > > While John Garcia's illustrations are just
> >> so-so,
> >> > > the 3rd Edition did
> >> > > include several Timothy Truman illustrations
> >> which
> >> > > are very good.
> >> >
> >> > They're not "very good", they are OK at best
> and
> >> there
> >> > certainly isn't enough of them to make a
> >> difference in
> >> > the style rating.
> >>
> >> That's funny. Let's see, staff artist with both
> TSR
> >> & SPI, an
> >> influential comic artist in the early eighties at
> >> the beginning of the
> >> boom for independent comics, has continued to
> write
> >> and illustrate
> >> comics up until now and is currently working on
> the
> >> Dark Horse Conan
> >> comic. Yeah. His art is just ok.
> >
> > Yes, his art is OK and there certainly isn't
> enough
> > images to make a difference in the style rating,
> even
> > if he does have experience in indie comics.
> >
> >> > > > All editions come without a page-numbered
> >> table of
> >> > > contents or an index.
> >> > >
> >> > > Every rule is numbered in the ToC and in the
> >> book.
> >> > > Pretty much no
> >> > > difference from looking it up by page number.
> >> > >
> >> > > An index certainly would have been nice but
> they
> >> > > weren't a common
> >> > > feature in rule sets written in the late 70's
> >> and
> >> > > early 80's before
> >> > > PCs came along.
> >> >
> >> > The AD&D DMG had an index (1979). RuneQuest had
> an
> >> > index (ditto). Indexes are *very* useful in a
> >> > rules-heavy game.
> >>
> >> Right. You come up with 2 examples out of
> hundreds
> >> of possible titles,
> >> one of which is undoubtedly the #1 seller for the
> >> time and the other
> >> probably in the top 5. How many pages did the DMG
> >> have? Twice as many
> >> pages?
> >
> > How many did RQ have? Less than DQ? Yes it did,
> yes it
> > did..
> >
> >> Rules-heavy? Compare the PG, MM and DMG of AD&D
> to
> >> DQ's 148 pages
> >> total.
> >
> > Mere page count does not constitute more rules.
> >
> >> Most peoples complaints are that there aren't
> >> rules for every
> >> conceivable situation and you yourself are
> bemoaning
> >> the lack of an
> >> intelligence characteristic.
> >
> > A systematic perspective is a good orientation.
> >
> >> As I said, an index would have been nice but not
> >> really needed and you
> >> proved the point on how it wasn't common to have
> >> them. If you were
> >> reviewing a current release then I would be
> behind
> >> you 100% but DQ is
> >> nearly 30 years old and a little perspective
> >> concerning the state of
> >> the industry when it was published is
> appropriate.
> >
> > Sorry, I don't do that. I considered giving
> > "historically contextual" reviews and I agree that
> is
> > *one* strategy, but I decided to do use
> comparative
> > standards instead as the referencing would be
> easier.
> >
> >> > > > Note the lack of a general "Intelligence"
> >> stat.
> >> > > > Apparently players provide their own
> >> intelligence
> >> > > and
> >> > > > no NPC can be smarter than the GM.
> >> > >
> >> > > I don't think it was the first game to leave
> out
> >> an
> >> > > Intelligence
> >> > > attribute and it certainly wasn't the last.
> >> Remember
> >> > > the 'RP' in RPG
> >> > > stands for role-playing.
> >> >
> >> > How are you meant to roleplay an NPC's (or a
> PC's)
> >> > intelligence if you don't have a reference
> point?
> >>
> >> The reference point is when you design the NPC
> and
> >> you note that Bob
> >> the Blacksmith is not very educated but is a
> shrewd
> >> bargainer and will
> >> never sell at less than 90% of asking price (and
> >> perhaps you assign
> >> him a Rank in Merchant).
> >
> > Right; so we'll give him an EDU stat like in CoC
> > instead ;-)
> >
> >> An Intelligence stat and a couple die rolls isn't
> >> going to create
> >> meaningful interactions between NPCs and PCs.
> That
> >> is up to the GM.
> >
> > Maybe the same approach should be used for combat
> > resolution as well, eh?
> >
> >> > > In any case many of the skills are
> >> knowledge-based,
> >> > > or have
> >> > > knowledge-based abilities as you noted later
> in
> >> the
> >> > > review and that
> >> > > would fall under the domain of intelligence
> in
> >> most
> >> > > games.
> >> >
> >> > Right; and their default ability is?
> >>
> >> Whose default ability? The skills? As is obvious
> >> from a quick perusal
> >> of the rules, Perception is the characteristic
> >> typically used to
> >> determine if the character knows something or is
> >> able to reason
> >> something out (Astrologer, Merchant, Military
> >> Scientist & Navigator)
> >> but some, like Alchemist & Mechanician, just use
> >> Rank in the skill.
> >
> > Oh so a orang-utung has better reasoning powers
> than
> > the average human because it has a higher
> perception!
> >
> >> So even though there isn't a specific
> Intelligence
> >> characteristic the
> >> rules do provide mechanisms for determining what
> a
> >> PC or NPC knows, or
> >> can reason/intuit for themselves.
> >>
> >> I guess you missed your Perception check when
> >> reading the rules.
> >
> > No, I made the Perception check and recognised a
> flaw
> > in the system whereas you are defending something
> > which is broken.
> >
> >> > > > Characteristic modifiers are significant;
> for
> >> > > example a
> >> > > > halflings PS is reduced by 6.
> >> > >
> >> > > That is only in the 3rd edition. The 1st &
> 2nd
> >> ed
> >> > > modifiers where half
> >> > > those in the 3rd and many DQ players I know
> >> consider
> >> > > that change to be
> >> > > a bad one (as were most of the changes in the
> >> 3rd
> >> > > ed).
> >> >
> >> > See the words "For example"? Personally, I
> >> consider
> >> > the -6 modifier to be a *good* rule.
> >>
> >> In several places in your review you note the
> >> differences between the
> >> different editions but in this case you made an
> >> unqualified statement
> >> that isn't accurate or true for any but the 3rd
> >> edition.
> >
> > Does it matter? I was giving AN EXAMPLE and a
> > *positive* one at that!
> >
> >> When you specifically note that some rules vary
> by
> >> edition but do not
> >> apply this qualification to other statements the
> >> reader can only
> >> assume that you mean it is true for all editions.
> >
> > I think it is quite reasonable not to assume that
> at
> > all. I am *not* going to check every instance in
> every
> > example. Only a fanatic would do such a thing.
> >
> >> > > > An excellent optional rule is the inclusion
> of
> >> > > "aspects",
> >> > >
> >> > > Aspect isn't an optional rule (any more than
> any
> >> > > other rule is).
> >> >
> >> > 7 Aspects (Optional) (3rd ed, p9)
> >>
> >> Once again an unqualified statement that only
> >> applies to the 3rd
> >> edition but you didn't make the distinction.
> >
> > Yeah, well sue me then.
> >
> >> Given that the DQ rules are not available except
> >> through 2nd-hand
> >> markets like eBay or through one of the PDF scans
> of
> >> the 2nd edition
> >> rules floating around the net a little accuracy
> in
> >> your statements
> >> wouldn't have been out of line.
> >
> > The review *was* accurate and indeed comes with
> the
> > caveat that there are differences between the
> > editions.
> >
> >> > > > The combat system assumes the use of hex
> maps,
> >> > > with a
> >> > > > variety of maneuvers, which mostly work
> quite
> >> well
> >> > > and
> >> > > > would probably work better if the monsters
> >> section
> >> > > was
> >> > > > more careful with some of its figures.
> >> > >
> >> > > Meaning what?
> >> >
> >> > Meaning that it scales badly. e.g., two
> >> average-strong
> >> > humans have a even chance of preventing a
> *bear*
> >> from
> >> > breaking from a grapple, and an absolute chance
> of
> >> > preventing a *boar*.
> >>
> >> So you were actually talking about the
> scalability
> >> of the
> >> characteristics of the various creatures (or the
> >> relative accuracy of
> >> the estimation of a creatures attributes) with
> >> regards to one specific
> >> maneuver, Restrain. You can always withdraw from
> >> Close Combat on a
> >> roll of 10 on a D10 unless Restrained.
> >
> > That is one example. The same can be applied to
> any
> > game instance where the poor scaling is used
> (e.g.,
> > characteristic rolls).
> >
> >> > Adding 3-6% at rank 1 certainly is. A untrained
> >> person
> >> > can pick up a shield and they *will* improve
> their
> >> > capacity to be protected by blow *far* more
> than
> >> DQ
> >> > indicates.
> >>
> >> Says you.
> >
> > Who has picked up a shield as an untrained person
> and
> > used it; yes. Who has spoken to others who have
> done
> > the same thing, yes. Where defaults is reflected
> in
> > game systems which have engaged in "reality
> testing",
> > yes it is.
> >
> >> Given that shield is one of the cheapest of
> skills
> >> to advance in,
> >> anyone that runs around with only 1 rank in it
> and
> >> then complains
> >> about the low defense deserves whatever fate
> befalls
> >> them.
> >
> > Irrelevant. It is the default ability I am
> referring
> > to,
> >
> >> > You must acknowledge that 20% negation is
> >> > significantly below average for armour systems
> >> which
> >> > use a damage reduction method, surely?
> >>
> >> Sigh. That isn't 20% negation it is 20% of the
> time
> >> it does total
> >> negation.
> >
> > That is *exactly* what I am referring to. In
> > RuneQuest, Pendragon and GURPS - all of which use
> > damage reduction systems - wearing chain will
> > *totally* negate 50% of blows.
> >
> > In other words the norm for chainmail in DR
> systems is
> > 250% more effective than in DragonQuest.
> >
> > Simply put, I was right and you were wrong.
> >
> >
> >> Well since you have yet to show that it is
> arbitrary
> >> or that it
> >> contradicts "historical examples of those who
> >> studied the occult arts"
> >> (Read as nutjobs that believed magic was real)
> >> clearly you didn't have
> >> any basis for your position.
> >
> > It is arbitrary because there are no reason or
> purpose
> > given for the prohibition. As for the historical
> > examples, several have already been provided.
> >
> >> And the 3rd edition that you are so fond of
> >> referencing includes
> >> justifications and explanations of the colleges
> as
> >> well as their
> >> literary and historical sources.
> >
> > If you're referring to section 49, that still does
> not
> > provide any justification for the college system
> or
> > restrictions on learning more than one college.
> >
> >> You really should read the Introduction.
> >
> > I read it in 1982. The purpose of a critical
> review it
> > is alert GMs to areas where such caveats may
> apply.
> >
> >> After almost 27 years of playing and GMing DQ I
> can
> >> safely say that I
> >> have never had one crippled for weeks at a time.
> >> Inconvenienced and/or
> >> incapacitated for a day or two and even killed
> once
> >> (see #46-50) but
> >> crippled for weeks? No.
> >
> > So you never rolled in the critical results of
> 61-72,
> > 86-100? Good for you.
> >
> >> RPGs are about storytelling not dice rolls.
> >
> > The point being, are the PCs being affected by
> > miscasts more than NPCs? Think about that in your
> > stories.
> >
> >> Because someone with a high-school education
> >> wouldn't be able to come
> >> up with farmer, blacksmith, cobbler, baker, etc.?
> >
> > Quite possibly not. Having a list of likely
> > professions of the late medieval milleiu of DQ is
> both
> > educational and useful.
> >
> >> It is less than 5% of the natural creatures which
> >> make up about 45% of
> >> all the creatures listed. Seeing as sabretooth
> >> tigers, mammoths and
> >> cavemen (Neanderthals) are staples in fantasy
> >> fiction their inclusion
> >> is hardly noteworthy. It was an odd comment to
> make
> >> and you have only
> >> dug yourself in deeper attempting to justify it.
> >
> > There are 26 land mammals listed; 3 is a
> significant
> > number. Again, I was actually referring to this a
> > positive feature, but hey, if you think 4/5 for
> > substance is a negative review, then I guess
> that's
> > too bad.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
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> >
>
>
>




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Group: DQ-RULES Message: 1111 From: J. K. Hoffman Date: 3/14/2007
Subject: Re: DragonQuest Review
This line of argument is why I turned off my other DQ groups and put
this one to digest. While I appreciate the vigor that Mr. Lafayette has
returned to these groups, I would prefer it came with a more level head,
more well-reasoned arguments and not from someone trying to "fix" a
system that other participants don't seem to think is broken. Mostly,
these petty squabbles have devolved to play-ground antics.

I hope it feeds whatever need is being left unsatisfied in the chief
instigator's life.
If it all weren't so sad to watch, it'd be funny.

Ciao!
Jim

__________________________________________
>
> 1b. Re: DragonQuest Review
> Posted by: "Lev Lafayette" lev_lafayette@yahoo.com.au lev_lafayette
> Date: Tue Mar 13, 2007 7:04 pm ((PDT))

(Most of nested replies snipped out for brevity)

> Simply put, I was right and you were wrong.

----------
Quote of the day:
"The most merciful thing in the world is the inability of the human mind
to correlate all its contents."
-H.P. Lovecraft
-----
Group: DQ-RULES Message: 1112 From: WAKEFIELD Leigh Date: 3/14/2007
Subject: Re: DragonQuest Review
I must agree with Jim
 
IT'S JUST A GAME
 
Adjust it as you see fit and allow others their own interpretation.
 
 
 
 


From: dq-rules@yahoogroups.com [mailto:dq-rules@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of J. K. Hoffman
Sent: 14 March 2007 11:50
To: dq-rules@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [dq-rules] Re: DragonQuest Review

This line of argument is why I turned off my other DQ groups and put
this one to digest. While I appreciate the vigor that Mr. Lafayette has
returned to these groups, I would prefer it came with a more level head,
more well-reasoned arguments and not from someone trying to "fix" a
system that other participants don't seem to think is broken. Mostly,
these petty squabbles have devolved to play-ground antics.

I hope it feeds whatever need is being left unsatisfied in the chief
instigator's life.
If it all weren't so sad to watch, it'd be funny.

Ciao!
Jim

____________ _________ _________ _________ ___

>
> 1b. Re: DragonQuest Review
> Posted by: "Lev Lafayette"
href="mailto:lev_lafayette%40yahoo.com.au">lev_lafayette@ yahoo.com. au lev_lafayette
> Date: Tue Mar 13, 2007 7:04 pm ((PDT))

(Most of nested replies snipped out for brevity)

> Simply put, I was right and
you were wrong.

----------
Quote of the day:
"The most merciful thing in the world is the inability of the human mind
to correlate all its contents."
-H.P. Lovecraft
-----

Group: DQ-RULES Message: 1113 From: Jeffery K. McGonagill Date: 3/14/2007
Subject: Re: DragonQuest Review
Good point. Thank you.


> This line of argument is why I turned off my other DQ groups and put
> this one to digest. While I appreciate the vigor that Mr. Lafayette has
> returned to these groups, I would prefer it came with a more level head,
> more well-reasoned arguments and not from someone trying to "fix" a
> system that other participants don't seem to think is broken. Mostly,
> these petty squabbles have devolved to play-ground antics.
>
> I hope it feeds whatever need is being left unsatisfied in the chief
> instigator's life.
> If it all weren't so sad to watch, it'd be funny.
>
> Ciao!
> Jim
>
> __________________________________________
>>
>> 1b. Re: DragonQuest Review
>> Posted by: "Lev Lafayette" lev_lafayette@yahoo.com.au lev_lafayette
>> Date: Tue Mar 13, 2007 7:04 pm ((PDT))
>
> (Most of nested replies snipped out for brevity)
>
>> Simply put, I was right and you were wrong.
>
> ----------
> Quote of the day:
> "The most merciful thing in the world is the inability of the human mind
> to correlate all its contents."
> -H.P. Lovecraft
> -----
>
>
>
> To Post a message, send it to: dq-rules@eGroups.com
> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: dq-rules-unsubscribe@eGroups.com
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
Group: DQ-RULES Message: 1114 From: John Corey Date: 3/14/2007
Subject: Re: DragonQuest Review
I unfortunately agree with you as well.  I have been quiet, and I will stay on the list.  But I can't get motivated to get into this thread. I think I will have to go digest as well.

On Mar 14, 2007, at 7:50 AM, J. K. Hoffman wrote:

This line of argument is why I turned off my other DQ groups and put
this one to digest. While I appreciate the vigor that Mr. Lafayette has
returned to these groups, I would prefer it came with a more level head,
more well-reasoned arguments and not from someone trying to "fix" a
system that other participants don't seem to think is broken. Mostly,
these petty squabbles have devolved to play-ground antics.

I hope it feeds whatever need is being left unsatisfied in the chief
instigator's life.
If it all weren't so sad to watch, it'd be funny.

Ciao!
Jim

__________________________________________
>
> 1b. Re: DragonQuest Review
> Posted by: "Lev Lafayette" lev_lafayette@yahoo.com.au lev_lafayette
> Date: Tue Mar 13, 2007 7:04 pm ((PDT))

(Most of nested replies snipped out for brevity)

> Simply put, I was right and you were wrong.

----------
Quote of the day:
"The most merciful thing in the world is the inability of the human mind
to correlate all its contents."
-H.P. Lovecraft
-----


Group: DQ-RULES Message: 1115 From: Kong Xian Mu Date: 3/14/2007
Subject: Re: DragonQuest Review
I actually think that Lev made some good points in the review. His
most salient was...

"...if you can't see the flaws in the system, or
worse still, you'll defend poor mechanics because
they're part of your favourite game, then there won't
be much opportunity to come to a rational decision."

Only on a rabid fansite would a review of 4/5 for Substance merit such
a pedantic defense of a game two+ decades old.

DQ is great. It could be better.
Group: DQ-RULES Message: 1116 From: zheb_54 Date: 3/14/2007
Subject: Re: DragonQuest Review
I have to agree on this point. DQ is an old favourite system, but
there are areas that could have been more complete. 80% is a very
good mark and if we are fair, I doubt that much rates a better one.

I do disagree with Mr. Lafayette about the design of the magic system.
The restriction on multiple colleges gives a special flavour to
magic, and it flows from viewing magecraft as a scholar's passion.
There is a college for generalists: E&E. The rest of the colleges
specialize in an area of interest the way academics pursue one
particular subject. Sure, your English professor may have a
proficiency with everything ever published, but don't ask him to
design and build a race car-- go to an Automotive Engineer for that.
Even within the faculty of English, you'll see that one fellow always
teaches Chaucer, one always teaches Shakespeare, one always teaches
Wordsworth and the Romantics and so on.

Of course, YMMV, and the opinion expressed is just opinion.


Zheb_54

--- In dq-rules@yahoogroups.com, "Kong Xian Mu" <mean_liar@...> wrote:
>
> I actually think that Lev made some good points in the review. His
> most salient was...
>
> "...if you can't see the flaws in the system, or
> worse still, you'll defend poor mechanics because
> they're part of your favourite game, then there won't
> be much opportunity to come to a rational decision."
>
> Only on a rabid fansite would a review of 4/5 for Substance merit such
> a pedantic defense of a game two+ decades old.
>
> DQ is great. It could be better.
>
Group: DQ-RULES Message: 1117 From: darkislephil Date: 3/14/2007
Subject: Re: DragonQuest Review
--- In dq-rules@yahoogroups.com, "Kong Xian Mu" <mean_liar@...> wrote:
>
> I actually think that Lev made some good points in the review. His
> most salient was...
>
> "...if you can't see the flaws in the system, or
> worse still, you'll defend poor mechanics because
> they're part of your favourite game, then there won't
> be much opportunity to come to a rational decision."

Heh. His most salient point was to create a false dichotomy in defense
of his statements? Gee, I gave him more credit than that.

Lev made several good observations about the game in his review. He
also made several factual errors and had many statements that lacked
clarity.

> Only on a rabid fansite would a review of 4/5 for Substance merit such
> a pedantic defense of a game two+ decades old.

What does the Substance score have to do with the quality and accuracy
of the review?
Group: DQ-RULES Message: 1118 From: darkislephil Date: 3/14/2007
Subject: Re: Shields
It is kind of funny that in going from 1st Ed to 2nd Ed they actually
made the shield rules more complicated while the rest of combat was
simplified.

I'm not a big fan of having shields directly absorb damage versus
providing a defense mod but I thought it worked well enough in the 1st
Ed combat system.

In our campaigns we have always given the defense bonus for every rank
with the shield not just Rank x Def Bonus. So Rank 4 with Small Round
is 15% not 12%.

In the recent sessions I have been running the players all tend to use
shields quite a bit but at other times not so much. Sometimes it is
all about agility and evading while other times it's tanks going
toe-to-toe.

Myself I rarely use shields on my own characters unless it is a
main-gauche as having a close-in weapon prepared all the time can be
good thing.

--- In dq-rules@yahoogroups.com, "Jeffery K. McGonagill" <igmod@...>
wrote:

> In regards to shields, I still use the 1st Edition rules on shields.
Even
> so, of my current face-to-face group of five players, none use
shields. In
> fact, the only character that really seems interested in physical
combat is
> the hyper-active Halfling (AG 26, Artifact of Haste). He's hard to
hit, but
> when he is, he's paste. That character is the only one in the group
that
> has died in 24 Adventures (unless you want to count the familiar),
though
> the rest have all been injured to one degree or another.
Group: DQ-RULES Message: 1119 From: Lev Lafayette Date: 3/14/2007
Subject: Re: DragonQuest Review
Well, I have to say it would be a lot easier if there
was simply a review, people went "Oh OK, maybe this
part should be have been clarified further" or maybe
"I have a different taste to you in spell
organisation" and left it at that.

I mean really, I was actually giving DQ a good rap,
and given the heat generated over the AD&D1e reviews
I've done (which I gave another honest opinion - it's
pretty crap these days) you would think people would
be appreciative.

I guess there's fundamentalists in all "religions"...

All the best,


Lev

--- "J. K. Hoffman" <ryumaou@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

> This line of argument is why I turned off my other
> DQ groups and put
> this one to digest. While I appreciate the vigor
> that Mr. Lafayette has
> returned to these groups, I would prefer it came
> with a more level head,
> more well-reasoned arguments and not from someone
> trying to "fix" a
> system that other participants don't seem to think
> is broken. Mostly,
> these petty squabbles have devolved to play-ground
> antics.
>
> I hope it feeds whatever need is being left
> unsatisfied in the chief
> instigator's life.
> If it all weren't so sad to watch, it'd be funny.
>
> Ciao!
> Jim
>
> __________________________________________
> >
> > 1b. Re: DragonQuest Review
> > Posted by: "Lev Lafayette"
> lev_lafayette@yahoo.com.au lev_lafayette
> > Date: Tue Mar 13, 2007 7:04 pm ((PDT))
>
> (Most of nested replies snipped out for brevity)
>
> > Simply put, I was right and you were wrong.
>
> ----------
> Quote of the day:
> "The most merciful thing in the world is the
> inability of the human mind
> to correlate all its contents."
> -H.P. Lovecraft
> -----
>




____________________________________________________________________________________
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Group: DQ-RULES Message: 1120 From: Mandos Mitchinson Date: 3/14/2007
Subject: Re: Shields
> In the recent sessions I have been running the players all tend to use
> shields quite a bit but at other times not so much. Sometimes it is
> all about agility and evading while other times it's tanks going
> toe-to-toe.

In our campaign most people have shields except the pur fighters. Defence is
king and either low agility or no shield is going to get you into trouble in
any kind of fight. This may also be tied to the fact that in such a long
running campaign there are more high level defence spells out there so the
NPC's tend to be meaner as well.

Mandos
/s
Group: DQ-RULES Message: 1121 From: darkislephil Date: 3/14/2007
Subject: Re: Shields
--- In dq-rules@yahoogroups.com, "Mandos Mitchinson" <mandos@...> wrote:
>
> any kind of fight. This may also be tied to the fact that
> in such a long running campaign there are more high level
> defence spells out there so the NPC's tend to be meaner
> as well.

Get an adept or two in the party concentrating on the defensive side
of things and it doesn't even take a very long campaign to work up
some seriously good defense (and offense).

Shadow Form is very cheap and General Knowledge. The Shapers Enchant
Armor is better though more expensive but still easily advanced.
Given that one is cast on the person and the other on the armor the
stacking effect is pretty darn impressive.

In the end though a lucky grievous by an ogre and it is good night Irene.

And those pesky NPCs are always improving right along with the PCs.
Group: DQ-RULES Message: 1122 From: Mandos Mitchinson Date: 3/15/2007
Subject: Re: Shields
> Shadow Form is very cheap and General Knowledge. The Shapers Enchant
> Armor is better though more expensive but still easily advanced.
> Given that one is cast on the person and the other on the armor the
> stacking effect is pretty darn impressive.

We have rules against such things. Only 1 defence spell at a time. Otherwise
characters were getting defences that meant they could not be hit at all, by
anything. I know of at least one character that had a defence of over 230.
Thanks to a few items, good shield, high agility etc.

> In the end though a lucky grievous by an ogre and it is good night Irene.

Most Grevious Injuries can be lived through and one or two members of a 6-7
man team being down is no major worry. Between Water Mage potions, Mind
Mages (with empathy) and other healing potions characters are actually
surprisingly hard to kill in out campaign.

> And those pesky NPCs are always improving right along with the PCs.

:-)

Mandos
/s
Group: DQ-RULES Message: 1123 From: darkislephil Date: 3/15/2007
Subject: Re: Shields
My campaign is considerably more deadly and for the most part the only
magic items are invested items. Combat items with permanent
enchantments are few and far between.

I believe we have lost 3 PCs in the last 2 years. One from friendly
fire. "Oh. Your unconscious body was under the dire wolf I put the web
of flame on? My bad."


--- In dq-rules@yahoogroups.com, "Mandos Mitchinson" <mandos@...> wrote:
>
> > Shadow Form is very cheap and General Knowledge. The Shapers Enchant
> > Armor is better though more expensive but still easily advanced.
> > Given that one is cast on the person and the other on the armor the
> > stacking effect is pretty darn impressive.
>
> We have rules against such things. Only 1 defence spell at a time.
Otherwise
> characters were getting defences that meant they could not be hit at
all, by
> anything. I know of at least one character that had a defence of
over 230.
> Thanks to a few items, good shield, high agility etc.
>
> > In the end though a lucky grievous by an ogre and it is good night
Irene.
>
> Most Grevious Injuries can be lived through and one or two members
of a 6-7
> man team being down is no major worry. Between Water Mage potions, Mind
> Mages (with empathy) and other healing potions characters are actually
> surprisingly hard to kill in out campaign.
>
> > And those pesky NPCs are always improving right along with the PCs.
>
> :-)
>
> Mandos
> /s
>
Group: DQ-RULES Message: 1124 From: Edi Date: 3/19/2007
Subject: DragonQuest Armaments
Hello all!

Since the recent events on both he dq-rules and DQN-list groups managed
to prod me back to the dusty archive folders where I've got my DQ files,
I figured I might as well finish one of my long-neglected projects. More
than three years ago (Has it really been that damned long already?!?!) I
undertook to compile a comprehensive list of weapons and armor from all
three editions of DQ, the Poor Brendan's Almanac and a couple of other
sources I'd run across. That project progressed some, then went back to
sleep, was revived and finally at one point I managed to get a friend of
mine with extensive knowledge of historical weapons to do a quick review
to check that I wasn't talking out of my arse on some sections. So I
dusted that file off, made the finishing touches, corrections and final
last minute additions such as the Introduction to it and converted the
whole damn thing to a PDF.

So, Edi proudly presents:
DQ Armaments : Weapons, Armor & Shields supplement, uploaded to both
dq-rules and DQN-list. Hence the crosspost.

I hope you enjoy it. I would very much welcome feedback.

Best regards,
Edi
Group: DQ-RULES Message: 1125 From: dq-rules@yahoogroups.com Date: 3/19/2007
Subject: New file uploaded to dq-rules
Hello,

This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the dq-rules
group.

File : /DQ_Armaments.pdf
Uploaded by : esko_halttunen <edirr@welho.com>
Description : Comprehensive list of weapons & armor from all editions of DQ

You can access this file at the URL:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dq-rules/files/DQ_Armaments.pdf

To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit:
http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/groups/files

Regards,

esko_halttunen <edirr@welho.com>
Group: DQ-RULES Message: 1126 From: dq-rules@yahoogroups.com Date: 3/20/2007
Subject: New file uploaded to dq-rules
Hello,

This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the dq-rules
group.

File : /DQ_NewAspects.pdf
Uploaded by : esko_halttunen <edirr@welho.com>
Description :

You can access this file at the URL:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dq-rules/files/DQ_NewAspects.pdf

To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit:
http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/groups/files

Regards,

esko_halttunen <edirr@welho.com>
Group: DQ-RULES Message: 1127 From: Edi Date: 3/20/2007
Subject: Aspects Revisited
So, I'm going to pester everyone again with the optional new Aspects I
created so long ago. I did a complete rewrite of the original 3-page
document of those so that it too looks like a proper DQ supplement. PDF
(DQ_NewAspects.pdf) uploaded to the group.

Take a look-see and tell me what you think. Remember, the lot of it is
optional. I hope you enjoy it.

Edi
Group: DQ-RULES Message: 1128 From: Steven Wiles Date: 3/23/2007
Subject: Alchemy rules
Whew, been a while since I posted here, and heaven
knows the thread I'm responding to was a while back.
But, better late than never, I suppose. Glad to see
some solid traffic again and some new files being
posted. :)

A while back, someone asked a question about
modifications and updates to the Alchemy skill, which
was always a bit sketchy. Roger Thorm responded that
when he played in a campaign with my group online, we
had some modifications that he found interesting. He
wondered if I was still on the list (heh, I am,
although mostly lurking on a lot of lists these days)
and could explain what our modification were. Well,
here goes...

My group used an old old gaming supplement called the
Compleat Alchemist, originally published by Bard Games
in 1983. God knows where Omaq managed to dredge up a
copy. Hunh.... I just did a google search and it
looks like the thing can still be purchased at various
stores, amazingly enough. Wizards of the Coast
currently owns the rights and published a second
edition of it in '93 (which means I can't legally post
my scanned copy of it in our vault, of course *sigh*
seems like a familiar quandry). Omaq was adapting
from the 1st edition.

The notes on the first page indicated that the authors
had written it by doing a lot of research on actual
alchemical theory and practice in history. One of the
things introduced in the book was, as Roger mentioned,
the Alchemical Script, a specialized language and
system of symbols the alchemists used to encode and
record their work. In our game group, we adopted it
as a necessary Language skill for alchemists, i.e. you
couldn't have higher rank in Alchemy than your current
Ranks in Alchemical Script. The idea was pretty neat,
and had a nice game flavor to it.

It was originally written for an AD&D/d20 style
system, introducing the Alchemist as a playable class
with 12 character levels explicated. What made it so
useful for DQ was that each level represented the
ability to create a new class of alchemical wonders.
Two of the levels, Devices and Constructs, were almost
ideally suited for adoption into the Mechanician
skill, and the remaining 10 almost perfectly lined up
for the 10 ranks of Alchemy skill. As an overview,
I'll list the basic type of creation learned at each
rank:
1. Elixirs (very low-level short duration
potions, mostly enhancement or healing effects)
2. Toxic Powders (very low-level offensive
dusts, used in vials or blowguns)


It gave fairly comprehensive lists of herbs & gems and
their magical properties, which lined up nicely with
similar work featured in the Arcane Wisdom supplement.
It also gave some good guidelines for building and
maintaining an alchemical lab.

My group actually didn't get too much of a chance to
play test our adaptions. Unfortunately, we stopped
playing regularly as a group not long after (we all
graduated from university). However, what little
testing we did do seem to work pretty well, and house
rules suggested themselves fairly naturally.

Mind you, it was a project that was going to need to
be fairly significantly. A lot of the adaptions
suggested themselves





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Group: DQ-RULES Message: 1129 From: Steven Wiles Date: 3/23/2007
Subject: Alchemy rules
Well, I think my blasted computer sent a half-written
email out on me, so if you got the previous version of
this and are wondering why it looks half-written, now
you know. Also, my apologies....

Whew, been a while since I posted here, and heaven
knows the thread I'm responding to was a while back.
But, better late than never, I suppose. Glad to see
some solid traffic again and some new files being
posted. :)

A few weeks ago, someone (sorry, forgot who) asked a
question about modifications and updates to the
Alchemy skill, which was always a bit sketchy. Roger
Thorm responded that when he played in an online
campaign with my group, we had some modifications that
he found interesting. He wondered if I was still on
the list (heh, I am, although mostly lurking on a lot
of lists these days) and could explain what our
modification were. Well, here goes...

My group used an old old gaming supplement called the
Compleat Alchemist, originally published by Bard Games
in 1983. God knows where Omaq managed to dredge up a
copy. Hunh.... I just did a google search and it
looks like the thing can still be purchased at various
stores, amazingly enough. Wizards of the Coast
currently owns the rights and published a second
edition of it in '93 (which means I can't legally post
my scanned copy of it in our vault, of course *sigh*
seems like a familiar quandry). Omaq was adapting
from the 1st edition.

The notes on the first page indicated that the authors
had written it by doing a lot of research on actual
alchemical theory and practice in history. One of the
things introduced in the book was, as Roger mentioned,
the Alchemical Script, a specialized language and
system of symbols the alchemists used to encode and
record their work. In our game group, we adopted it
as a necessary Language skill for alchemists, i.e. you
couldn't have higher rank in Alchemy than your current
Ranks in Alchemical Script. The idea was pretty neat,
and had a nice game flavor to it.

It was originally written for an AD&D/d20 style
system, introducing the Alchemist as a playable class
with 12 character levels explicated. What made it so
useful for DQ was that each level represented the
ability to create a new class of alchemical wonders.
Two of the levels, Devices and Constructs, were almost
ideally suited for adoption into the Mechanician
skill, and the remaining 10 almost perfectly lined up
for the 10 ranks of Alchemy skill. As an overview,
I'll list the basic type of creation learned at each
rank:
1. Elixirs (very low-level short duration
potions, mostly enhancement or healing effects)
2. Toxic Powders (very low-level offensive
dusts, used in vials or blowguns)
3. Blade Venoms and Compounds (the former is
pretty self-explanatory, the latter being along of the
line of alchemist's glue, sharpening salves, etc.)
4. Talismans (gem based necklaces with brief
magical effects)
5. Potions
6. Alchemical Dusts (updated Toxic Powders)
7. Solvents (here's where acids and the old
universal solvent shows up)
8. Gases
9. Essences (here's where the ability to create
the philosopher's stone and do transmutations is
introduced, among other things.)
10. Artifical Life (the creation of homonculi,
chimera, etc.)
It gave fairly comprehensive lists of herbs & gems and
their magical properties, which lined up nicely with
similar work featured in the Arcane Wisdom supplement.
It also gave some good guidelines for building and
maintaining an alchemical lab.

My group actually didn't get too much of a chance to
play test our adaptions. Unfortunately, we stopped
playing regularly as a group not long after (we all
graduated from university). It was a project that was
going to take some extended playtesting. A lot of the
adaptions suggested themselves naturally, the
translation from d20 to d100 being pretty obvious.
Other things were too overpowered for the relatively
low-keyed DQ magic system, and were tossed out. Still
other things, it was hard to anticipate how it would
play out and just needed play-tested. However, what
little experience we had with it seemed to go pretty
smoothly. House rules suggested themselves fairly
naturally.

Even if one didn't want to take too direct an adoption
of material from this supplement, I think one would
still find it a rich source of ideas, richer for
having been based on historical alchemical theory. If
you're looking to expand on the Alchemy skill, I think
it could be worth shelling out ten or fifteen bucks to
pick up a copy online.

Hope some of y'all find this useful.

Mort



____________________________________________________________________________________
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Group: DQ-RULES Message: 1130 From: darkislephil Date: 3/24/2007
Subject: Re: Alchemy rules
How funny. I happened to pick up a used copy of the Compleat
Alchemist a week ago. Gonna have to really look over it for ideas now.


--- In dq-rules@yahoogroups.com, Steven Wiles <mortdemuerte@...> wrote:
>
> Well, I think my blasted computer sent a half-written
> email out on me, so if you got the previous version of
> this and are wondering why it looks half-written, now
> you know. Also, my apologies....
>
> Whew, been a while since I posted here, and heaven
> knows the thread I'm responding to was a while back.
> But, better late than never, I suppose. Glad to see
> some solid traffic again and some new files being
> posted. :)
>
> A few weeks ago, someone (sorry, forgot who) asked a
> question about modifications and updates to the
> Alchemy skill, which was always a bit sketchy. Roger
> Thorm responded that when he played in an online
> campaign with my group, we had some modifications that
> he found interesting. He wondered if I was still on
> the list (heh, I am, although mostly lurking on a lot
> of lists these days) and could explain what our
> modification were. Well, here goes...
>
> My group used an old old gaming supplement called the
> Compleat Alchemist, originally published by Bard Games
> in 1983. God knows where Omaq managed to dredge up a
> copy. Hunh.... I just did a google search and it
> looks like the thing can still be purchased at various
> stores, amazingly enough. Wizards of the Coast
> currently owns the rights and published a second
> edition of it in '93 (which means I can't legally post
> my scanned copy of it in our vault, of course *sigh*
> seems like a familiar quandry). Omaq was adapting
> from the 1st edition.
>
> The notes on the first page indicated that the authors
> had written it by doing a lot of research on actual
> alchemical theory and practice in history. One of the
> things introduced in the book was, as Roger mentioned,
> the Alchemical Script, a specialized language and
> system of symbols the alchemists used to encode and
> record their work. In our game group, we adopted it
> as a necessary Language skill for alchemists, i.e. you
> couldn't have higher rank in Alchemy than your current
> Ranks in Alchemical Script. The idea was pretty neat,
> and had a nice game flavor to it.
>
> It was originally written for an AD&D/d20 style
> system, introducing the Alchemist as a playable class
> with 12 character levels explicated. What made it so
> useful for DQ was that each level represented the
> ability to create a new class of alchemical wonders.
> Two of the levels, Devices and Constructs, were almost
> ideally suited for adoption into the Mechanician
> skill, and the remaining 10 almost perfectly lined up
> for the 10 ranks of Alchemy skill. As an overview,
> I'll list the basic type of creation learned at each
> rank:
> 1. Elixirs (very low-level short duration
> potions, mostly enhancement or healing effects)
> 2. Toxic Powders (very low-level offensive
> dusts, used in vials or blowguns)
> 3. Blade Venoms and Compounds (the former is
> pretty self-explanatory, the latter being along of the
> line of alchemist's glue, sharpening salves, etc.)
> 4. Talismans (gem based necklaces with brief
> magical effects)
> 5. Potions
> 6. Alchemical Dusts (updated Toxic Powders)
> 7. Solvents (here's where acids and the old
> universal solvent shows up)
> 8. Gases
> 9. Essences (here's where the ability to create
> the philosopher's stone and do transmutations is
> introduced, among other things.)
> 10. Artifical Life (the creation of homonculi,
> chimera, etc.)
> It gave fairly comprehensive lists of herbs & gems and
> their magical properties, which lined up nicely with
> similar work featured in the Arcane Wisdom supplement.
> It also gave some good guidelines for building and
> maintaining an alchemical lab.
>
> My group actually didn't get too much of a chance to
> play test our adaptions. Unfortunately, we stopped
> playing regularly as a group not long after (we all
> graduated from university). It was a project that was
> going to take some extended playtesting. A lot of the
> adaptions suggested themselves naturally, the
> translation from d20 to d100 being pretty obvious.
> Other things were too overpowered for the relatively
> low-keyed DQ magic system, and were tossed out. Still
> other things, it was hard to anticipate how it would
> play out and just needed play-tested. However, what
> little experience we had with it seemed to go pretty
> smoothly. House rules suggested themselves fairly
> naturally.
>
> Even if one didn't want to take too direct an adoption
> of material from this supplement, I think one would
> still find it a rich source of ideas, richer for
> having been based on historical alchemical theory. If
> you're looking to expand on the Alchemy skill, I think
> it could be worth shelling out ten or fifteen bucks to
> pick up a copy online.
>
> Hope some of y'all find this useful.
>
> Mort
>
>
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________________
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Group: DQ-RULES Message: 1131 From: Lance Dyas Date: 3/24/2007
Subject: Re: Alchemy rules
Somehow I suspect a different game would be my choice for playing
a game featuring Alchemy... as it would be based on
Full Metal Alchemist very cool show (Needs modern stuff anyway )

darkislephil wrote:
>
> How funny. I happened to pick up a used copy of the Compleat
> Alchemist a week ago. Gonna have to really look over it for ideas now.
>
> --- In dq-rules@yahoogroup s.com <mailto:dq-rules%40yahoogroups.com>,
> Steven Wiles <mortdemuerte@ ...> wrote:
> >
> > Well, I think my blasted computer sent a half-written
> > email out on me, so if you got the previous version of
> > this and are wondering why it looks half-written, now
> > you know. Also, my apologies... .
> >
> > Whew, been a while since I posted here, and heaven
> > knows the thread I'm responding to was a while back.
> > But, better late than never, I suppose. Glad to see
> > some solid traffic again and some new files being
> > posted. :)
> >
> > A few weeks ago, someone (sorry, forgot who) asked a
> > question about modifications and updates to the
> > Alchemy skill, which was always a bit sketchy. Roger
> > Thorm responded that when he played in an online
> > campaign with my group, we had some modifications that
> > he found interesting. He wondered if I was still on
> > the list (heh, I am, although mostly lurking on a lot
> > of lists these days) and could explain what our
> > modification were. Well, here goes...
> >
> > My group used an old old gaming supplement called the
> > Compleat Alchemist, originally published by Bard Games
> > in 1983. God knows where Omaq managed to dredge up a
> > copy. Hunh.... I just did a google search and it
> > looks like the thing can still be purchased at various
> > stores, amazingly enough. Wizards of the Coast
> > currently owns the rights and published a second
> > edition of it in '93 (which means I can't legally post
> > my scanned copy of it in our vault, of course *sigh*
> > seems like a familiar quandry). Omaq was adapting
> > from the 1st edition.
> >
> > The notes on the first page indicated that the authors
> > had written it by doing a lot of research on actual
> > alchemical theory and practice in history. One of the
> > things introduced in the book was, as Roger mentioned,
> > the Alchemical Script, a specialized language and
> > system of symbols the alchemists used to encode and
> > record their work. In our game group, we adopted it
> > as a necessary Language skill for alchemists, i.e. you
> > couldn't have higher rank in Alchemy than your current
> > Ranks in Alchemical Script. The idea was pretty neat,
> > and had a nice game flavor to it.
> >
> > It was originally written for an AD&D/d20 style
> > system, introducing the Alchemist as a playable class
> > with 12 character levels explicated. What made it so
> > useful for DQ was that each level represented the
> > ability to create a new class of alchemical wonders.
> > Two of the levels, Devices and Constructs, were almost
> > ideally suited for adoption into the Mechanician
> > skill, and the remaining 10 almost perfectly lined up
> > for the 10 ranks of Alchemy skill. As an overview,
> > I'll list the basic type of creation learned at each
> > rank:
> > 1. Elixirs (very low-level short duration
> > potions, mostly enhancement or healing effects)
> > 2. Toxic Powders (very low-level offensive
> > dusts, used in vials or blowguns)
> > 3. Blade Venoms and Compounds (the former is
> > pretty self-explanatory, the latter being along of the
> > line of alchemist's glue, sharpening salves, etc.)
> > 4. Talismans (gem based necklaces with brief
> > magical effects)
> > 5. Potions
> > 6. Alchemical Dusts (updated Toxic Powders)
> > 7. Solvents (here's where acids and the old
> > universal solvent shows up)
> > 8. Gases
> > 9. Essences (here's where the ability to create
> > the philosopher' s stone and do transmutations is
> > introduced, among other things.)
> > 10. Artifical Life (the creation of homonculi,
> > chimera, etc.)
> > It gave fairly comprehensive lists of herbs & gems and
> > their magical properties, which lined up nicely with
> > similar work featured in the Arcane Wisdom supplement.
> > It also gave some good guidelines for building and
> > maintaining an alchemical lab.
> >
> > My group actually didn't get too much of a chance to
> > play test our adaptions. Unfortunately, we stopped
> > playing regularly as a group not long after (we all
> > graduated from university). It was a project that was
> > going to take some extended playtesting. A lot of the
> > adaptions suggested themselves naturally, the
> > translation from d20 to d100 being pretty obvious.
> > Other things were too overpowered for the relatively
> > low-keyed DQ magic system, and were tossed out. Still
> > other things, it was hard to anticipate how it would
> > play out and just needed play-tested. However, what
> > little experience we had with it seemed to go pretty
> > smoothly. House rules suggested themselves fairly
> > naturally.
> >
> > Even if one didn't want to take too direct an adoption
> > of material from this supplement, I think one would
> > still find it a rich source of ideas, richer for
> > having been based on historical alchemical theory. If
> > you're looking to expand on the Alchemy skill, I think
> > it could be worth shelling out ten or fifteen bucks to
> > pick up a copy online.
> >
> > Hope some of y'all find this useful.
> >
> > Mort
> >
> >
>
Group: DQ-RULES Message: 1132 From: Ran Hardin Date: 4/4/2007
Subject: Re: DragonQuest Review
--- In dq-rules@yahoogroups.com, Lev Lafayette <lev_lafayette@...>
wrote:
> >
> > > Magic is learned in colleges, with exclusive
> > knowledge -
> > > one cannot know spells from the College of Fire
> > Magics and
> > > Earth Magics at the same time which to say the
> > least is a
> > > little unreasonable and arbitrary.
> >
> > Unreasonable because in the real world anyone can
> > throw spells from
> > any college?
>
> I don't accept the argument that a magic system can be
> arbitrary in its rules on the lack of direct
> simulationism. For starters, it doesn't match the
> historical examples of those who studied the occult
> arts and secondly, and much more importantly, it
> simply isn't fun to play.

I would like to put forth the notion that since DQ is a fantasy role-
playing game, historical considerations seem a poor frame for a
critique of its magic system. Fantasy literature, the genre of
which the game is a simulation, would be more appropriate. The
overall construction of the system seems heavily based on Ursula K.
LeGuinn's Earthsea books (the general idea of magic colleges, Namers
and naming, the existence of precise analogs of spells from the
books, etc.), just as the old D&D rules are a mishmash of Jack Vance
and The Compleat Enchanter stories (among other things). As far as
being fun goes? YMMV, I guess, but I never had a player who said "I
don't like playing an adept. It's no fun." There's enough
variation in the colleges that a player playing an adept can pick
one she likes and be happy with it.
Group: DQ-RULES Message: 1133 From: Lev Lafayette Date: 4/4/2007
Subject: Re: DragonQuest Review
--- Ran Hardin <dantalion64@excite.com> wrote:

> --- In dq-rules@yahoogroups.com, Lev Lafayette
> <lev_lafayette@...>
> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Magic is learned in colleges, with exclusive
> > > knowledge -
> > > > one cannot know spells from the College of
> Fire
> > > Magics and
> > > > Earth Magics at the same time which to say the
> > > least is a
> > > > little unreasonable and arbitrary.
> > >
> > > Unreasonable because in the real world anyone
> can
> > > throw spells from
> > > any college?
> >
> > I don't accept the argument that a magic system
> can be
> > arbitrary in its rules on the lack of direct
> > simulationism. For starters, it doesn't match the
> > historical examples of those who studied the
> occult
> > arts and secondly, and much more importantly, it
> > simply isn't fun to play.
>
> I would like to put forth the notion that since DQ
> is a fantasy role-
> playing game, historical considerations seem a poor
> frame for a
> critique of its magic system. Fantasy literature,
> the genre of
> which the game is a simulation, would be more
> appropriate.

We discussed this previously in the thread iirc.
Restrictive colleges also don't appear in fantasy
literature either. Wizards may specialise (we all do
to some extent) but it an extremely rare book (or
game!) where a wizard who casts a spell relating to
opening doors, can't effectively learn (let alone
cast) a spell of light.

Regards,


Lev



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Group: DQ-RULES Message: 1134 From: Jeffery K. McGonagill Date: 4/4/2007
Subject: Re: DragonQuest Review
My group uses Minor Magics, Mage Light. This is basically a ball of light
not unlike a torch. They don't need a specific spell of light.

~Jeffery~


> --- Ran Hardin <dantalion64@excite.com> wrote:
>
>> --- In dq-rules@yahoogroups.com, Lev Lafayette
>> <lev_lafayette@...>
>> wrote:
>> > >
>> > > > Magic is learned in colleges, with exclusive
>> > > knowledge -
>> > > > one cannot know spells from the College of
>> Fire
>> > > Magics and
>> > > > Earth Magics at the same time which to say the
>> > > least is a
>> > > > little unreasonable and arbitrary.
>> > >
>> > > Unreasonable because in the real world anyone
>> can
>> > > throw spells from
>> > > any college?
>> >
>> > I don't accept the argument that a magic system
>> can be
>> > arbitrary in its rules on the lack of direct
>> > simulationism. For starters, it doesn't match the
>> > historical examples of those who studied the
>> occult
>> > arts and secondly, and much more importantly, it
>> > simply isn't fun to play.
>>
>> I would like to put forth the notion that since DQ
>> is a fantasy role-
>> playing game, historical considerations seem a poor
>> frame for a
>> critique of its magic system. Fantasy literature,
>> the genre of
>> which the game is a simulation, would be more
>> appropriate.
>
> We discussed this previously in the thread iirc.
> Restrictive colleges also don't appear in fantasy
> literature either. Wizards may specialise (we all do
> to some extent) but it an extremely rare book (or
> game!) where a wizard who casts a spell relating to
> opening doors, can't effectively learn (let alone
> cast) a spell of light.
>
> Regards,
>
>
> Lev
>
>
>
> ____________________________________________________________________________________
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Group: DQ-RULES Message: 1135 From: Lee Taylor Date: 4/4/2007
Subject: Re: DragonQuest Review
I am late to this discussion but surely with spell research anybody can learn spells that operate with effects similar or same to spells seen outside of their specific college?
 
it just takes more time and effort (exp) to reperesent that this is not their primary field and that they might not be getting assistance as they due when being tutored in their own college....
 
Lee

Lev Lafayette <lev_lafayette@yahoo.com.au> wrote:

--- Ran Hardin <dantalion64@ excite.com> wrote:

> --- In dq-rules@yahoogroup s.com, Lev Lafayette
> <lev_lafayette@ ...>
> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Magic is learned in colleges, with exclusive
> > > knowledge -
> > > > one cannot know spells from the College of
> Fire
> > > Magics and
> > > > Earth Magics at the same time which to say the
> > > least is a
> > > > little unreasonable and arbitrary.
> > >
> > > Unreasonable because in the real world anyone
> can
> > > throw spells from
> > > any college?
> >
> > I don't accept the argument that a magic system
> can be
> > arbitrary in its rules on the lack of direct
> > simulationism. For starters, it doesn't match the
> > historical examples of those who studied the
> occult
> > arts and secondly, and much more importantly, it
> > simply isn't fun to play.
>
> I would like to put forth the notion that since DQ
> is a fantasy role-
> playing game, historical considerations seem a poor
> frame for a
> critique of its magic system. Fantasy literature,
> the genre of
> which the game is a simulation, would be more
> appropriate.

We discussed this previously in the thread iirc.
Restrictive colleges also don't appear in fantasy
literature either. Wizards may specialise (we all do
to some extent) but it an extremely rare book (or
game!) where a wizard who casts a spell relating to
opening doors, can't effectively learn (let alone
cast) a spell of light.

Regards,

Lev

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Group: DQ-RULES Message: 1136 From: dbarrass_2000 Date: 4/5/2007
Subject: Re: DragonQuest Review
I presume the idea was that different cultures would have different
ranges/ types of magic available to them. Thus Elemental - classical
Greek/Roman magic system, Entities would only be found in medieval
Europe and so on (I don't claim that these are accurate distributions
just my impressions). Renaissance cultures European/Arabic would have
the greatest range open to them

I have always been of the opinion that a different culture could
combine spells from different colleges to make colleges unique to
their situation. However the Thaum/Elemental/Entity division is
intrinsic to magic and cannot be crossed

David



--- In dq-rules@yahoogroups.com, Lev Lafayette <lev_lafayette@...> wrote:
>
>
> --- Ran Hardin <dantalion64@...> wrote:
>
> > --- In dq-rules@yahoogroups.com, Lev Lafayette
> > <lev_lafayette@>
> > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Magic is learned in colleges, with exclusive
> > > > knowledge -
> > > > > one cannot know spells from the College of
> > Fire
> > > > Magics and
> > > > > Earth Magics at the same time which to say the
> > > > least is a
> > > > > little unreasonable and arbitrary.
> > > >
> > > > Unreasonable because in the real world anyone
> > can
> > > > throw spells from
> > > > any college?
> > >
> > > I don't accept the argument that a magic system
> > can be
> > > arbitrary in its rules on the lack of direct
> > > simulationism. For starters, it doesn't match the
> > > historical examples of those who studied the
> > occult
> > > arts and secondly, and much more importantly, it
> > > simply isn't fun to play.
> >
> > I would like to put forth the notion that since DQ
> > is a fantasy role-
> > playing game, historical considerations seem a poor
> > frame for a
> > critique of its magic system. Fantasy literature,
> > the genre of
> > which the game is a simulation, would be more
> > appropriate.
>
> We discussed this previously in the thread iirc.
> Restrictive colleges also don't appear in fantasy
> literature either. Wizards may specialise (we all do
> to some extent) but it an extremely rare book (or
> game!) where a wizard who casts a spell relating to
> opening doors, can't effectively learn (let alone
> cast) a spell of light.
>
> Regards,
>
>
> Lev
>
>
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________________
> It's here! Your new message!
> Get new email alerts with the free Yahoo! Toolbar.
> http://tools.search.yahoo.com/toolbar/features/mail/
>
Group: DQ-RULES Message: 1137 From: Martin Gallo Date: 4/5/2007
Subject: Re: DragonQuest Review
I always thought of the different colleges of magic as being similar
to guilds, something that exists with great rampancy in most RPGs. I
once designed a scenario around a local feud between two colleges
(fire and water, naturally) that I never got to run because I had to
work during the convention I planned to run it at. I encouraged
friendly competition between players of different colleges, etc.

Marty
Group: DQ-RULES Message: 1138 From: Lance Dyas Date: 4/5/2007
Subject: Re: DragonQuest Review
The colleges gave magic style in a world where the main rpg magic was bland
there was really no way of playing a pyromancer in D&D or RuneQuest
let alone a namer or summoner. Compared to most of the games around
this was a break through having all those colleges was so that mages werent
clones.. and for me they represented the base things your mage would
know and
would be easiest to learn... not a hard fast limit. Also initially
knowing more than
2 to 4 magical effects made the magic far more versatile than even
those game systems
who's mages ended up with more spells.

More style more versatility.. the biggest problem always seemed to be
how truly
an apprentice you were fumbling your magic all over the place with such
pitiful
percentages it didnt matter that much that you were versatile.... though
being able
to fail was kind of cool too.;-)

Martin Gallo wrote:
>
> I always thought of the different colleges of magic as being similar
> to guilds, something that exists with great rampancy in most RPGs. I
> once designed a scenario around a local feud between two colleges
> (fire and water, naturally) that I never got to run because I had to
> work during the convention I planned to run it at. I encouraged
> friendly competition between players of different colleges, etc.
>
> Marty
>
Group: DQ-RULES Message: 1139 From: Lev Lafayette Date: 4/5/2007
Subject: Re: DragonQuest Review
--- Lance Dyas <lance@dyasdesigns.com> wrote:

> The colleges gave magic style in a world where the
> main rpg magic was bland
> there was really no way of playing a pyromancer in
> D&D or RuneQuest
> let alone a namer or summoner.

Not entirely true in RQs case; after mastering the
basic magic common across cults one one specialised in
rune magic. If that runic affiliation included 'fire'
you would have your fire mage...

All the best,


Lev



____________________________________________________________________________________
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Group: DQ-RULES Message: 1140 From: Stephen Mcginn Date: 4/6/2007
Subject: Re: DragonQuest Review
The Magic system for DQ is far superior to that of AD&D, in fact dare i say,
all aspects are far superior, DQ allows a flexibilty that cannot be matched
with the D&D system, having played both games for 26 years now. Its like
comparing a Fiat Punto to an Aston Martin.. there is no comparison.

Stephen (London)


>From: Martin Gallo <martimer@mindspring.com>
>Reply-To: dq-rules@yahoogroups.com
>To: dq-rules@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: Re: [dq-rules] Re: DragonQuest Review
>Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2007 18:58:14 -0500
>
>I always thought of the different colleges of magic as being similar
>to guilds, something that exists with great rampancy in most RPGs. I
>once designed a scenario around a local feud between two colleges
>(fire and water, naturally) that I never got to run because I had to
>work during the convention I planned to run it at. I encouraged
>friendly competition between players of different colleges, etc.
>
>Marty

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Group: DQ-RULES Message: 1141 From: Ran Hardin Date: 4/6/2007
Subject: Re: DragonQuest Review

Hmm... I posted a reply to this, but it didn't "take."  Apologies if it shows up some day.

--- In dq-rules@yahoogroups.com, Lev Lafayette <lev_lafayette@...> wrote:

> We discussed this previously in the thread iirc.
> Restrictive colleges also don't appear in fantasy
> literature either.


I disagree, although I'll have to go through my library for examples to back up my opinion.  Off the top of my head, I'd say one example would be the Deryni: they're pretty clearly adepts of the College of Sorceries of the Mind (so much so that I'd be surprised if that wasn't one source of inspiration for the college).  Has anyone read A Wizard of Earthsea lately? (Another obvious source for DQ magic.) Seems like those colleges were restrictive as well.

Group: DQ-RULES Message: 1142 From: dq-rules@yahoogroups.com Date: 4/6/2007
Subject: New file uploaded to dq-rules
Hello,

This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the dq-rules
group.

File : /documents/DQrulesrtf.zip
Uploaded by : boris_griebenow <bgriebenow@t-online.de>
Description : RTF - Version of the DQ Rules

You can access this file at the URL:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dq-rules/files/documents/DQrulesrtf.zip

To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit:
http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/groups/files

Regards,

boris_griebenow <bgriebenow@t-online.de>
Group: DQ-RULES Message: 1143 From: boris_griebenow Date: 4/6/2007
Subject: RTF version of the DQ rules
I have created a RTF version of the revised rulebook. This one works
fine with Open Office. I have also corrected some minor layout
mistakes in the monsters section and the descriptions of the demons.
Group: DQ-RULES Message: 1144 From: Lev Lafayette Date: 4/6/2007
Subject: Re: DragonQuest Review
--- Ran Hardin <dantalion64@excite.com> wrote:

>
> Hmm... I posted a reply to this, but it didn't
> "take."
> Apologies if it shows up some day.

We have it now, so all's well...

> > We discussed this previously in the thread iirc.
> > Restrictive colleges also don't appear in fantasy
> > literature either.
>
>
> I disagree, although I'll have to go through my
> library for examples
> to back up my opinion. Off the top of my head, I'd
> say one example
> would be the Deryni: they're pretty clearly adepts
> of the College of
> Sorceries of the Mind (so much so that I'd be
> surprised if that
> wasn't one source of inspiration for the college).

The Deryni have a number of innate psychic abilities
which are later fine-tuned as they get holder (i.e.,
the power is determined by birth, the ability by
training)

However, powerful Deryni also master a variety of
spells on elemental manipulation, illusions, summoning
etc.

The question is whether they are not specialised into
single colleges. I am not familiar with the series,
but I'm sure you'll know if anyone shows any
indication of casting spells from multiple colleges in
DQ terms.

> Has anyone read
> A Wizard of Earthsea lately? (Another obvious source
> for DQ magic.)
> Seems like those colleges were restrictive as well.

As a trivial counter, the Master Hand, for example,
trains Ged in both Illusions and Summoning - this is,
of course, in addition to Naming.

"He smiled, but Ged left dissatisfied. Press a mage
for his secrets and he would always talk, like Ogion,
about balance, and danger, and the dark. But surely a
wizard, one who had gone past these childish tricks of
illusion to the true arts of Summoning and Change, was
powerful enough to do what he pleased, and balance the
world as seemed best to him, and drive back darkness
with his own light."

All the best,



Lev



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Group: DQ-RULES Message: 1145 From: Steven Wiles Date: 4/6/2007
Subject: Re: DragonQuest Review
I agree with Lance and Ran. In D&D type systems,
where there's only one style of magic, what I have
always seen happen is a near complete homogenization
of wizards. Everyone knows exactly the same spells,
everyone memorizes exactly the same spells, everyone
casts exactly the same spells. Hell, even when they
memorize "different spells", its really just
variations on the same damn spells. There's a minor
tip-of-the-hat towards specialization, but all it
meant in AD&D was a "necromancer" had memorized one
extra necromancy spell. Once combat started, guess
what spells he's casting at your party: fireball,
chain lightning, finger of death, magic missile, etc.
Exactly the same spells you're tossing at his minions.
Oh, maybe he made some zombies in there somewhere
too. But, know what, your wizard probably could have
too, if he'd wanted. Yawn.

I do, however, agree with the statement that there are
few (if any) references in literature to "colleges" of
magic. Usually, each set of stories has one idea of
what magic is and can do, and all mages in the stories
are drawing from the same source of power, as it were.
I think that misses the point, though. If you think
about all the -different- book series you've read,
every single one had a different kind of magic from
the others. It all depended on the author's
particular vision of what magic was. So, considered
as a genre, fantasy literature probably contains
hundreds of different "colleges". It was that aspect
of "magic" that the DQ designers were, in my opinion,
deliberately addressing.

Would you like to play a Merlin-esque wizard? Here,
we have the College of Enchantments and
Ensorcellments. Would you like to play a cackling hag
consorting with dark powers? Here, the College of
Black Magics. Have you read the Deryni series by
Katherine Kurtz and would like to play one? Here, the
College of Mind Magics. Etcetera.

In the Arcane Wisdom supplement's development notes,
they explicitly state that each of the colleges
presented was based on a different literary source.
To answer Ran's query, yes, the designers explicitly
state that Mind Magics is based on the Deryni series,
Naming Incantations on Earthsea, etc. Hell, fire
magics, earth magics, and to some extent necromancy
were meant to be nods to Gandalf, Rhadagast, and
Saruman from LotR respectively. Once I read that, the
whole colleges idea crystallized for me. They were
trying to capture the -flavor- of each different
series or myth or whatever with each college.

Now, as to the question of limiting the versatility of
player mages? Somewhat, yes, but more no. Certainly
no college was meant to be able to do -everything-,
hence justifying the existence of many colleges. It
was probably the reason every party I ever played in
had more than one wizard, each of a different college.
But I always felt the system was, in spite of this,
more versatile than a system where you "memorize"
spells for a day (leading to the same list every day
anyway and the homogenization problem). You didn't
have to be a psychic to know which spells you would
need, whatever you knew, you could in principal use
when needed. They replaced the long-term uncertainty
of "What spells might I need today?" with the short
term uncertainty of "Will the spell I need work right
now!?". It felt like a good trade-off to me, ymmv,
although being an apprentice mage is pretty painful...

Coming back to that versatility issue... what the
system as published lacked was the ability to expand
and modify magic, create new spells or even new
colleges. Of course, that lack was supposed to be
addressed with the Arcane Wisdom supplement, but we
all know what happened before that got published.
Thanks goodness we, as a community, got our hands on
the unpublished material.

My own fire mage character was developing spells for
teleportation through fire and other little ideas
towards the end of his career, expanding on the
potential of the college. About the only restriction
my GM imposed on fire spell research was "no healing
spells", which I agreed would ruin the flavor of the
college. When you include the potential for spell
development, I think issues of constraint, while not
vanishing, certain thin out a lot.

I will admit that "colleges" are a pretty radical idea
for fantasy RPGs, and you don't see it very often to
the extent DQ presented it. I think there is a
tendency among people who play wizards to want to be
damned near omnipotent. However, my own experience
suggests that versatility in terms of being able to
know every spell in a system doesn't work out that
well. The truth is, the 200(?) spells in AD&D 3rd
edition aren't liberating so much as they are
paralyzing and overwhelming, never mind the hundreds
subsequently. I felt DQ encouraged focus on what you
had and -clever- use of it.

Admittdly, it's nothing more than personal preference.
I just can't agree with the bald statement that
colleges are "limiting". It's too naive.

Mort

Hm. I see the danger of only posting to this list
once every few months. Once I get started writing, I
can't shut up...

--- Lance Dyas <lance@dyasdesigns.com> wrote:

> The colleges gave magic style in a world where the
> main rpg magic was bland




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Group: DQ-RULES Message: 1146 From: Lev Lafayette Date: 4/6/2007
Subject: Re: DragonQuest Review
IMO in some ways (A)D&D is more flexible. The DQ
system of exclusive colleges is a little like
specialised mages in AD&D2e except *all* other spells
are prohibited, rather than the ones from the opposite
college. So in that issue AD&D is more flexible.

On others it certainly isn't; such as the DQ ability
to learn spells regardless of one's "level" and, as a
related issue, the treatment of spells as skills which
a percentage chance to cast, rather than an a yes/no
form of knowledge.

Also DQ is much more flexible in the way spells can be
cast, that is, by a pool of fatigue points rather than
the AD&D "implanted in the brain" method. Of course,
it strikes me that spells only costing 1-2 fatigue can
be a little weird, but that's another issue entirely.

So in *most* cases DQ is a more flexible spell system
than AD&D - but not in *all* cases.

YMMV etc


Lev

--- Stephen Mcginn <stemcginn35@hotmail.com> wrote:

> The Magic system for DQ is far superior to that of
> AD&D, in fact dare i say,
> all aspects are far superior, DQ allows a flexibilty
> that cannot be matched
> with the D&D system, having played both games for 26
> years now. Its like
> comparing a Fiat Punto to an Aston Martin.. there is
> no comparison.
>
> Stephen (London)
>
>
> >From: Martin Gallo <martimer@mindspring.com>
> >Reply-To: dq-rules@yahoogroups.com
> >To: dq-rules@yahoogroups.com
> >Subject: Re: [dq-rules] Re: DragonQuest Review
> >Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2007 18:58:14 -0500
> >
> >I always thought of the different colleges of magic
> as being similar
> >to guilds, something that exists with great
> rampancy in most RPGs. I
> >once designed a scenario around a local feud
> between two colleges
> >(fire and water, naturally) that I never got to run
> because I had to
> >work during the convention I planned to run it at.
> I encouraged
> >friendly competition between players of different
> colleges, etc.
> >
> >Marty
>
>
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Group: DQ-RULES Message: 1147 From: Lev Lafayette Date: 4/6/2007
Subject: Re: DragonQuest Review
--- Steven Wiles <mortdemuerte@yahoo.com> wrote:

> I agree with Lance and Ran. In D&D type systems,
> where there's only one style of magic, what I have
> always seen happen is a near complete homogenization
> of wizards. Everyone knows exactly the same spells,
> everyone memorizes exactly the same spells, everyone
> casts exactly the same spells.

YMMV, but this certainly hasn't been my experience in
play. True there are some favourites, but that's
invariably because of "gamist" issues (i.e., some
spells are more powerful than their level indicates,
therefore they become more popular).

> Hell, even when they
> memorize "different spells", its really just
> variations on the same damn spells. There's a minor
> tip-of-the-hat towards specialization, but all it
> meant in AD&D was a "necromancer" had memorized one
> extra necromancy spell.

... per spell level.

Regards,


Lev



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Group: DQ-RULES Message: 1148 From: Lev Lafayette Date: 4/6/2007
Subject: Re: RTF version of the DQ rules
--- boris_griebenow <bgriebenow@t-online.de> wrote:

> I have created a RTF version of the revised
> rulebook. This one works
> fine with Open Office. I have also corrected some
> minor layout
> mistakes in the monsters section and the
> descriptions of the demons.
>

Hi Boris,

Given that it's now the ISO standard for publications
would you consider using OpenDocumentFormat as the
default rather than RTF etc.

Also I note that the long-standing errors concerning
the PS of a rat and the capacity of a weasel's bite
remain unchanged.

All the best,


Lev



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Group: DQ-RULES Message: 1149 From: dbarrass_2000 Date: 4/7/2007
Subject: Re: DragonQuest Review
--- In dq-rules@yahoogroups.com, Lev Lafayette <lev_lafayette@...> wrote:

>
> "He smiled, but Ged left dissatisfied. Press a mage
> for his secrets and he would always talk, like Ogion,
> about balance, and danger, and the dark. But surely a
> wizard, one who had gone past these childish tricks of
> illusion to the true arts of Summoning and Change, was
> powerful enough to do what he pleased, and balance the
> world as seemed best to him, and drive back darkness
> with his own light."
>
> All the best,
>
This is interesting, this could be modelled by allowing an adept more
than one college. I'm reluctant to allow this easily, but it could be
done.

Eric Goldberg addressed this in the Thieves World supplement Briefly:-
to gain an additional college 5000eps & 6 months of training, 7500eps
and 1 year of study if there is a change of branch of magic.
Not all the colleges in a magic branch can be learnt, some are
mutually exclusive (fire/water, Illusions/Naming) and an adept can
learn all but one of a branch.
A purification ritual has to be done to use magic of a different
college or -25 to cast chance (-50 if switching branch)

I think this is a start, but I'd add an additional permanent sacrifice
of MA points and reduce the EP cost to 1000EPs
1 MA point lost to gain a college within a branch
2 MA if gaining a college in a neutral branch
3 MA points if any one of the colleges already known is in an opposed
branch to the one to be learnt
I'd also say that a ritual is needed to open the correct pathways, the
MA point(s) are lost even if the ritual fails.
The switch can only be done at hero level remembering that an adept
"may only know a number of spells and rituals of Rank 5 or lower equal
to his Magical Aptitude", as he will gain lots of spells at rank 0 and
his MA has gone down he may have problems

I hope this will make it sufficiently difficult to all but the best,
but allow a good EP sink and objective for them, and increase the
flexibility of your NPCs

David
Group: DQ-RULES Message: 1150 From: Ran Hardin Date: 4/10/2007
Subject: Re: DragonQuest Review
--- In dq-rules@yahoogroups.com, Lev Lafayette <lev_lafayette@...>
wrote:
>
> The Deryni have a number of innate psychic abilities
> which are later fine-tuned as they get holder (i.e.,
> the power is determined by birth, the ability by
> training)

Sounds like general knowledge vs. special knowledge spells.

>
> However, powerful Deryni also master a variety of
> spells on elemental manipulation, illusions, summoning
> etc.

I admit I'm relying largely on my memory of the first three books,
where the abilities seemed fairly homogeneous. The "evil" Deryni
could almost be considered to be of another college.

Here's an idea for a more structured house rule for a player who
wants to acquire spells outside his college:

An adept is still primarily "dedicated" to one college—that is, he
learns all the general knowledge spells for that college, and is
still considered a fire mage or a dark mage, etc. He is then
allowed a certain number of spells from the general knowledge sets
of other colleges. I would likely prevent "cross-college" adepts
from learning the special knowledge of other colleges, leaving those
for the Truly Dedicated adepts. That way, players who crave some
extra-college abilities for their characters can pick up the odd
spell or two, but they'll never have the advanced level of
understanding of that college's magic as a true adept of that
college would.
Group: DQ-RULES Message: 1151 From: Dean Martelle Date: 4/11/2007
Subject: Re: DragonQuest Review
Hi,
You are dead on the money. Deryni and Earthsea were
both mentioned by the designers as inspriations for
Sorcereries of Mind and Naming Incnatations
respectively. In addition the Celestials came out of
Thieves World (and got put back in later). Greater
Summoning came from a book on Demonology that Jim
Dunnigan found at an occult bookstore in NYC. Most of
the others are from traditional sources. The only
college that was made up whole cloth was Illusion.
--Dean M.
--- Ran Hardin <dantalion64@excite.com> wrote:

>
> Hmm... I posted a reply to this, but it didn't
> "take."
> Apologies if it shows up some day.
>
> --- In dq-rules@yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:dq-rules@yahoogroups.com> , Lev
> Lafayette <lev_lafayette@...> wrote:
>
> > We discussed this previously in the thread iirc.
> > Restrictive colleges also don't appear in fantasy
> > literature either.
>
>
> I disagree, although I'll have to go through my
> library for examples
> to back up my opinion. Off the top of my head, I'd
> say one example
> would be the Deryni: they're pretty clearly adepts
> of the College of
> Sorceries of the Mind (so much so that I'd be
> surprised if that
> wasn't one source of inspiration for the college).
> Has anyone read
> A Wizard of Earthsea lately? (Another obvious source
> for DQ magic.)
> Seems like those colleges were restrictive as well.
>
>




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Group: DQ-RULES Message: 1152 From: Dean Martelle Date: 4/11/2007
Subject: Re: DragonQuest Review
This is a system that I used for DQ. You could learn
the general knowledge of another college but you
treated it like special knowledge for casting. The
problem was getting the mage of the other college to
teach you the spell. It usually involved trading
spells. There were also other restrictions. One of
which was that in all of my DQ games it was illegal to
be a Black Magician and casting Black magic spells
attracted a lot of bad attention. The other is that
some colleges just would not deal with members of
others. Fire and Water for example. Enchantment and
Entity mages did not get along well either. I did not
find this rule unbalancing or overpowering in play.
--Dean

--- Ran Hardin <dantalion64@excite.com> wrote:

> --- In dq-rules@yahoogroups.com, Lev Lafayette
> <lev_lafayette@...>
> wrote:
> >
> > The Deryni have a number of innate psychic
> abilities
> > which are later fine-tuned as they get holder
> (i.e.,
> > the power is determined by birth, the ability by
> > training)
>
> Sounds like general knowledge vs. special knowledge
> spells.
>
> >
> > However, powerful Deryni also master a variety of
> > spells on elemental manipulation, illusions,
> summoning
> > etc.
>
> I admit I'm relying largely on my memory of the
> first three books,
> where the abilities seemed fairly homogeneous. The
> "evil" Deryni
> could almost be considered to be of another college.
>
> Here's an idea for a more structured house rule for
> a player who
> wants to acquire spells outside his college:
>
> An adept is still primarily "dedicated" to one
> college—that is, he
> learns all the general knowledge spells for that
> college, and is
> still considered a fire mage or a dark mage, etc.
> He is then
> allowed a certain number of spells from the general
> knowledge sets
> of other colleges. I would likely prevent
> "cross-college" adepts
> from learning the special knowledge of other
> colleges, leaving those
> for the Truly Dedicated adepts. That way, players
> who crave some
> extra-college abilities for their characters can
> pick up the odd
> spell or two, but they'll never have the advanced
> level of
> understanding of that college's magic as a true
> adept of that
> college would.
>
>
>
>



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Group: DQ-RULES Message: 1153 From: Ran Hardin Date: 4/13/2007
Subject: Re: DragonQuest Review
I wonder if Greater Summmoning wasn't based on The Keys of Solomon.
There are some differences between the descriptions there and what's
in DQ, but overall it's a pretty close match.


--- In dq-rules@yahoogroups.com, Dean Martelle <gallants2@...> wrote:
>
> Hi,
> You are dead on the money. Deryni and Earthsea were
> both mentioned by the designers as inspriations for
> Sorcereries of Mind and Naming Incnatations
> respectively. In addition the Celestials came out of
> Thieves World (and got put back in later). Greater
> Summoning came from a book on Demonology that Jim
> Dunnigan found at an occult bookstore in NYC. Most of
> the others are from traditional sources. The only
> college that was made up whole cloth was Illusion.
> --Dean M.
> --- Ran Hardin <dantalion64@...> wrote:
>
> >
> > Hmm... I posted a reply to this, but it didn't
> > "take."
> > Apologies if it shows up some day.
> >
> > --- In dq-rules@yahoogroups.com
> > <mailto:dq-rules@yahoogroups.com> , Lev
> > Lafayette <lev_lafayette@> wrote:
> >
> > > We discussed this previously in the thread iirc.
> > > Restrictive colleges also don't appear in fantasy
> > > literature either.
> >
> >
> > I disagree, although I'll have to go through my
> > library for examples
> > to back up my opinion. Off the top of my head, I'd
> > say one example
> > would be the Deryni: they're pretty clearly adepts
> > of the College of
> > Sorceries of the Mind (so much so that I'd be
> > surprised if that
> > wasn't one source of inspiration for the college).
> > Has anyone read
> > A Wizard of Earthsea lately? (Another obvious source
> > for DQ magic.)
> > Seems like those colleges were restrictive as well.
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
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Group: DQ-RULES Message: 1154 From: Ran Hardin Date: 4/13/2007
Subject: Re: DragonQuest Review
Thanks, that's good to know.



--- In dq-rules@yahoogroups.com, Dean Martelle <gallants2@...> wrote:
>
> This is a system that I used for DQ. You could learn
> the general knowledge of another college but you
> treated it like special knowledge for casting. The
> problem was getting the mage of the other college to
> teach you the spell. It usually involved trading
> spells. There were also other restrictions. One of
> which was that in all of my DQ games it was illegal to
> be a Black Magician and casting Black magic spells
> attracted a lot of bad attention. The other is that
> some colleges just would not deal with members of
> others. Fire and Water for example. Enchantment and
> Entity mages did not get along well either. I did not
> find this rule unbalancing or overpowering in play.
> --Dean
>
> --- Ran Hardin <dantalion64@...> wrote:
>
> > --- In dq-rules@yahoogroups.com, Lev Lafayette
> > <lev_lafayette@>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > The Deryni have a number of innate psychic
> > abilities
> > > which are later fine-tuned as they get holder
> > (i.e.,
> > > the power is determined by birth, the ability by
> > > training)
> >
> > Sounds like general knowledge vs. special knowledge
> > spells.
> >
> > >
> > > However, powerful Deryni also master a variety of
> > > spells on elemental manipulation, illusions,
> > summoning
> > > etc.
> >
> > I admit I'm relying largely on my memory of the
> > first three books,
> > where the abilities seemed fairly homogeneous. The
> > "evil" Deryni
> > could almost be considered to be of another college.
> >
> > Here's an idea for a more structured house rule for
> > a player who
> > wants to acquire spells outside his college:
> >
> > An adept is still primarily "dedicated" to one
> > college—that is, he
> > learns all the general knowledge spells for that
> > college, and is
> > still considered a fire mage or a dark mage, etc.
> > He is then
> > allowed a certain number of spells from the general
> > knowledge sets
> > of other colleges. I would likely prevent
> > "cross-college" adepts
> > from learning the special knowledge of other
> > colleges, leaving those
> > for the Truly Dedicated adepts. That way, players
> > who crave some
> > extra-college abilities for their characters can
> > pick up the odd
> > spell or two, but they'll never have the advanced
> > level of
> > understanding of that college's magic as a true
> > adept of that
> > college would.
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
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Group: DQ-RULES Message: 1155 From: Jeffery K. McGonagill Date: 4/13/2007
Subject: Re: DragonQuest Review
In my campaign, Greater Summoning is illegal and Black Magics practioners
are registered and monitored.

~Jeffery~


> This is a system that I used for DQ. You could learn
> the general knowledge of another college but you
> treated it like special knowledge for casting. The
> problem was getting the mage of the other college to
> teach you the spell. It usually involved trading
> spells. There were also other restrictions. One of
> which was that in all of my DQ games it was illegal to
> be a Black Magician and casting Black magic spells
> attracted a lot of bad attention. The other is that
> some colleges just would not deal with members of
> others. Fire and Water for example. Enchantment and
> Entity mages did not get along well either. I did not
> find this rule unbalancing or overpowering in play.
> --Dean
>
> --- Ran Hardin <dantalion64@excite.com> wrote:
>
>> --- In dq-rules@yahoogroups.com, Lev Lafayette
>> <lev_lafayette@...>
>> wrote:
>> >
>> > The Deryni have a number of innate psychic
>> abilities
>> > which are later fine-tuned as they get holder
>> (i.e.,
>> > the power is determined by birth, the ability by
>> > training)
>>
>> Sounds like general knowledge vs. special knowledge
>> spells.
>>
>> >
>> > However, powerful Deryni also master a variety of
>> > spells on elemental manipulation, illusions,
>> summoning
>> > etc.
>>
>> I admit I'm relying largely on my memory of the
>> first three books,
>> where the abilities seemed fairly homogeneous. The
>> "evil" Deryni
>> could almost be considered to be of another college.
>>
>> Here's an idea for a more structured house rule for
>> a player who
>> wants to acquire spells outside his college:
>>
>> An adept is still primarily "dedicated" to one
>> college-that is, he
>> learns all the general knowledge spells for that
>> college, and is
>> still considered a fire mage or a dark mage, etc.
>> He is then
>> allowed a certain number of spells from the general
>> knowledge sets
>> of other colleges. I would likely prevent
>> "cross-college" adepts
>> from learning the special knowledge of other
>> colleges, leaving those
>> for the Truly Dedicated adepts. That way, players
>> who crave some
>> extra-college abilities for their characters can
>> pick up the odd
>> spell or two, but they'll never have the advanced
>> level of
>> understanding of that college's magic as a true
>> adept of that
>> college would.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
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Group: DQ-RULES Message: 1156 From: Steven Wiles Date: 4/13/2007
Subject: Re: DragonQuest Review
Without looking at the designer's notes in the ArcWis
for confirmation, yes, it is. When Dean says that the
designers got their hands on a book of Demonology, it
was almost certainly either a copy of or a treatise
about the Lesser Key of Solomon, and possibly also the
Greater Key. They're both fascinating reading, and
clear influences on the description of Greater
Summoning in DQ.

Here's a translation of the Greater Key done back in
the 19th century:

http://www.esotericarchives.com/solomon/ksol.htm

And here's one of the Lesser Key:

http://www.sacred-texts.com/grim/lks/index.htm

Check out the "Classified List of the 72 Chief Spirits
" on this one... :>

Mort

--- Ran Hardin <dantalion64@excite.com> wrote:

> I wonder if Greater Summmoning wasn't based on The
> Keys of Solomon.
> There are some differences between the descriptions
> there and what's
> in DQ, but overall it's a pretty close match.
>
>
> --- In dq-rules@yahoogroups.com, Dean Martelle
> <gallants2@...> wrote:
> >
> > Hi,
> > You are dead on the money. Deryni and Earthsea
> were
> > both mentioned by the designers as inspriations
> for
> > Sorcereries of Mind and Naming Incnatations
> > respectively. In addition the Celestials came out
> of
> > Thieves World (and got put back in later). Greater
> > Summoning came from a book on Demonology that Jim
> > Dunnigan found at an occult bookstore in NYC. Most
> of
> > the others are from traditional sources. The only
> > college that was made up whole cloth was Illusion.
>
> > --Dean M.
> > --- Ran Hardin <dantalion64@...> wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > Hmm... I posted a reply to this, but it didn't
> > > "take."
> > > Apologies if it shows up some day.
> > >
> > > --- In dq-rules@yahoogroups.com
> > > <mailto:dq-rules@yahoogroups.com> , Lev
> > > Lafayette <lev_lafayette@> wrote:
> > >
> > > > We discussed this previously in the thread
> iirc.
> > > > Restrictive colleges also don't appear in
> fantasy
> > > > literature either.
> > >
> > >
> > > I disagree, although I'll have to go through my
> > > library for examples
> > > to back up my opinion. Off the top of my head,
> I'd
> > > say one example
> > > would be the Deryni: they're pretty clearly
> adepts
> > > of the College of
> > > Sorceries of the Mind (so much so that I'd be
> > > surprised if that
> > > wasn't one source of inspiration for the
> college).
> > > Has anyone read
> > > A Wizard of Earthsea lately? (Another obvious
> source
> > > for DQ magic.)
> > > Seems like those colleges were restrictive as
> well.
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
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> >
>
>
>
>
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Group: DQ-RULES Message: 1157 From: Rodger Thorm Date: 4/13/2007
Subject: Re: DragonQuest Review
Seems to me the 'Lesser Key of Solomon' is mentioned about Summoners,
either in the notes to Arcane Wisdom or in the writeup of Greater
Summoners proper.

Rodger

> I wonder if Greater Summmoning wasn't based on The Keys of Solomon.
> There are some differences between the descriptions there and what's
> in DQ, but overall it's a pretty close match.
>
>
> --- In dq-rules@yahoogroups.com, Dean Martelle <gallants2@...> wrote:
>>
>> Hi,
>> You are dead on the money. Deryni and Earthsea were
>> both mentioned by the designers as inspriations for
>> Sorcereries of Mind and Naming Incnatations
>> respectively. In addition the Celestials came out of
>> Thieves World (and got put back in later). Greater
>> Summoning came from a book on Demonology that Jim
>> Dunnigan found at an occult bookstore in NYC. Most of
>> the others are from traditional sources. The only
>> college that was made up whole cloth was Illusion.
>> --Dean M.
>> --- Ran Hardin <dantalion64@...> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> > Hmm... I posted a reply to this, but it didn't
>> > "take."
>> > Apologies if it shows up some day.
>> >
>> > --- In dq-rules@yahoogroups.com
>> > <mailto:dq-rules@yahoogroups.com> , Lev
>> > Lafayette <lev_lafayette@> wrote:
>> >
>> > > We discussed this previously in the thread iirc.
>> > > Restrictive colleges also don't appear in fantasy
>> > > literature either.
>> >
>> >
>> > I disagree, although I'll have to go through my
>> > library for examples
>> > to back up my opinion. Off the top of my head, I'd
>> > say one example
>> > would be the Deryni: they're pretty clearly adepts
>> > of the College of
>> > Sorceries of the Mind (so much so that I'd be
>> > surprised if that
>> > wasn't one source of inspiration for the college).
>> > Has anyone read
>> > A Wizard of Earthsea lately? (Another obvious source
>> > for DQ magic.)
>> > Seems like those colleges were restrictive as well.
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
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