Just for fun...

> I think the first thing that I absolutely must point out is that
> we may be agreeing and disagreeing at the same time, because
> we're both coming at it from our technical mindsets, with each
> of us having concluded the nature of the premise beforehand, and
> then proceeding from what we considered solid ground. After

I think you have a keen mind and a firm grasp of the situation.

>MG> Research indicates that "when you use the word man generically, people do
>MG> tend to think male, and tend not to think female" (Miller and Swift 21).
>
> Naturally, but the key is: is that so bad? Or even the more rude
> response, "who cares?" :)

Many people do. That whole women's suffrage issue that arose a few
years ago is one example (and slavery, etc.)

>MG> 3 It perpetuates stereotypes. Language influences our thoughts and
>MG> beliefs.
>
> Ok, to be fair, here's where I not so much disagree as just feel
> sad for people in general, and a little superior without intending
> to. People, in general, often prove to be extremely weak, and that
> disturbs me to no end. I'm one of those types that, regardless of
> where I was raised, or the influences around me, would always, in
> most respects, grow into the same person. I'm "me" and always will
> be. I can take influences and pick and choose the elements I wish
> to absorb, or discard them without breaking a sweat. It has taken
> me man long years to figure out that this wasn't a common trait in
> people, so I now, in my old age <chuckle>, try to be more
> understanding of this, but I will never like it. My family was

I think it is because you are tall, and therefore oblivious to the
biases the rest of us have to fight against daily. ;-)

>MG> Find two lefties, one taught how to write by a left handed teacher
>MG> and the other taught to write by a right handed teacher. Sit with
>MG> them and discuss their experiences.
>
> That would be rather interesting. My own experience had no outer
> influences. As an ambi, I, for whatever reason, found myself
> assigning a hand to different tasks as I went along. It was

Similar to the 'tall' problem, you were oblivious to the problems the
lefties face. ;-)

> do not believe you will ever see a neuter pronoun that will be
> considered valid, and even if one were created and enforced, you'd
> have a riot on your hands if you tried to re-publish classic works
> with the words changed to reflect it. Correcting problems is fine,

I agree that there will probably not be a solution in what is left of
my lifetime. I agree that the first person who suggests rewriting the
literature to include the new pronoun should be, ahem, neutered. With
a bat.

> whereas Native American conflicts with logic. If a black guy was
> born in Utah, he's a native American, so it's kind of silly to
> imply otherwise (which is why I hate the term African American,
> too. If you were born here, dammit, you're an American. If you

Time to break out one of my stupid stories. I applied for college in
1979. A few months later, after getting accepted to a college, I got
a call from somebody from the BIA offering me scholarships, tutoring
and probably a car (with insurance and gas money!!). I kept asking
questions like 'why would you offer me such things' and she kept
responding with statements like 'we do this for all people in your
position'. It confused me because NONE of my friends had received
offers like this. It took a few minutes and rounds of question,
offers and answers before it clicked - BIA = Bureau of Indian Affairs
and that I had inadvertently checked the 'Native American' box on the
ancestry section of my application (I was in a hurry to fill out the
application. I was born in America after all (I am 3/8 Italian, 3/8
British and 1/4 Scot by heritage - but American by culture). It seems
that VERY few 'indians' make it to college, and fewer still to 'good
schools'. I felt so sorry when I had to break the news about the
mistake, but we laughed about it for a while.

Marty
--


"If you haven't got your health, at least you have something to talk about."

"They say that everything happens for a reason. I am just tired of
that reason being to make me unhappy or embarrassed."

"You can't make a baby in a month using nine women, but it sounds
like it would be fun to try!"

"Does it ever occur to women that maybe it is their butts that make
their pants look big?"

--- In dq-rules@yahoogroups.com, "J. K. Hoffman" <ryumaou@s...>
wrote:

> Okay, so, lest anything I say prolong this....
> Let me make it clear that I don't really care which way you go on

this.

> It just seemed like a silly, "politically correct" waste of time

to

> me. This "debate" has raged for quite a few years in academic

circles,

> with little impact on how language is actually used, outside of

the

> "politically correct" institutions of higher learning.
>
> Either way, have fun. And, I'd still be willing to help with
> conversions of file formats, places to download (mirrors), or any

other

> technical aspect of the project, short of copy-editing, for

obvious reasons.

>

Copy-editing... That brings up a good point. Once the rules are
compiled, they can always be copy-edited to fit whatever editorial
standard is chosen to avoid gender bias.

-David

I'd like to thank everyone for keeping this civil. There's always a fear of
things going nuclear when you find a whole lot of messages on a topic where
there have been some strong opinions voiced. By and large, the DQ groups have
done extremely well at respecting other people's opinions and keeping the
discussion from getting acrimonious. And once again we've seen the same thing
happening here.

You guys are great -- I love you man! (Or should that be "you people are
great," instead...? ;-)

Quoting David Chappell <kaith_athanes@yahoo.com>:

>
> Copy-editing... That brings up a good point. Once the rules are
> compiled, they can always be copy-edited to fit whatever editorial
> standard is chosen to avoid gender bias.
>
> -David

This is certainly true, and the only reason I brought up the topic in the first
place is that I wanted to set a standard (if we chose to adopt a standard) so
that that step of copy-editing could be minimized.

Same with the indexing question. If we can do more of the work as we go along
with the writing of the text, it will be easier to complete the whole project
later on.

I also brought up this subject with the 20'x20' Room blog folks (a really
interesting blog for intelligent gaming and game design with a good group of
core contributors; take a look if you're interested:
http://www.20by20room.com/2004/05/grammar_and_sty.html) and got a range of
opinions from them.

One suggestion I really like in some respects was, "take a page from the
Heroquest rpg. Robin Laws and Greg Stafford chose a fixed set of players and
characters for all the examples, and used the appropriate pronouns to refer to
each player and character throughout."

We could stick with the use of he/him/his in cases of indefinite pronouns, but
have a set of example player/characters and GM who are all female, so all
examples would naturally use she/her/hers. I'm not sure if I like this better
than the alternating scheme I suggested earlier.

I'm sorry I opened up this whole can of worms in one respect, but I think it's
been a good discussion so far, and I've found the comments useful in helping me
sort out what position I want to take on the whole matter.

I'll get back to rewriting rules soon!

--Rodger

----------------------------------------------------------------
This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program.

Having read the discussion so far, I've something to add. First off, to
me it seems all this talk about which pronoun to use is much ado about
nothing, as the male pronoun is typically used as a generic one.

Second, you guys have no idea just how lucky you are to have a language
with separate pronouns for the sexes in the first place. In Finnish
there is only a single neutral pronoun, "hän", which refers to both men
and women, and it completely fucks up many sorts of sentences that an
English-speaker would write without a second thought.

Consider the following (rather poor and hurriedly thought up) example:
"James met Jack and Helen at the mall. He had long fancied her, but knew
that she was with him, so he'd always kept his feelings to himself."

Now, try and write that with a single gender-neutral pronoun: "James met
Jack and Helen at the mall. Hän had long fancied häntä (objective form),
but knew that hän was with hän, so hän had always kept hänen (his/her)
feelings to hänself."

Not very good, is it? This is the kind of stuff that anybody who has
ever written in Finnish has to deal with every single time. The example
makes perfect sense in English because the pronouns clarify who is being
referred to, precisely because they are gender specific. In Finnish, or
when substituting a neutral pronoun as I just did, the thread of the
example disappears pretty much at the beginning of the second sentence.
Who did James fancy? Without any information on his sexual preferences,
with a neutral pronoun it could be either Jack or Helen (presumably
Helen, given statistical probabilities). If a truly gender neutral
pronoun were to be coined and accepted into use (and if it were to
eventually supplant the gender specific ones), it would lead to a
massive change in the way English is written at level more fundamental
than most of you can grasp, I think.


My own personal opinion is that the attempts to push the use of the
female pronoun for this purpose or (*puke*) alternating the male and
female pronouns is just a misguided trend arising out of oversensitized,
hysteric political correctness which seems to pervade much of American
culture these days. It sometimes seems as if people are actively looking
for something, anything, to be offended at, and many go to ridiculous
lengths to find something trivial to nitpick. Even worse are those who
accommodate such nitpickers. Do remember that this statement is generic,
though, and does not apply to anyone here based on what I've seen in the
past, but I've seen this thrend elsewhere in less distinguished comapny.

That said, I don't take offense at somebody using the female pronoun as
generic, it's just as good for the purpose as the male one, which is the
default only by tradition, and keeping a tradition just for the sake of
keeping a tradition isn't enough justification to say that it is somehow
wrong. I'll personally use the male pronoun for generic expressions
because that's the way I learned it and because it still is the accepted
form, while using 'she' is considered an oddity. I don't see it in being
in any way sexist, but given that I grew up with a language where this
whole problem does not exist in the first place, I have something of a
different perspective on it. Using 'he' for generic expressions is just
like using the Finnish passive form for me.

I'm something of a linguistical purist in some respects, but I realize
that languages change with the passage of time and some things that were
previously "forbidden" may become accepted, and I don't have a problem
with that. It's the stuff like people substituting "possibul" for
"possible" and similar illiterate stupidity that send me through the
roof, not the minor things like whether to use he or she for generic
pronoun. That's not something that can be called butchering the English
language, not by a long shot.

As for the hidden biases mentioned, I agree that some of that exists.
Don't know much about it with regard to left-handed people, as I the
only lefty I know is my sister and I haven't talked about it with her.
Regarding women, some professions are seen as women's stuff largely
because those were basically seen as the only jobs that could be
considered proper for women to do (so far as any jobs were), and those
troglodytic attitudes have taken a long time to disappear. There's still
a long way to go before they are completely eradicated, but it's
happening. Not fast enough for some people while others are content with
this pace, but getting all PC about certain less significant things in
order to compensate for the more important stuff isn't the answer.

And now that I've more or less offended everyone here so far, feel free
to crisp me to a cinder. *dons flame-retardant body armor* ;-)

EDi

[William Dymock] Since people will be writing regional varients of DQ why not use gender specifics based on the premier examplers of whatever rule is being dealt with. If all the top-rated Mind Mages are female (to pick an example entirely non-random) then use the female pronouns. If all the premier weasels and cowards; I mean Enchanters are male (again, entirely not random) then use the male pronoun. Gods, might as well make the indiviual systems look like people had fun writing them.

 

Evil Aucklander emeritus,

William Dymock 

--- In dq-rules@yahoogroups.com, rthorm@c... wrote:

> At the time it was written, it was probably OK for SPI to write

everything

> with masculine pronouns and then say that girls could play, too.

But I'd like

> to be a bit more contemporary and enlightened than that.
>

From what I remember of gaming in the early 80s, DragonQuest was
fairly enlightened. The combat example included a female character
in an active roll, as opposed to just being someone to be rescued.
The artwork included several women in adventurering roles, and none
in exploitive poses. I think that was much more indicative of
authors who considered women equals than making a conscious effort
to alternate pronouns would have been. I have seen sad attempts that
involved very politically correct writing, but all the women in the
art were either tied to sacrificial altars or clad in chainmail
bikinis. The perception this creates is that women are being
patronized. I honestly think that removing the PS, MD, and FT
modifiers for choosing a female character would mean more than
pronoun choice. I'm probably in the minority on this opinion, but I
feel that you should just treat people as equals instead of
pandering to them. Pandering is just discrimination pretending to be
nice.

-David

Hello Esko,


Note to everyone else: if you skipped hän's post, go back and
read it. It's wonderful! And if you didn't get the joke in my
first sentence, I *know* you didn't read it. :)


EH> Second, you guys have no idea just how lucky you are to have a language
EH> with separate pronouns for the sexes in the first place. In Finnish
EH> there is only a single neutral pronoun, "hän", which refers to both men
EH> and women, and it completely fucks up many sorts of sentences that an
EH> English-speaker would write without a second thought.

Have you seen the other end of the spectrum? German. Deutsch has
multiples for each gender, dependant on age, situation, who is
speaking, etc. It's a nightmare.


EH> Consider the following (rather poor and hurriedly thought up) example:

Your illustration is *exactly* what I was referring to earlier.
I've seen attempts at it already with English, and it was just as
baffling and ludicrous.



EH> My own personal opinion is that the attempts to push the use of the
EH> female pronoun for this purpose or (*puke*) alternating the male and
EH> female pronouns is just a misguided trend...

Nah, you can take the leap and admit it's truth, not just opinion.
:)


EH> ...arising out of oversensitized, hysteric political correctness which
EH> seems to pervade much of American culture these days.

Makes ya sick, doesn't it? I have to live amidst it. I'm not an
"American basher," but still, I wish people, especially Americans,
retained the ability to be embarrassed or ashamed when they're
acting like whiny little kids and others call them on it. Sadly,
they don't even realize what they're doing. So many years of
freedom and prosperity (generally speaking) have lead to a sedate,
take-it-for-granted level of comfort and mental laziness (and a
definite belief of holding the cultural and moral high ground),
that I'm not at all surprised, but still extremely frustrated, to
see other nations looking at us with revulsion and/or disdain.
Just don't let all of those types fool you. It started out great,
and it still is a great country, filled with many good, honest,
hard-working people that earn every ounce of that freedom and
prosperity, and who don't act that way. Problem is, due to their
natural common sense and manners, they aren't the ones the rest of
the world sees on camera.


EH> It sometimes seems as if people are actively looking for something,
EH> anything, to be offended at, and many go to ridiculous lengths to
EH> find something trivial to nitpick.

You are absolutely correct, and those groups of imbeciles often
end up being heard as "the voice of America," not because they
truly represent the majority, but merely because they are the ones
doing the loud screaming and doing everything they can to be seen
and heard. It's sickening.


EH> Even worse are those who accommodate such nitpickers.

Bravo!!! Absolutely correct.


EH> That said, I don't take offense at somebody using the female pronoun as
EH> generic, it's just as good for the purpose as the male one, which is the
EH> default only by tradition, and keeping a tradition just for the sake of
EH> keeping a tradition isn't enough justification to say that it is somehow
EH> wrong.

Minor disagreement, here. I'm a purist, and it does offend me. Not
because I have dainty, easily offended sensibilities, but merely
because I see it as just another ploy by the ones mentioned above.
I see it as "them" attempting to destroy a work of art that I
love, and their motives are insane, selfish, and not entirely
sincere. And I wouldn't say it was just tradition. It's the
finished craft, woven by a master, and changing a masterpiece, for
whatever reasons, only diminishes and corrupts it.


EH> I'll personally use the male pronoun for generic expressions because
EH> that's the way I learned it and because it still is the accepted form,
EH> while using 'she' is considered an oddity.

Completely agree.


EH> I'm something of a linguistical purist in some respects, but I realize
EH> that languages change with the passage of time and some things that were
EH> previously "forbidden" may become accepted...

Sadly inevitable, but I don't have to like it.


EH> ...and I don't have a problem with that.

Eek!


EH> It's the stuff like people substituting "possibul" for "possible" and
EH> similar illiterate stupidity that send me through the roof...

99% of the time that just makes me ill, especially when I see a 45
year old black man who's a multi-millionaire rap star doing it
because it's part of his image, and the kids all start copying him
and don't bother to get a real education as a result, because they
think it's cool to talk and write that way, and school isn't cool.
I've seen the fallout of years of this, and the streets are now
filled with absolute morons that never speak an original sentence,
with every word and obligatory hand gesture being something
drilled into them by this disgusting counter-culture.

The remaining 1% that I don't mind is something that I taught
myself a long time ago, and it has a purpose. I'm referring to
typing phonetically where appropriate, for the purpose of infusing
a little personality and a better, more accurate "feel" for the
writer. When I write casual emails, I often "type as I speak" so
that the inflection, tone, and mood can be conveyed. It could go
too far, of course, but I've never allowed myself to do that, and
over the years it's worked well for me and added a distinct flavor
to my "speech" that people can see is distinctive to me. Heck,
I've even had women tell me that "I type sexy" whatever the hell
that means. LOL (Perhaps my little scheme has worked too well!)


EH> ...not the minor things like whether to use he or she for generic
EH> pronoun. That's not something that can be called butchering the English
EH> language, not by a long shot.

When compared to that I do see your point. <Chuckle>


EH> Regarding women, some professions are seen as women's stuff largely
EH> because those were basically seen as the only jobs that could be
EH> considered proper for women to do (so far as any jobs were), and those
EH> troglodytic attitudes have taken a long time to disappear.

Let's also not forget that there were times when vital jobs were
done by men because women literally couldn't do them. They took
sheer brute strength to do, and the women took care of many of the
remaining duties. It wasn't sexist, it was just logic in action.


EH> There's still a long way to go before they are completely eradicated,
EH> but it's happening. Not fast enough for some people while others are
EH> content with this pace...

Call me old fashioned, or even something less dignified, but I'm
one of those people that can see the differences beneath the skin,
and am not upset or ashamed to be one side of a coin, so to speak.
Men and women were made differently, not just physically, but in
their psyches, mindsets, natural aptitudes, etc. We were designed
to compliment each other, not to fight over who gets to do what
task because we feel slighted that it's a given for the other
gender. I watched my mother cook, clean, wash clothes, and
maintain a household on a daily basis, for many years, and let me
tell ya, it wasn't a walk in the park. It was damned hard,
grueling work. But she rolled up her sleeves and did it every day,
without a single complaint, and I was in awe of her determination
and stamina. She wasn't very tall, and I was growing like a
mutated tree, but all those soaked, heavy laundry baskets she
carried out to the line every day gave those little arms enough
strength to beat *me* at arm wrestling any day of the week.
Whether it be man or woman, I respect a person that knows their
strengths *and* limitations, and who isn't insulted that God made
them the way they are for a purpose.

Oh dear Lord, I really *do* want a girl like the girl that married
dear old dad... How cliche.

I need a drink.


EH> ...but getting all PC about certain less significant things in
EH> order to compensate for the more important stuff isn't the answer.

Yeppers.


EH> And now that I've more or less offended everyone here so far, feel free
EH> to crisp me to a cinder. *dons flame-retardant body armor* ;-)

Offended? Are you kidding me? I'm on the verge of proposing...


<Chuckle>



Best regards,

Larry mailto:Kurgan@Fastmail.fm

>EH> Regarding women, some professions are seen as women's stuff largely
>EH> because those were basically seen as the only jobs that could be
>EH> considered proper for women to do (so far as any jobs were), and those
>EH> troglodytic attitudes have taken a long time to disappear.
>
> Let's also not forget that there were times when vital jobs were
> done by men because women literally couldn't do them. They took
> sheer brute strength to do, and the women took care of many of the
> remaining duties. It wasn't sexist, it was just logic in action.

Yeah, and the times when men were not available and so women had to
do the work - oh, wait, wrong topic.
--


"If you haven't got your health, at least you have something to talk about."

"They say that everything happens for a reason. I am just tired of
that reason being to make me unhappy or embarrassed."

"You can't make a baby in a month using nine women, but it sounds
like it would be fun to try!"

"Does it ever occur to women that maybe it is their butts that make
their pants look big?"

Interesting...

>Now, try and write that with a single gender-neutral pronoun: "James met
>Jack and Helen at the mall. Hän had long fancied häntä (objective form),
>but knew that hän was with hän, so hän had always kept hänen (his/her)
>feelings to hänself."

Are you REQUIRED to use the neutral from when
writing in Finnish? My 'solution' would be to
just write the proper male/female pronoun. Of
course it might just be that particular
example....
--


"If you haven't got your health, at least you have something to talk about."

"They say that everything happens for a reason. I
am just tired of that reason being to make me
unhappy or embarrassed."

"You can't make a baby in a month using nine
women, but it sounds like it would be fun to try!"

"Does it ever occur to women that maybe it is
their butts that make their pants look big?"

< I know the feeling, bwana. I live in a small town, and if it
doesn't involve drinking or getting someone pregnant (typically a
combination of the two), wrestling, demolition derby, or beating
the crap out of people for the hell of it, then they just stare
at you stupidly like you fell out of the sky. Books have to be
purchased online, and the only place you can find them is by
peering underneath people's couches to see what's holding them
up. (Small town. Kansas. You get the idea.)

I could've sworn you were describing Ohio.

Steve F.

________________________________________________________________
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Hello--

>Hello Esko,
>
>

Just call me Edi, that's how everyone else does. :-)

> Have you seen the other end of the spectrum? German. Deutsch has
> multiples for each gender, dependant on age, situation, who is
> speaking, etc. It's a nightmare.
>
>

I've studied that language for eight years, so yes, you could say I'm
familiar with it. The personal pronouns are easy enough to master, but
it's all the other grammar stuff, with every single noun having a gender
of male, female or neuter and each of those handling differently that
makes the language so hard. Not that Finnish would be any easier for
you, how about having to know which one of the 14 different forms for
every noun, adjective, pronoun and numeral to pick in every sentence and
context? The joys of not having prepositions, but instead doing it all
with suffixes...

>EH> ...arising out of oversensitized, hysteric political correctness which
>EH> seems to pervade much of American culture these days.
>
> Makes ya sick, doesn't it? I have to live amidst it. I'm not an
> "American basher," but still, I wish people, especially Americans,
> retained the ability to be embarrassed or ashamed when they're
> acting like whiny little kids and others call them on it. Sadly,
> they don't even realize what they're doing. So many years of
> freedom and prosperity (generally speaking) have lead to a sedate,
> take-it-for-granted level of comfort and mental laziness (and a
> definite belief of holding the cultural and moral high ground),
> that I'm not at all surprised, but still extremely frustrated, to
> see other nations looking at us with revulsion and/or disdain.
> Just don't let all of those types fool you. It started out great,
> and it still is a great country, filled with many good, honest,
> hard-working people that earn every ounce of that freedom and
> prosperity, and who don't act that way. Problem is, due to their
> natural common sense and manners, they aren't the ones the rest of
> the world sees on camera.
>
>

Most Americans I know actually more or less share your opinion on this
subject, but then again, those people are all of the well educated
variety who have learned to think for themselves and who aren't afraid
of expressing their opinions and ruffling feathers if need be. The types
you describe at the end there. I've heard enough horror stories and met
enough representatives of the American populace who feature in those
horror stories online to know how you feel. Trying to get through the
kind of wall of often willful ignorance that they put up is enough to
give anyone a brain aneurysm.

>EH> That said, I don't take offense at somebody using the female pronoun as
>EH> generic, it's just as good for the purpose as the male one, which is the
>EH> default only by tradition, and keeping a tradition just for the sake of
>EH> keeping a tradition isn't enough justification to say that it is somehow
>EH> wrong.
>
> Minor disagreement, here. I'm a purist, and it does offend me. Not
> because I have dainty, easily offended sensibilities, but merely
> because I see it as just another ploy by the ones mentioned above.
> I see it as "them" attempting to destroy a work of art that I
> love, and their motives are insane, selfish, and not entirely
> sincere. And I wouldn't say it was just tradition. It's the
> finished craft, woven by a master, and changing a masterpiece, for
> whatever reasons, only diminishes and corrupts it.
>
>

By that reasoning, your language is already corrupt beyond any
redemption (and so is every other language as well). Languages change,
they get new stuff added and some stuff pruned as time goes on. They are
never static, and never complete. Sometimes the change is slow, and
sometimes it happens very fast. Just look at the language and concepts
of scientific and technical English, for an example of fast evolving,
continuously changing subset of language. Core areas are slower to
change, but if and when there is enough pressure, changes will happen.

The effect of English on the Finnish language is a topic of some
controversy here, with many people who call themselves purists like you
do screaming their heads off about Finnish being corrupted and dying
out. Their claim is pure bullshit. Some words from English filter into
Finnish from time to time, but most often they get adapted and
Fennotized and just become part of the vocabulary, and when they don't,
they get a Finnish equivalent coined if the word doesn't already exist.
The language is very much alive and vibrant and definitely not dying
out. Most complaints merely center around the fact that people think
that their personal way of speech is the only correct way and are
offended when everyone else doesn't automagically conform to their
personal standards. The wide consensus among linguists is actually that
there is no problem other than in the minds of laypeople who have no
actual idea of the field of linguistics but who either profess to be
experts in it or demand set-in-stone answers for every single facet of
the issue. I have a quite excellent book on the subject, which was the
exam book for the Helsinki University Department of Translation
Linguistics that dwelt on this very subject, and it was quite an
eye-opener. I decided not to apply after some consideration, though I'm
interested in the field, there are a bit too many complications
involved, mostly arising out of screwed up educational policies here.

>EH> It's the stuff like people substituting "possibul" for "possible" and
>EH> similar illiterate stupidity that send me through the roof...
>
> 99% of the time that just makes me ill, especially when I see a 45
> year old black man who's a multi-millionaire rap star doing it
> because it's part of his image, and the kids all start copying him
> and don't bother to get a real education as a result, because they
> think it's cool to talk and write that way, and school isn't cool.
> I've seen the fallout of years of this, and the streets are now
> filled with absolute morons that never speak an original sentence,
> with every word and obligatory hand gesture being something
> drilled into them by this disgusting counter-culture.
>
>

The kind of kids you describe I can excuse for not knowing any better,
but when you're talking about well educated people who are quite
literate and knowledgeable in a wide variety of things and who are going
to good schools and interested in learning things, and who still
consistently and systematically use this kind of corruptions (the
'possibul' example), that's when it starts to be really grating. This is
what I'm talking about. I'm not even going near the subject of Ebonics
and related fuckwittery, because I know little of it firsthand and have
heard enough about it to not even want to. The most caustic comments in
that kind of discussions inevitably came from black Americans who had to
grow up in the middle of it.

> The remaining 1% that I don't mind is something that I taught
> myself a long time ago, and it has a purpose. I'm referring to
> typing phonetically where appropriate, for the purpose of infusing
> a little personality and a better, more accurate "feel" for the
> writer. When I write casual emails, I often "type as I speak" so
> that the inflection, tone, and mood can be conveyed. It could go
> too far, of course, but I've never allowed myself to do that, and
> over the years it's worked well for me and added a distinct flavor
> to my "speech" that people can see is distinctive to me. Heck,
> I've even had women tell me that "I type sexy" whatever the hell
> that means. LOL (Perhaps my little scheme has worked too well!)
>
>

Difficult for me to visualize how to type phonetically in English,
because spoken and written English are so completely different, unlike
Finnish where there is only one single way to express any given sound in
writing. Obviously spoken and formal written (which is the same as
formal spoken) Finnish are different, but if you write the casually
spoken language, there is only one correct way of doing it. Individual
flavoring to typed text is of course possible, but I tend to see it more
in terms of how a person uses language in the first place. Speech
mannerisms often creep into text even when it's not intentional, and I
recognize several distinctive individual styles even here, and on a
couple of forums I frequent. Haven't seen anyone type quite like me yet,
either, though a few people (not here) come close.

>EH> Regarding women, some professions are seen as women's stuff largely
>EH> because those were basically seen as the only jobs that could be
>EH> considered proper for women to do (so far as any jobs were), and those
>EH> troglodytic attitudes have taken a long time to disappear.
>
> Let's also not forget that there were times when vital jobs were
> done by men because women literally couldn't do them. They took
> sheer brute strength to do, and the women took care of many of the
> remaining duties. It wasn't sexist, it was just logic in action.
>
>

It was pretty one-sided logic then, because women had to do a lot of the
men's jobs when the men weren't available (e.g. they were off fighting a
war or whatever) and did just fine, but normally they wouldn't be
allowed to do them at all (too much prestige in it or other such), while
the men would not stoop to do what they considered women's work unless
there was absolutely no alternative.

>EH> There's still a long way to go before they are completely eradicated,
>EH> but it's happening. Not fast enough for some people while others are
>EH> content with this pace...
>
> Call me old fashioned, or even something less dignified, but I'm
> one of those people that can see the differences beneath the skin,
> and am not upset or ashamed to be one side of a coin, so to speak.
> Men and women were made differently, not just physically, but in
> their psyches, mindsets, natural aptitudes, etc. We were designed
> to compliment each other, not to fight over who gets to do what
> task because we feel slighted that it's a given for the other gender.
>

Generally you are right, but that should not get in the way of judging
people by their capabilities and picking the best person for the job
without regard for gender. I judge people by their merits individually,
not by their gender. More often than not, given equal opportunity, men
and women will do equally well at any given task if their starting
aptitudes are on the same footing. E.g. a mathematically gifted man vs a
mathematically gifted woman for a task requiring that aptitude instead
of a talent mismatch where one has the proper patitude and the other is
e.g. musically gifted but has no head for math at all. There is an
argument to be made for cases like front-line infantry in the military
where physical strength is a big requirement and where women tend to
lack the qualifications. It'd be rather unfunny to find out that your
female squadmate isn't strong enough to drag you to safety when you get
hit in combat. Of course, if a woman can pass all the same strength and
fitness tests as the men, I don't see a problem, but such individuals
are rare enough that it's easiest to just blanket ban them from it.

> I watched my mother <snip>
>

Your mother is a tough lady, all right. *tips hat*

> Whether it be man or woman, I respect a person that knows their
> strengths *and* limitations, and who isn't insulted that God made
> them the way they are for a purpose.
>
>

So basically we agree, we just have a little difference of opinion on
what kinds of things men and women are suited for. I suspect not even in
that, since it is my argument that everyone should be judged according
to their talents and skills and given the same opportunities as everyone
else to take advantage of them and reap the rewards.

Best regards,
Edi

-----------------------

Larry wrote:

>Hello Esko,
>
>
> Note to everyone else: if you skipped hän's post, go back and
> read it. It's wonderful! And if you didn't get the joke in my
> first sentence, I *know* you didn't read it. :)
>
>
>EH> Second, you guys have no idea just how lucky you are to have a language
>EH> with separate pronouns for the sexes in the first place. In Finnish
>EH> there is only a single neutral pronoun, "hän", which refers to both men
>EH> and women, and it completely fucks up many sorts of sentences that an
>EH> English-speaker would write without a second thought.
>
> Have you seen the other end of the spectrum? German. Deutsch has
> multiples for each gender, dependant on age, situation, who is
> speaking, etc. It's a nightmare.
>
>
>EH> Consider the following (rather poor and hurriedly thought up) example:
>
> Your illustration is *exactly* what I was referring to earlier.
> I've seen attempts at it already with English, and it was just as
> baffling and ludicrous.
>
>
>
>EH> My own personal opinion is that the attempts to push the use of the
>EH> female pronoun for this purpose or (*puke*) alternating the male and
>EH> female pronouns is just a misguided trend...
>
> Nah, you can take the leap and admit it's truth, not just opinion.
> :)
>
>
>EH> ...arising out of oversensitized, hysteric political correctness which
>EH> seems to pervade much of American culture these days.
>
> Makes ya sick, doesn't it? I have to live amidst it. I'm not an
> "American basher," but still, I wish people, especially Americans,
> retained the ability to be embarrassed or ashamed when they're
> acting like whiny little kids and others call them on it. Sadly,
> they don't even realize what they're doing. So many years of
> freedom and prosperity (generally speaking) have lead to a sedate,
> take-it-for-granted level of comfort and mental laziness (and a
> definite belief of holding the cultural and moral high ground),
> that I'm not at all surprised, but still extremely frustrated, to
> see other nations looking at us with revulsion and/or disdain.
> Just don't let all of those types fool you. It started out great,
> and it still is a great country, filled with many good, honest,
> hard-working people that earn every ounce of that freedom and
> prosperity, and who don't act that way. Problem is, due to their
> natural common sense and manners, they aren't the ones the rest of
> the world sees on camera.
>
>
>EH> It sometimes seems as if people are actively looking for something,
>EH> anything, to be offended at, and many go to ridiculous lengths to
>EH> find something trivial to nitpick.
>
> You are absolutely correct, and those groups of imbeciles often
> end up being heard as "the voice of America," not because they
> truly represent the majority, but merely because they are the ones
> doing the loud screaming and doing everything they can to be seen
> and heard. It's sickening.
>
>
>EH> Even worse are those who accommodate such nitpickers.
>
> Bravo!!! Absolutely correct.
>
>
>EH> That said, I don't take offense at somebody using the female pronoun as
>EH> generic, it's just as good for the purpose as the male one, which is the
>EH> default only by tradition, and keeping a tradition just for the sake of
>EH> keeping a tradition isn't enough justification to say that it is somehow
>EH> wrong.
>
> Minor disagreement, here. I'm a purist, and it does offend me. Not
> because I have dainty, easily offended sensibilities, but merely
> because I see it as just another ploy by the ones mentioned above.
> I see it as "them" attempting to destroy a work of art that I
> love, and their motives are insane, selfish, and not entirely
> sincere. And I wouldn't say it was just tradition. It's the
> finished craft, woven by a master, and changing a masterpiece, for
> whatever reasons, only diminishes and corrupts it.
>
>
>EH> I'll personally use the male pronoun for generic expressions because
>EH> that's the way I learned it and because it still is the accepted form,
>EH> while using 'she' is considered an oddity.
>
> Completely agree.
>
>
>EH> I'm something of a linguistical purist in some respects, but I realize
>EH> that languages change with the passage of time and some things that were
>EH> previously "forbidden" may become accepted...
>
> Sadly inevitable, but I don't have to like it.
>
>
>EH> ...and I don't have a problem with that.
>
> Eek!
>
>
>EH> It's the stuff like people substituting "possibul" for "possible" and
>EH> similar illiterate stupidity that send me through the roof...
>
> 99% of the time that just makes me ill, especially when I see a 45
> year old black man who's a multi-millionaire rap star doing it
> because it's part of his image, and the kids all start copying him
> and don't bother to get a real education as a result, because they
> think it's cool to talk and write that way, and school isn't cool.
> I've seen the fallout of years of this, and the streets are now
> filled with absolute morons that never speak an original sentence,
> with every word and obligatory hand gesture being something
> drilled into them by this disgusting counter-culture.
>
> The remaining 1% that I don't mind is something that I taught
> myself a long time ago, and it has a purpose. I'm referring to
> typing phonetically where appropriate, for the purpose of infusing
> a little personality and a better, more accurate "feel" for the
> writer. When I write casual emails, I often "type as I speak" so
> that the inflection, tone, and mood can be conveyed. It could go
> too far, of course, but I've never allowed myself to do that, and
> over the years it's worked well for me and added a distinct flavor
> to my "speech" that people can see is distinctive to me. Heck,
> I've even had women tell me that "I type sexy" whatever the hell
> that means. LOL (Perhaps my little scheme has worked too well!)
>
>
>EH> ...not the minor things like whether to use he or she for generic
>EH> pronoun. That's not something that can be called butchering the English
>EH> language, not by a long shot.
>
> When compared to that I do see your point. <Chuckle>
>
>
>EH> Regarding women, some professions are seen as women's stuff largely
>EH> because those were basically seen as the only jobs that could be
>EH> considered proper for women to do (so far as any jobs were), and those
>EH> troglodytic attitudes have taken a long time to disappear.
>
> Let's also not forget that there were times when vital jobs were
> done by men because women literally couldn't do them. They took
> sheer brute strength to do, and the women took care of many of the
> remaining duties. It wasn't sexist, it was just logic in action.
>
>
>EH> There's still a long way to go before they are completely eradicated,
>EH> but it's happening. Not fast enough for some people while others are
>EH> content with this pace...
>
> Call me old fashioned, or even something less dignified, but I'm
> one of those people that can see the differences beneath the skin,
> and am not upset or ashamed to be one side of a coin, so to speak.
> Men and women were made differently, not just physically, but in
> their psyches, mindsets, natural aptitudes, etc. We were designed
> to compliment each other, not to fight over who gets to do what
> task because we feel slighted that it's a given for the other
> gender. I watched my mother cook, clean, wash clothes, and
> maintain a household on a daily basis, for many years, and let me
> tell ya, it wasn't a walk in the park. It was damned hard,
> grueling work. But she rolled up her sleeves and did it every day,
> without a single complaint, and I was in awe of her determination
> and stamina. She wasn't very tall, and I was growing like a
> mutated tree, but all those soaked, heavy laundry baskets she
> carried out to the line every day gave those little arms enough
> strength to beat *me* at arm wrestling any day of the week.
> Whether it be man or woman, I respect a person that knows their
> strengths *and* limitations, and who isn't insulted that God made
> them the way they are for a purpose.
>
> Oh dear Lord, I really *do* want a girl like the girl that married
> dear old dad... How cliche.
>
> I need a drink.
>
>
>EH> ...but getting all PC about certain less significant things in
>EH> order to compensate for the more important stuff isn't the answer.
>
> Yeppers.
>
>
>EH> And now that I've more or less offended everyone here so far, feel free
>EH> to crisp me to a cinder. *dons flame-retardant body armor* ;-)
>
> Offended? Are you kidding me? I'm on the verge of proposing...
>
>
> <Chuckle>
>
>
>
>Best regards,
>
> Larry mailto:Kurgan@Fastmail.fm
>
>

Martin Gallo wrote:

>Interesting...
>
>
>
>>Now, try and write that with a single gender-neutral pronoun: "James met
>>Jack and Helen at the mall. Hän had long fancied häntä (objective form),
>>but knew that hän was with hän, so hän had always kept hänen (his/her)
>>feelings to hänself."
>>
>>
>
>Are you REQUIRED to use the neutral from when
>writing in Finnish? My 'solution' would be to
>just write the proper male/female pronoun. Of
>course it might just be that particular
>example....
>
>

You missed the point, Martin, there is no way to write it with gender
specific pronouns in Finnish, because the language only has one, single
pronoun that is used for both sexes. There are NO gender specific
pronouns in my native language.

Edi

>You missed the point, Martin, there is no way to write it with gender
>specific pronouns in Finnish, because the language only has one, single
>pronoun that is used for both sexes. There are NO gender specific
>pronouns in my native language.

Wow. You are right - I missed that completely. Wow - I feel for you guys.
--


"If you haven't got your health, at least you have something to talk about."

"They say that everything happens for a reason. I am just tired of
that reason being to make me unhappy or embarrassed."

"You can't make a baby in a month using nine women, but it sounds
like it would be fun to try!"

"Does it ever occur to women that maybe it is their butts that make
their pants look big?"

MG> Wow. You are right - I missed that completely. Wow - I feel for you guys.

Oh, no, look out! He feels your pain!

:)


The resident right-wing smartass,


Larry mailto:Kurgan@Fastmail.fm

I think I must have somehow missed the earlier mention about this. I think it's
a few steps further away from DQ than what I am planning, but day-um that's on
the same track!

I'd be interested in more information about this. You mention playtesting; is
ther a plan to go commercial with this in some fashion?

--Rodger

Quoting hollowone@iprimus.com.au:

> As mentioned before
>
> http://www-personal.une.edu.au/~jgillel2/Master1.6.doc
>
> NOTE: This is a pre-playtesting version.
> The new version with playtesting feedback is still underway.
>
> - joel
>

----------------------------------------------------------------
This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program.

--- In dq-rules@yahoogroups.com, "dbarrass_2000"
<david.barrass@e...> wrote:

> (and don't tell me that you can save as HTML from
> word, the output is horrible :--(

Aside:
Word XP and Word 2003 have the option of outputting "Filtered HTML"
which is excellent - all the formatting is done is a stylesheet at
the top, and the rest is clean and compact. This is built-in to Word
2003 but I think was an addin to Word XP.

The Word 97/2000/XP default HTML format is messy and has too much
office-specific stuff because it isn't meant as HTML per se, but is
meant to be merely an interim format allowing you to 'round-trip'
Office documents on local intranets. Similarly, Word 2003 "WordXML"
format is a bit too bulky and - although this will change soon - not
yet supported nby third-party tools.

As long as the 'production' files are in TXT or HTML, though, it
doesn't matter to me what format anyone's working files are in.

I've moved a few things around from 2nd Edition. For example, I have
put the Consequences spells in the Magic Section. Several sections on
character maintenance and experience are also now in the Character
section (2) rather in World and Adventure (7).

I've left the old rule number in parentheses for reference.

Again, this is a first draft, and likely to change. I'm sure there
are still things to be added and there will be other revisions.

As always, Comments are encouraged.

--Rodger


Table of Contents (Preliminary Draft)
=====================================
0 - License and Credits
0-100 License
1 - Introduction, How to Play the Game, Game Terms
1-100
1-110 Introduction
1-120 Game Terms
1-200 How to Play the Game
1-220 General Course of Events (1)
1-250 Requirements for Play (2)
2 - Characters and Character Generation
2-120 Description of Characteristics (3)
2-200 Effects of Characteristics (4)
2-300 Characteristic Generation (5)
2-400 Character Background
2-420 Birthrights (6)
2-450 Aspects (7)
2-470 Heritage (8)
2-500 Creating Experienced Characters
2-550 NPCs
2-600 Character Maintenance
2-620 Recuperation and Upkeep (85)
2-650 Fatigue Loss and Recovery (82)
2-700 Experience
2-710 How Experience Is Gained (86)
2-750 How Experience Is Used (87)
3 - Combat
3-120 Combat Terminology (9)
3-130 Combat Equipment (10)
3-150 Preparation for Combat (11)
3-200 Combat Sequence (12)
3-220 Actions of Engaged Figures (13)
3-250 Actions of Non Engaged Figures (14)
3-280 Action Choice Restrictions (15)
3-300 Attacking (16)
3-330 Resolving Attempted Attacks (17)
3-350 Damage (18)
3-360 The Effects of Damage (19)
3-370 Fire
3-380 Infection (24)
3-400 Unarmed Combat (21)
3-430 Natural Weapons
3-450 Martial Arts
3-500 Weapons List (20)
3-600 Multi-Hex Creatures (22)
3-700 Special Combat
3-710 Mounted Combat (23)
4 - Magic
4-120 Definition of Magical Terms (25)
4-130 How Magic Works (26)
4-150 The Colleges of Magic (34)
4-180 Magic Conventions (35)
4-200 How to Cast Spells (27)
4-205 Quickcasting (PBA-106
4-220 Restrictions on Magic (29)
4-250 Counterspells and Resisting Spells (31)
4-300 Incorporating Magic into Combat (33)
4-330 The Effects of Spells (28)
4-370 Backfire from Spells and Rituals (30)
4-400 Universal Magical Abilities
4-420 Special Magical Preparations (32)
4-430 Ritual of Planar Travel (PBA-109
4-440 Consequences (84)
4-480 Cantrips (PBA-108
4-500 Thaumaturgies
4-510 The College of Ensorcelments and Enchantments (36)
4-520 The College of Sorceries of the Mind (37)
4-530 The College of Illusions (38)
4-540 The College of Naming Incantations (39)
4-550 The College of Shaping Magics (AW-91
4-600 Elementals
4-610 The College of Air Magics (40)
4-620 The College of Water Magics (41)
4-630 The College of Fire Magics (42)
4-640 The College of Earth Magics (43)
4-650 The College of Celestial Magics (44)
4-660 College of Time Magics (PBA-110
4-700 Entities
4-710 The College of Necromantic Conjurations (45)
4-720 The College of Black Magics (46)
4-730 The College of Greater Summonings (47)
4-740 The College of Lesser Summonings (AW-89
4-750 The College of Rune Magics (AW-90
4-760 College of Witchcraft (PBA-109
5 - Skills
5-250 Acquiring and Using Skills (48)
5-300 Languages (49)
5-400 Adventure Abilities
5-420 Horesemanship
5-460 Swimming
5-470 Stealth
5-500 Alchemist (50)
5-510 Assassin (51)
5-520 Astrologer (52)
5-530 Beast Master (53)
5-540 Courtesan (54)
5-545 Diplomat (PBA-112
5-550 Healer (55)
5-555 Herbalist (PBA-113
5-557 Hunter (PBA-114
5-560 Mechanician (56)
5-570 Merchant (57)
5-580 Military Scientist (58)
5-590 Navigator (59)
5-600 Ranger (60)
5-610 Spy and
5-620 Thief (61)
5-630 Troubadour (62)
5-800 Minor Skills (PBA-111
6 - Monsters
7 - World and Adventure
7-180 Game Conventions (78)
7-200 The Adventure Sequence (80)
7-220 Preparation for Adventure (77)
7-230 Organizing a Party (79)
7-300 Adventure Actions (83)
7-400 Monetary Matters (81)
7-420 Extended Merchant Tables (PBA-122
7-430 Horse Trading (PBA-121
7-440 Alchemical and Herbal Shopkeeping (PBA-116
7-470 Building Costs (PBA-118
7-480 Peasants and Labor (PBA-119
7-485 Farming (PBA-120
7-600 Guide to Magical Rocks, Stones and Gems (AW-93
7-650 Guide to Herbal Lore (AW-94

This is a great start! I would recommend that we leave out things that
are not yet part of the canon (I know we had a long discussion about
this a while back), such as time magics, until we get the basics down.
Perhaps what we could do is recreate the basics, and then create
functional rules for additions.

Also, some of the things you have seem to high on the list. Horse
trading is perhaps a sub set of something else. Explain how a third
number would work in this system again?
John C.

On Jun 7, 2004, at 2:12 PM, rthorm wrote:

> I've moved a few things around from 2nd Edition.  For example, I have
> put the Consequences spells in the Magic Section.  Several sections on
> character maintenance and experience are also now in the Character
> section (2) rather in World and Adventure (7).
>
> I've left the old rule number in parentheses for reference.
>
> Again, this is a first draft, and likely to change.  I'm sure there
> are still things to be added and there will be other revisions.
>
> As always, Comments are encouraged.
>
>   --Rodger
>
>
> Table of Contents (Preliminary Draft)
> =====================================
> 0    - License and Credits
> 0-100 License
> 1    - Introduction, How to Play the Game, Game Terms
> 1-100
> 1-110 Introduction
> 1-120 Game Terms
> 1-200 How to Play the Game
> 1-220 General Course of Events (1)
> 1-250 Requirements for Play (2)
> 2    - Characters and Character Generation
> 2-120 Description of Characteristics (3)
> 2-200 Effects of Characteristics (4)
> 2-300 Characteristic Generation (5)
> 2-400 Character Background
> 2-420 Birthrights (6)
> 2-450 Aspects (7)
> 2-470 Heritage (8)
> 2-500 Creating Experienced Characters
> 2-550 NPCs
> 2-600 Character Maintenance
> 2-620 Recuperation and Upkeep (85)
> 2-650 Fatigue Loss and Recovery (82)
> 2-700 Experience
> 2-710 How Experience Is Gained (86)
> 2-750 How Experience Is Used (87)
> 3    - Combat
> 3-120 Combat Terminology (9)
> 3-130 Combat Equipment (10)
> 3-150 Preparation for Combat (11)
> 3-200 Combat Sequence (12)
> 3-220 Actions of Engaged Figures (13)
> 3-250 Actions of Non Engaged Figures (14)
> 3-280 Action Choice Restrictions (15)
> 3-300 Attacking (16)
> 3-330 Resolving Attempted Attacks (17)
> 3-350 Damage (18)
> 3-360 The Effects of Damage (19)
> 3-370 Fire
> 3-380 Infection (24)
> 3-400 Unarmed Combat (21)
> 3-430 Natural Weapons
> 3-450 Martial Arts
> 3-500 Weapons List (20)
> 3-600 Multi-Hex Creatures (22)
> 3-700 Special Combat
> 3-710 Mounted Combat (23)
> 4    - Magic
> 4-120 Definition of Magical Terms (25)
> 4-130 How Magic Works (26)
> 4-150 The Colleges of Magic (34)
> 4-180 Magic Conventions (35)
> 4-200 How to Cast Spells (27)
> 4-205 Quickcasting (PBA-106
> 4-220 Restrictions on Magic (29)
> 4-250 Counterspells and Resisting Spells (31)
> 4-300 Incorporating Magic into Combat (33)
> 4-330 The Effects of Spells (28)
> 4-370 Backfire from Spells and Rituals (30)
> 4-400 Universal Magical Abilities
> 4-420 Special Magical Preparations (32)
> 4-430 Ritual of Planar Travel (PBA-109
> 4-440 Consequences (84)
> 4-480 Cantrips (PBA-108
> 4-500 Thaumaturgies
> 4-510 The College of Ensorcelments and Enchantments (36)
> 4-520 The College of Sorceries of the Mind (37)
> 4-530 The College of Illusions (38)
> 4-540 The College of Naming Incantations (39)
> 4-550 The College of Shaping Magics (AW-91
> 4-600 Elementals
> 4-610 The College of Air Magics (40)
> 4-620 The College of Water Magics (41)
> 4-630 The College of Fire Magics (42)
> 4-640 The College of Earth Magics (43)
> 4-650 The College of Celestial Magics (44)
> 4-660 College of Time Magics (PBA-110
> 4-700 Entities
> 4-710 The College of Necromantic Conjurations (45)
> 4-720 The College of Black Magics (46)
> 4-730 The College of Greater Summonings (47)
> 4-740 The College of Lesser Summonings (AW-89
> 4-750 The College of Rune Magics (AW-90
> 4-760 College of Witchcraft (PBA-109
> 5    - Skills
> 5-250 Acquiring and Using Skills (48)
> 5-300 Languages (49)
> 5-400 Adventure Abilities
> 5-420 Horesemanship
> 5-460 Swimming
> 5-470 Stealth
> 5-500 Alchemist (50)
> 5-510 Assassin (51)
> 5-520 Astrologer (52)
> 5-530 Beast Master (53)
> 5-540 Courtesan (54)
> 5-545 Diplomat (PBA-112
> 5-550 Healer (55)
> 5-555 Herbalist (PBA-113
> 5-557 Hunter (PBA-114
> 5-560 Mechanician (56)
> 5-570 Merchant (57)
> 5-580 Military Scientist (58)
> 5-590 Navigator (59)
> 5-600 Ranger (60)
> 5-610 Spy and
> 5-620 Thief (61)
> 5-630 Troubadour (62)
> 5-800 Minor Skills (PBA-111
> 6    - Monsters
> 7    - World and Adventure
> 7-180 Game Conventions (78)
> 7-200 The Adventure Sequence (80)
> 7-220 Preparation for Adventure (77)
> 7-230 Organizing a Party (79)
> 7-300 Adventure Actions (83)
> 7-400 Monetary Matters (81)
> 7-420 Extended Merchant Tables (PBA-122
> 7-430 Horse Trading (PBA-121
> 7-440 Alchemical and Herbal Shopkeeping (PBA-116
> 7-470 Building Costs (PBA-118
> 7-480 Peasants and Labor (PBA-119
> 7-485 Farming (PBA-120
> 7-600 Guide to Magical Rocks, Stones and Gems (AW-93
> 7-650 Guide to Herbal Lore (AW-94
>
>
>
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Hi John--

I was having similar thoughts as I was putting this all together. The new
numbering scheme actually has 100 times the capacity as the old one (assuming
that SPI's scheme was two digit rules from 1-99), and maybe the new system is
too much of a jump. On the other hand, it should be possible to put new rules
in and keep them in sequence without too much difficulty.

I also agree that some things seem out of place, such as the Horse Trading you
mentioned. But I wanted to lay things out just to see how they looked at
first.
I am approaching this with Second Edition rules, plus Arcane Wisdom and Poor
Brendan's Almanac as my base. So I did my layout working from that standpoint.
If you prefer not to use Time Magics, you can just leave it out. (That's what
I do with Illusionists in my campaign, but that's another old topic.)

Looking at it, I think that some of the decisions in the original layout were
based on Redmond Simonsen trying to get everything to fit well in the three
spine-stapled books. And I believe that is why Consequences (84) is tucked
back in Book 3 (to name one obvious example), rather than being found in Book
2, which makes much more sense.



Quoting "J. Corey" <john@dragonquestadventures.com>:

> This is a great start! I would recommend that we leave out things that
> are not yet part of the canon (I know we had a long discussion about
> this a while back), such as time magics, until we get the basics down.
> Perhaps what we could do is recreate the basics, and then create
> functional rules for additions.
>
> Also, some of the things you have seem to high on the list. Horse
> trading is perhaps a sub set of something else. Explain how a third
> number would work in this system again?
> John C.

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DQ Combat Rules in Outline Format

3 - Combat
3-120 Combat Terminology (9)
3-130 Combat Equipment (10)
3-150 Preparation for Combat (11)
3-200 Combat Sequence (12)
3-220 Actions of Engaged Figures (13)
3-250 Actions of Non Engaged Figures (14)
3-280 Action Choice Restrictions (15)
3-300 Attacking (16)
3-310 Special Attacks (16.5)
3-330 Resolving Attempted Attacks (17)
3-350 Damage (18)
3-360 The Effects of Damage (19)
3-370 Fire
3-380 Infection (24)
3-400 Unarmed Combat (21)
3-430 Natural Weapons
3-450 Martial Arts
3-500 Weapons List (20)
3-600 Multi-Hex Creatures (22)
3-700 Special Combat
3-710 Mounted Combat (23)

3 - Combat
=============
In any DragonQuest world, individual combat is an inevitable (and sometimes
necessary) occurrence, and the players should be aware of its dangers.

3-120 COMBAT TERMINOLOGY
------------------------
The following terms are used throughout the combat rules:

3-130 COMBAT EQUIPMENT
----------------------
To aid in the resolution of combat situations, the players and the GM should
have a number of items close at hand.

3-150 PREPARATION FOR COMBAT
----------------------------
Whenever it has been determined that combat in some form is an inevitable result
of an encounter, the GM must set up all the equipment necessary for the
resolution of combat (see 10.).

[3-150.a] Prior to placing the hostile figures on the display, the GM determines
whether a surprise situation exists.

[3-150.b] After placing all the figures on the display, the GM assigns any
Fatigue losses the figures may have incurred as a result of their actions prior
to combat.

3-200 COMBAT SEQUENCE
---------------------
The order in which all actions are attempted in a Pulse is called the combat
sequence.

[3-200.a] A Pulse is a 5-second increment of time used to regulate all actions
in combat situations.

[3-200.b] At the beginning of a Pulse, Initiative must be determined for all
nonengaged figures.

[3-200.c] For engaged figures, Initiative is determined by comparing each
figure's Initiative Value.
Initiative Value:
modified Agility+Perception+Rank with any prepared weapon

[3-200.d] An engagement is defined as any number of figures occupying adjacent
hexes, occupying the same hex, or any combination thereof.

[3-200.e] When a figure chooses an action, it is assumed to be performing that
action until it may choose again.

3-220 ACTIONS OF ENGAGED FIGURES
--------------------------------
Being engaged imposes certain limitations on the actions which a figure may
attempt.

[3-220.a] An engaged figure may Melee attack any figure within his Melee Zone.

[3-220.b] An engaged figure may Evade.

[3-220.c] An engaged figure may Withdraw.

[3-220.d] An engaged figure may take any Pass action.

[3-220.e] An Adept who is engaged may attempt to cast a spell.

[3-220.f] An engaged figure may attempt to Close and Grapple.

[3-220.g] A figure engaged in Close combat may attempt to Grapple, Pass or
Withdraw.

3-250 ACTIONS OF NON-ENGAGED FIGURES
------------------------------------
A non-engaged figure is one who is not adjacent to any hostile figure on the
display.

[3-250.a] A non-engaged figure may move any number of hexes up to its Tactical
Movement Rate (TMR).

[3-250.b] A non-engaged figure may move up to 1/2 (rounded down) of his TMR and
attempt to Melee attack with a non-pole weapon, and this action is a Charge.

[3-250.c] A non-engaged figure may move up to his full TMR and attempt to Melee
attack with a Pole weapon, and this action is a Charge.

[3-250.d] A non-engaged figure may move up to 1/2 of his TMR (rounded down) and
attempt to Grapple, and this is a Charge and Close.

[3-250.e] A non-engaged figure may move up to 1/2 (rounded down) of his full TMR
and Evade as he moves.

[3-250.f] A non-engaged figure may move up to 2 hexes directly backward, and
this is a Retreat.

[3-250.g] A non-engaged figure may fire a Missile or Thrown Weapon. or loose a
Spell, and these are all Fire actions.

[3-250.h] A non-engaged figure may move up to two hexes and perform any Pass
action.

3-280 ACTION CHOICE RESTRICTIONS
--------------------------------
Normally figures occupying the Tactical Display may only attempt one permissible
action per Pulse.

[3-280.a] Figures with a modified Agility of 8 or less are allowed one less hex
of movement when executing any of the following actions: Melee attack, Evade,
Retreat, Pass, and Charge with a Pole Weapon.

[3-280.b] Figures with a modified Agility of 22 through 25 are allowed one extra
hex of movement when executing any of the following actions: Melee attack,
Evade, Withdraw, Pass, and Retreat.

[3-280.c] Figures with modified Agilities of 26 and above may combine any two of
the following actions in a single Pulse: Melee attack, Evade, Withdraw, Pass,
Close and Grapple, Grapple, Charge, Charge and Close, Retreat, and Fire.

[3-280.d] A figure who becomes Stunned may attempt no other action except try to
recover from being Stunned.

[3-280.e] A figure's choice of combat actions is limited by his position
relative to the intended target of his attack.

[3-280.f] If an Adept attempts to cast a spell while either being Ranged
attacked or Melee attacked, he must perform a Concentration Check (see 29.5).

[3-280.g] The Action Summary lists all actions and their restrictions.

3-300 ATTACKING
---------------
A hostile figure may be attacked by Ranged, Melee, or Close combat while on the
display.

[3-300.a] A figure may attempt to attack a hostile figure he is not adjacent to
via Ranged Combat by executing a Fire action.

[3-300.b] A figure may attempt to Melee attack any hostile figure who occupies
at least one hex of his Melee Zone.

[3-300.c] A figure may attempt to attack any figure who occupies the same hex
only via Close combat by executing a Grapple action.

[3-300.d] A figure who is armed with either two prepared weapons or one
two-handed class B weapon may attempt a Multiple Strike.

[3-300.e] A figure attempting to attack may specify any one of the following
special attacks:
see 3-310

3-310 SPECIAL ATTACKS
---------------------
A figure attempting to attack may specify any one of the following special
attacks:
Trip.
Entangle.
Restrain.
Knockout.
Shield Rush.
Disarm.

3-330 RESOLVING ATTEMPTED ATTACKS
---------------------------------
Every weapon and attack form is assigned a Base Chance.

[3-330.a] The Strike Chance of an attacking figure is a combination of the
Chance of the weapon or attack form plus modifiers for Rank and Manual
Dexterity.

Strike Chance:
(Base Chance of Weapon) + (Modified Manual Dexterity)+(4 x Rank)

[3-330.b] An attacker's Modified Strike Chance is equal to its Strike Chance
minus the target's Defense plus any modifications for attack type and attack
conditions.

[3-330.c] Whenever the Strike Check results in a roll of 99 or 100. the attacker
may have either dropped or broken his weapon.

[3-330.d] Whenever the Strike Check result is 30 or more above the Modified
Strike Chance, the target may have Parried the attack.

[3-330.e] A figure's Defense Rating is a combination of his modified Agility
plus any defense afforded by a prepared shield.

[3-330.f] Each attack type (Ranged, Melee, or Close) has its own list of Strike
Chance modifications.

[3-330.g] The charts listing modifiers used in calculating the Modified Strike
Chance of any attack include the Shield Chart, Ranged Combat Chart, Melee
Combat Chart, Close Combat Chart, Lighting Conditions Chart, and the
Miscellaneous Conditions Chart.

3-350 DAMAGE
------------
Whenever a figure is hit by a weapon or magic, a Damage Check is performed.

[3-350.a] Damage affecting Fatigue is absorbed by armor.

[3-350.b] A Strike Check of 15% or less of the Modified Strike Chance results in
damage directly affecting Endurance which is never absorbed by armor, and the
stricken figure always takes the full amount of the damage.

[3-350.c] Grievous Injuries may result if the successful Strike Check is 5% or
less of the Modified Strike Chance.

[3-350.d] Damage incurred as a result of a magical attack is applied
differently.

[3-350.e] (Optional Rule) The damage done with a particular weapon may be
increased due to exceptional Physical Strength or Rank.

3-360 THE EFFECTS OF DAMAGE
---------------------------
The ultimate result of incurring damage for any figure is death; this arrives
when the figure's Endurance reaches 0.

3-370 FIRE
----------
New Section pending...

3-380 INFECTION
---------------
At the end of every combat in which a figure is wounded, or when a figure is
wounded in a non-combat situation, there is the possibility that figure has
become infected as a result of their wound.

3-400 UNARMED COMBAT
--------------------
Any figure may attempt to attack a hostile figure by using his hands and feet.

Base Chance:
(modified Agility x 2) + 1 per point figure's Physical Strength is above 15

Damage:
D-4, + 1 per 3 points of Physical Strength above 15

3-430 NATURAL WEAPONS
---------------------
New Section pending...

3-450 MARTIAL ARTS
------------------
New Section pending...

3-500 WEAPONS
-------------
Any instrument used to inflict damage on a figure is called a weapon.

[3-500.a] A figure need not use any normal weapon to attack.

[3-500.b] The Weapons Chart lists an normal weapons and their characteristics.

[3-500.c] Figures may, at the GM's discretion, employ envenomed weapons.

[3-500.d] A figure struck by a Class A missile or thrown weapon will have his
Agility lowered until the weapon is removed.

3-600 MULTI-HEX FIGURES
-----------------------
Many monsters detailed in the Monsters Section (VIII) will occupy more than one
hex on the Tactical Display.

3-700 SPECIAL COMBAT
--------------------
New Section pending...

3-710 MOUNTED COMBAT
--------------------
In mounted combat, the TMR of the figure (comprising the mount and the rider) is
that of the mount; the rider may not move at all.


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Great Start!
As with Swimming, Climbing should be added for every PC, not only thieves.
Best regards... Arturo

_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Información de Estados Unidos y América Latina, en Yahoo! Noticias.
Visítanos en http://noticias.espanol.yahoo.com

Argh NO! no commercialism... I just loved DQ in its original format and
decided we (about 20 local gamers) needed a RP heavy game with realism.
DQ provided the best of both worlds, and I set up a web sight (sadly defunct
now) to distribute what we'd worked up.

All in all there have been about 9 incrnations of the system ... the latest
revision has taken about 18 months so far and has included a complete re-
write of the magical system and races.

- joel

>
> I'd be interested in more information about this. You mention
> playtesting; is ther a plan to go commercial with this in some
> fashion?
>
> --Rodger
>
> Quoting hollowone@iprimus.com.au:
>
> > As mentioned before
> >
> > http://www-personal.une.edu.au/~jgillel2/Master1.6.doc
> >
> > NOTE: This is a pre-playtesting version.
> > The new version with playtesting feedback is still underway.
> >
> > - joel
> >
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------
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>
>
> __________ NOD32 1.704 (20040404) Information __________
>
> This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system.
> http://www.nod32.com
>
>

Joel Gilleland - AU2001090365
aNST Mortals Australia & DST Armidale/New England
Unofficial PTAP page http://www-personal.une.edu.au/~jgillel2/
List Mod Aus-Hunters & Aus-Headlines

There is a website that is collecting stories and information about
how people have been harmed by the copyright extensions and works
which have become "orphaned" rather than falling into public domain
(http://notabug.com/kahle/). We've got an excellent case study for
them with DQ, and I'd like to collect as much information as I can in
order to assemble a nice complete package for them.

(N.B. I see that David McCorkhill has posted SPI's Universe there
already (http://notabug.com/kahle/128). In parallel with that, I
think that we can provide some good information for the DQ side of the
SPI saga, and I think the DQ community is larger and has made more
inquiries and attempts at acquiring the rights to the game.)

I know a couple of you have contacted various rights-holders who may
(or may not) have had the rights to DQ. Information about this will
be especially useful. (I don't need copies of it right now, but the
legal team might eventually want a copy if they decide to use our
information as part of this.)

Also, if anyone is in current or recent contact with any of the old
SPI DragonQuest team (Gerry/Chris Klug especially, but any of the
other authors), I'd like to get in touch with them to get their take
on the case and see if they would be willing to provide some
additional information or author's perspective.

--Rodger Thorm

Here's the background for this, which I picked up from the Copyfight
website:
(http://www.corante.com/copyfight/archives/004352.html)

Lessig Legal Team Seeks Copyright Stories for Brewster Kahle v. John
Ashcroft lawsuit

Lawrence Lessig and his legal team are asking for your help. Kahle v.
Ashcroft is a lawsuit that challenges changes to U.S. copyright law
that have created a large class of "orphan works" -- creative works
which are out of print and no longer commercially available, but which
are still regulated by copyright.

The Kahle team is collecting examples of people being burdened by
these copyright-related barriers to the use of orphan works. Visit the
Kahle Submission Site and tell us your story.

Word version of DQ rules available

Many of you may recall that James Flowers had been working on a Word
version of the DQ rules, but that he had taken the file down from his
website last fall. I've recently been contacted by James again. He
has generously sent me the most recent version of his version of the
rules and allowed me to make it available for those who would like to
have a copy.

It is not a final version, but it looks very good, and is obviously
the product of a great deal of work. He has gone with two column
formatting (rather than the three column layout used in SPI's
printings), as well as formatted tables and so forth.

He notes about his project: "Please note that I use styles
extensively in Word, so you will need to be comfortable driving style
sheets to make the best use of it. There is still errata, etc., to go
into this document. However, I think I have the numbering conquered
(albeit it is manually numbered -- I can remedy this), so you should
be able to use Search and Replace to renumber to your new system quite
easily."

The file is relatively large at almost 4MB, so I have compressed it
into a zip file called DQrulesdoc.zip. This condensed it enough so
that it is under the 2MB limit. My appologies in advance to Mac users
as well as anyone else who has to go through extra convolutions in
order to get this file, but this seems to be the only way at this point.

The file can be downloaded from:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dq-rules/files/documents/

I am very grateful to James for making this document available and
allowing this group to use it. I suspect that, for many, this will be
more than adequate for their purposes.

--Rodger

## Note: This is another draft skill rewrite for the Open Source project. This
is more drastically changed from the base rule than Troubadour was.

Comments welcome.

--Rodger

5-600 RANGER

A ranger is an individual who is familiar with the natural environment. Rangers
develop skills in reading the land and are familiar with the various plants and
animals found in the wild. Rangers have some knowledge of herbal lore as well
as the habits and activities of wild beasts. A ranger develops a keen
understanding of the land and will develop a specialization in one particular
type of environment.

[5-600.a] Rangers specialize in one particular environment. A ranger chooses
an environment for specialization upon reaching Rank 2. A ranger may only have
one environmental specialization. A ranger's Rank is effectively increased
when they are acting in their specialty environment.
Ranger Rank Rank Bonus
3-4 +1
5-7 +2
8+ +3

A ranger specializing in the Ocean environ is at a disadvantage when on land
(except coasts) and is treated as though their Rank were 3 below their actual
Rank. Likewise, rangers specializing in any other environ are treated as
though their Rank were 3 below their actual Rank when at sea.
Specialization Environments: Field; Marsh; Plain; Mountain; Ocean; Rough;
Waste; Woods

[5-600.b] When in their specialty environment, a ranger is more likely to have
a favorable reaction when encountering an animal native to the environ. Add +2
per effective Rank to the reaction dice roll. This bonus does not apply if the
ranger (or any accompanying party member) takes hostile
action towards the creature.

[5-600.c] Rangers are most effective when working in wilderness rather than in
urban areas. A ranger's Rank is effectively reduced when the ranger is in any
large settlement, town or city.
Population Rank Reduction
2000+ (Village) -1
5000+ (Town) -2
10000+ (City) -3

[5-600.d] A ranger has an innate sense of direction and distance over land. A
ranger has the ability to locate the direction of true north to within [30 - (3
x Rank)] degrees (GM roll). This ability is an exception to the "Automatic
Success" rule (rule 48.4).

[5-600.e] A ranger also can determine the overland distance they have traveled
with (80 + Rank)% accuracy (GM roll). A ranger may use this ability
consecutively over a period of up to (1 + Rank) weeks. This ability is an
exception to the "Automatic Success" rule (rule 48.4).

[5-600.f] A ranger may use their abilities to travel an unmarked overland
route. The ranger's success chance takes into account their skill, local
conditions, and familiarity with the terrain. The GM may add other modifiers
to the ranger's chance based on the particular circumstance. If the GM's roll
is a failure, but less than twice the ranger's success chance, the ranger is
uncertain about the proper direction, and needs to spend (12 - Rank) hours to
examine the area further before trying again. If the roll is over twice the
success chance, the ranger has made an error and begins traveling in the wrong
direction. After [12 - (Rank/2)] hours of travel, the GM should roll again to
see if the ranger has realized the mistake, and then again every (12 - actual
Rank) hours afterward.

Overland Navigation Base Chance (GM roll):
([2 x Perception] + [7 x Rank])%

Modifiers (cumulative):
+15 Major landmark (mountain, etc.) along route (max 3)
+10 Start/endpoint of journey is familar to ranger (max 2)
-20 Ranger is 'lost' at the beginning

[5-600.g] A ranger may be able to recognize an ambush situation before walking
into it. The GM rolls D100 and informs the player if the character has
successfully detected the ambush. If the roll fails, the ranger does not
detect the ambush before it is sprung. The ranger's chance of detecting the
ambush is also reduced by the Rank of the Thief or Ranger who concealed the
ambush.

Detect Ambush Base Chance (GM roll):
([3 x perception] + [5 x Rank])%

Modifiers (non-cumulative):
- (2 x ambusher's Rank) set by Thief
- (5 x ambusher's Rank) set by Ranger

[5-600.h] A ranger is able to determine when non-native creatures (most often
humanoids) have traveled through an area of wilderness. As long as a target is
traveling over terrain where it may leave some kind of track, a ranger has the
ability to track it. Weather, concealment, and time will eventually degrade
the track to the point where the ranger is unable to follow it. A ranger may
normally follow a track that is up to (2 + [Rank Squared]) days old.

Tracking Base Chance (GM roll):
([Perception] + [6 x Rank])%

Modifiers:
BC is doubled if target was not attempting to conceal its tracks
- (4 x target's Rank) if target is a Ranger
modifiers for weather, terrain conditions, etc. at GM's discretion

[5-600.i] A ranger will be familiar with all common plant and animal products
(e.g. pine cones, venison), and will be able to identify many less common
items. If the roll is equal or less than the success chance, the ranger
recognizes the properties of the item. If the roll is greater than the success
chance, the ranger is uncertain, or unfamiliar with the item. If the roll is
greater than [80 + (2 x Rank)] the ranger misidentifies the item as something
else.

Identify Base Chance (GM roll):
([Perception] + [10 x Rank])%

[5-600.j] A ranger learns the curative properties of plants and can prepare and
apply them. A ranger must spend a number of hours foraging for the necessary
plants based on the remedy being sought. If the ranger's roll to find curative
plants is a grievous result, the necessary plants have been found in 1/4 the
normal time needed; if the roll is an endurance result, they are found in 1/2
the time. A ranger may not gather the plants for any of these remedies more
than (Rank/4) days (rounded down) in advance of its use, since they quickly
lose their properties once they have been gathered. Preparation and
application of the cure takes (12 - Rank) minutes (per point for curing
Endurance points). If the remedy is for skin irritation, fever, or disease,
the player rolls D100, and if the result is equal or less than the success
chance, the condition is cured.

Find Curative Plants Base Chance:
[Environ Base + (10 x Rank)]%

Cure skin irritation, fever, or disease Base Chance:
([15 x Ranger Rank] + [Patient's Endurance])

Environ Base Number:
Field-20; Marsh-40; Plain-30; Mountain-10; Ocean-5; Rough-15; Waste-10;
Woods-50

Foraging time required:
2 hours Salve skin irritations
4 hours Cure fever
8 hours Cure disease
12 hours Restore (D10 + (actual Rank - 5) lost Endurance Points

[5-600.k] A ranger is able to find food (edible leaves, berries, roots, etc.)
for humanoids. The amount of time needed to forage for sufficient food for one
human-sized individual will vary greatly, depending on the environ and the
season.

Foraging Time Required:
1/2 hour Field
2 hours Marsh
1 hour Plain
4 hours Mountain
4 hours Ocean
8 hours Rough
12 hours Waste
1 hour Woods

Seasonal multiplier:
Spring 2x; Summer 1x; Autumn 1.5x; Winter 4x

(Footnotes)
Note that many of the rules for rangers are adjusted from 2nd Ed, and some are
out of sequence from their presentation in that volume. Also note that
[5-600.k] is a new addition and is not part of 2nd Ed.

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Roger,

I downloaded this file from our group, but when I unzipped it there
was nothing int he folder. Can I get you to e-mail me the document???

Shawn wrote...

> I downloaded this file from our group, but when I unzipped it there
> was nothing int he folder. Can I get you to e-mail me the document???

Same here while you're at it. :)



Stephen

My appologies for the crossposting. Many, but not all, are subscribed to both
the DQN-list and to the DQ-rules groups, so I have posted this message to both
groups.

Ian Taylor has finished his work on compiling a complete set of ARES Magazines
on CD-ROM. These include not only all the DragonQuest material, but all of the
other articles, as well as the games, counters, etc.

His price for this is $9.95 US plus shipping.

The link to Ian's page for this is:
http://members.iinet.net.au/~avalon1/IMPRINT/ARES%20Magazine%20Archive/ARESArchive.htm


Since he is shipping from Australia, I have suggested that he bundle several
orders together, send them all to one person in the US (I've volunteered to do
this) and then re-mail them domestically to the buyers. This could help cut
down on the cost of shipping, which is looking to be higher than the cost of
the CD-ROM. (Ian and I would have to work out the logistics of figuring the
final cost and reimbursing me for the cost of postage. I could probably ship
to Canada as well in a similar fashion.)

Ian has told me that he is only waiting to get cases to put these in, and he
will be ready to start shipping.

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I just noticed that there is a part one file from September 2003 by
jrr_talking. Were the rest of the adventures ever completed?

By the way, I like the handle - I always thought he got paid by the word...
--


"If you haven't got your health, at least you have something to talk about."

"They say that everything happens for a reason. I am just tired of
that reason being to make me unhappy or embarrassed."

"You can't make a baby in a month using nine women, but it sounds
like it would be fun to try!"

"Does it ever occur to women that maybe it is their butts that make
their pants look big?"

part 2 exists as 1 page of brief notes,and characters sheets for the two
main npc in it.

on my listof things to finish

JohnD

>From: Martin Gallo <martimer@mindspring.com>
>Reply-To: dq-rules@yahoogroups.com
>To: dq-rules@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: [dq-rules] Terror Mylans Adventurres??
>Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2004 16:44:37 -0500
>
>I just noticed that there is a part one file from September 2003 by
>jrr_talking. Were the rest of the adventures ever completed?
>
>By the way, I like the handle - I always thought he got paid by the word...
>--
>
>
>"If you haven't got your health, at least you have something to talk
>about."
>
>"They say that everything happens for a reason. I am just tired of
>that reason being to make me unhappy or embarrassed."
>
>"You can't make a baby in a month using nine women, but it sounds
>like it would be fun to try!"
>
>"Does it ever occur to women that maybe it is their butts that make
>their pants look big?"

_________________________________________________________________
Express yourself with cool new emoticons http://www.msn.co.uk/specials/myemo

Hi Everyone

I've been wondering, has anyone ever tried to run DragonQuest using a
square grid instead of a hex grid. It does hint at using a square
grid in the 10. Combat Equipment "If the GM wishes to use a 1-inch
square grid instead of hexes, he may but should resolve any rules
anomalies himself." Has anyone come up with rules to overcome these
anomalies? I've been looking at some of the real nice Dwarven Forge
dungeon pieces and would be real cool to get DragonQuest to work on a
square basis, so that I could run a game using it. Any thoughts would
be greatly appreciated.

Thanks Steve

When I was playing D&D regularly many years ago (I could not gt
people to switch) we used a square grid. After a while, we decided to
revamp the movement system a bit by making movement along the grid
2MP and diagonal movement 3MP. This gave us better control and what
we felt was a more 'realistic' movement system - don't forget to
double the movement allowance if you try this.

>Hi Everyone
>
>I've been wondering, has anyone ever tried to run DragonQuest using a
>square grid instead of a hex grid. It does hint at using a square
>grid in the 10. Combat Equipment "If the GM wishes to use a 1-inch
>square grid instead of hexes, he may but should resolve any rules
>anomalies himself." Has anyone come up with rules to overcome these
>anomalies? I've been looking at some of the real nice Dwarven Forge
>dungeon pieces and would be real cool to get DragonQuest to work on a
>square basis, so that I could run a game using it. Any thoughts would
>be greatly appreciated.
>
>Thanks Steve
>
>
>
>
>To Post a message, send it to: dq-rules@eGroups.com
>To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: dq-rules-unsubscribe@eGroups.com
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

--


"If you haven't got your health, at least you have something to talk about."

"They say that everything happens for a reason. I am just tired of
that reason being to make me unhappy or embarrassed."

"You can't make a baby in a month using nine women, but it sounds
like it would be fun to try!"

"Does it ever occur to women that maybe it is their butts that make
their pants look big?"

I've made some adjustments to the Yahoo Groups settings for this
groups. It appears that there was some non-DQ activity going on using
the dqnewsletter group.

To discourage that sort of thing, I've turned off the chat and
database features in all DQ groups (dqnewsletter, dqn-list, and
dq-rules). My appologies if you get multiple copies of this message
if you are subscribed to more than one of those groups.

Those of you who keep other Yahoo lists with low traffic may want to
be on the lookout for this kind of problem, and disable the unused
features accordingly. I expect to see a couple dozen "members" drop
out of the dqnewsletter group in the near future.

If I have disabled any functionality in the group that you were using,
please let me know, and I'll try to restore it.

Thanks,

Rodger Thorm, moderator

looking for pdfs of the palace of onticel and the enchantd woods if
any one hase them let me know

I've been working on a non-DQ game recently, and my work on the DQ
rewrite has consequently taken a step or two down the priority ladder.
There wasn't a grand embracing of the concept either, so I'm going to
work at that as I have time.

I hadn't been aware of any other significant open-source RPG projects
until I ran across an article about the latest version of Paranoia.
Anyhow, here's the article; there's also a more direct link to an
announcement about Paranoia at the end of the article:

Paranoia game redesigned using open-source methodology
(http://www.boingboing.net/2004/08/06/paranoia_game_redesi.html)

Paranoia, the classic role-playing game in which players battle a mad,
totalitarian computer for their freedom ("a light-hearted game of
terror, death, bureaucracy, mad scientists, mutants, dangerous
weapons, insane robots, and technological satire that encourages
players to lie, cheat, and backstab each other at every turn") has
just re-launched with a new version that was collaboratively developed
with players via a Wiki, borrowing "the tools and methods of
open-source software development for a paper game."

To a large degree, the game was developed online, in public. Fans
of the game contributed enthusiastically via blog, wiki, and online
forum. They wrote text, debated rules, proofread, ran statistical
analyses, and even wrote a computer simulator to test the game's
paper-and-pencil rules.

"Online collaboration made this edition of Paranoia the best yet,"
said Allen Varney (www.allenvarney.com), the game's designer. "We
borrowed the tools and methods of open-source software development for
a paper game, and it worked brilliantly. I plan to create future games
the same way, and other designers should consider it too."

http://www.costik.com/weblog/2004_08_01_blogchive.html#109173202462615135

--Rodger

Hello,

This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the dq-rules
group.

File : /Soldier Skill.wpd.doc
Uploaded by : pitkinave44310 <hollywood314@juno.com>
Description : Soldier Skill

You can access this file at the URL:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dq-rules/files/Soldier%20Skill.wpd.doc

To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit:
http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/groups/files

Regards,

pitkinave44310 <hollywood314@juno.com>

I have uploaded a Soldier Skill I created to the files section. I
haven't had a chance to playtest this yet. I'm hoping to do so in a
couple of months. I think it fits a nice niche in the DQ skills.
I'm curious what everyone else thinks.

Stephen

Just downloaded your Soldier Skill - very well thought out! I'm going
to use this in my DQ worlds. Thanks for the contribution!

--Rob (hijole513 on Yahoo)

On Saturday, August 7, 2004, at 02:12 PM, pitkinave44310 wrote:

> I have uploaded a Soldier Skill I created to the files section. I
> haven't had a chance to playtest this yet. I'm hoping to do so in a
> couple of months. I think it fits a nice niche in the DQ skills.
> I'm curious what everyone else thinks.
>
> Stephen
>
>
>
>
> To Post a message, send it to: dq-rules@eGroups.com
> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
> dq-rules-unsubscribe@eGroups.com
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>

Hello,

This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the dq-rules
group.

File : /Wizard.doc
Uploaded by : uzikael <tdouglas@linuxpupil.com>
Description : Wizard Skill

You can access this file at the URL:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dq-rules/files/Wizard.doc

To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit:
http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/groups/files

Regards,

uzikael <tdouglas@linuxpupil.com>

Hello,

This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the dq-rules
group.

File : /Templar.doc
Uploaded by : uzikael <tdouglas@linuxpupil.com>
Description : Templar Skill

You can access this file at the URL:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dq-rules/files/Templar.doc

To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit:
http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/groups/files

Regards,

uzikael <tdouglas@linuxpupil.com>

Hello,

This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the dq-rules
group.

File : /PhyStr.doc
Uploaded by : uzikael <tdouglas@linuxpupil.com>
Description : New PS chart

You can access this file at the URL:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dq-rules/files/PhyStr.doc

To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit:
http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/groups/files

Regards,

uzikael <tdouglas@linuxpupil.com>

uzikael, I like your templar skill.

There's only one thing I do slightly disagree with, and that's the
relationship with magic. My own reading of the rules is that the
powers of light take a very dim view of magic, adepts would not be
allowed to gain the skill at all, and some religious sects would
happily burn them.
Magic items would be similarly disapproved of any templar using them
would have comments like "your faith is obviously not strong enough if
you have to resort to using such despicable tricks"

These are of course my opinions. I have my
religious/spirit/dimensions stuff I really must post here - since the
demise of DragonQuest Cathedral. Much of it is compatible with your
templar skill and I think would fit in well. Can I nick ideas from yours?

David

Attachments :

In my home game we have 4 GMs and we take turns playing/ and characters may be used in each others worlds. I had to write a skill that worked for everyone. Feel free to edit the skill for personal use.
I'm glad you liked it.

What do you think of the exp cost?

cheers
Todd
________________________________

From: dbarrass_2000 [mailto:david.barrass@ed.ac.uk]
Sent: Wed 8/11/2004 3:51 AM
To: dq-rules@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [dq-rules] Re: New file uploaded to dq-rules


uzikael, I like your templar skill.

There's only one thing I do slightly disagree with, and that's the
relationship with magic. My own reading of the rules is that the
powers of light take a very dim view of magic, adepts would not be
allowed to gain the skill at all, and some religious sects would
happily burn them.
Magic items would be similarly disapproved of any templar using them
would have comments like "your faith is obviously not strong enough if
you have to resort to using such despicable tricks"

These are of course my opinions. I have my
religious/spirit/dimensions stuff I really must post here - since the
demise of DragonQuest Cathedral. Much of it is compatible with your
templar skill and I think would fit in well. Can I nick ideas from yours?

David




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Hey guys,


Having some money troubles and am forced to sell off my DQ stuff.
Not happy about the idea, but as much as I love the game, the fact
is that I really don't have any opportunity to play it anyway, and
if I do, I can track everything down again in the future. I'm
planning on putting everything up on eBay, but I wanted to give
the groups here a shot at everything first. I'm broke, but I'm
loyal. :)

Here's what I've got. I'll consider any fair offers.

DragonQuest - original boxed set. Box is shiny, like new, but has
a slight bowing to it, and a small area near the top right corner
that looks like something was pressed against it in storage.
Contents are mint, like new. Chits are even, amazingly, un-punched.

DragonQuest 2nd ed. - hardcover. Virtually perfect condition. One
corner has a slight amount of wear (looks like it bumped into
something). Pages are crisp and white, and smell like they were
just printed thanks to being kept sealed in plastic (I keep it in
a plastic bag). Took years to find a copy, but I finally found one
that had made its way to England, and had it shipped back over. In
complete honesty, in 25 years, I've never seen another copy in as
good of condition as this one. Definite collector's copy. (I just
saw one on eBay that wasn't as clean sell for 85 bucks. Amazing.)

DragonQuest Gamemaster's Screen. Still sealed. I believe it's for
1st edition. Copyright 1980. Stock #: 331P11.

Arena of Death. New & unused. Cellophane was removed to look at
contents, but otherwise was set on the shelf. Chits un-punched.

The Blade of Allectus (adventure two). Like new. Shows slight
signs of wear along the spine, and there are a few subtle markings
on the cover that can be seen by tilting it to the light that look
like a few very tiny sprinkles of moisture made contact. Looking
directly at the book you can't see anything, though.

The Enchanted Wood (adventure three). Shiny, like new (definitely
un-used). A few very subtle indents from having been looked
through.

Ares magazine. Number 3. Two copies. One in good condition,
complete with game and map. Another spare copy in fair condition
that has had the game removed.

Worldkiller. Boxed game. Not DQ, but I include this because the
rulebook was lost, and was replaced by a copy of Ares number 1,
where the game originally came from. Boxtop has a couple of splits
and is bowed. Box bottom is fine. Magazine is intact, but shows
some signs of reading, and one corner is bent a little where,
apparently, someone wasn't paying attention when they put it back
in the box. Chits, however, are still un-punched. Actually was a
pretty cool find.

Well, that's it, unless you want my old, beat-up softcover copy of
2nd edition that I leave out for reading and use, but I kinda
doubt anyone would be interested in it, and that'll leave me
something to read. :)


Best regards,

Larry mailto:Kurgan@Fastmail.fm

Sorry to hear about your money troubles. I may be in the same boat
pretty soon...

The only item I would be interested in are the 2ed boxed set and the
hardcover rules but it sounds like it is too rich for my wallet.

Good luck.

Marty

>Hey guys,
>
>
> Having some money troubles and am forced to sell off my DQ stuff.
> Not happy about the idea, but as much as I love the game, the fact
> is that I really don't have any opportunity to play it anyway, and
> if I do, I can track everything down again in the future. I'm
> planning on putting everything up on eBay, but I wanted to give
> the groups here a shot at everything first. I'm broke, but I'm
> loyal. :)
>
> Here's what I've got. I'll consider any fair offers.
>
> DragonQuest - original boxed set. Box is shiny, like new, but has
> a slight bowing to it, and a small area near the top right corner
> that looks like something was pressed against it in storage.
> Contents are mint, like new. Chits are even, amazingly, un-punched.
>
> DragonQuest 2nd ed. - hardcover. Virtually perfect condition. One
> corner has a slight amount of wear (looks like it bumped into
> something). Pages are crisp and white, and smell like they were
> just printed thanks to being kept sealed in plastic (I keep it in
> a plastic bag). Took years to find a copy, but I finally found one
> that had made its way to England, and had it shipped back over. In
> complete honesty, in 25 years, I've never seen another copy in as
> good of condition as this one. Definite collector's copy. (I just
> saw one on eBay that wasn't as clean sell for 85 bucks. Amazing.)
>
> DragonQuest Gamemaster's Screen. Still sealed. I believe it's for
> 1st edition. Copyright 1980. Stock #: 331P11.
>
> Arena of Death. New & unused. Cellophane was removed to look at
> contents, but otherwise was set on the shelf. Chits un-punched.
>
> The Blade of Allectus (adventure two). Like new. Shows slight
> signs of wear along the spine, and there are a few subtle markings
> on the cover that can be seen by tilting it to the light that look
> like a few very tiny sprinkles of moisture made contact. Looking
> directly at the book you can't see anything, though.
>
> The Enchanted Wood (adventure three). Shiny, like new (definitely
> un-used). A few very subtle indents from having been looked
> through.
>
> Ares magazine. Number 3. Two copies. One in good condition,
> complete with game and map. Another spare copy in fair condition
> that has had the game removed.
>
> Worldkiller. Boxed game. Not DQ, but I include this because the
> rulebook was lost, and was replaced by a copy of Ares number 1,
> where the game originally came from. Boxtop has a couple of splits
> and is bowed. Box bottom is fine. Magazine is intact, but shows
> some signs of reading, and one corner is bent a little where,
> apparently, someone wasn't paying attention when they put it back
> in the box. Chits, however, are still un-punched. Actually was a
> pretty cool find.
>
> Well, that's it, unless you want my old, beat-up softcover copy of
> 2nd edition that I leave out for reading and use, but I kinda
> doubt anyone would be interested in it, and that'll leave me
> something to read. :)
>
>
>Best regards,
>
> Larry mailto:Kurgan@Fastmail.fm
>
>
>
>
>To Post a message, send it to: dq-rules@eGroups.com
>To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: dq-rules-unsubscribe@eGroups.com
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

--


"If you haven't got your health, at least you have something to talk about."

"They say that everything happens for a reason. I am just tired of
that reason being to make me unhappy or embarrassed."

"You can't make a baby in a month using nine women, but it sounds
like it would be fun to try!"

"Does it ever occur to women that maybe it is their butts that make
their pants look big?"

For those who do not have it, the enchanted wood is one of the great
adventures for any RPG.

John

On Aug 15, 2004, at 9:23 AM, Larry wrote:

> Hey guys,
>
>
>     Having some money troubles and am forced to sell off my DQ stuff.
>     Not happy about the idea, but as much as I love the game, the fact
>     is that I really don't have any opportunity to play it anyway, and
>     if I do, I can track everything down again in the future. I'm
>     planning on putting everything up on eBay, but I wanted to give
>     the groups here a shot at everything first. I'm broke, but I'm
>     loyal. :)
>
>     Here's what I've got. I'll consider any fair offers.
>
>     DragonQuest - original boxed set. Box is shiny, like new, but has
>     a slight bowing to it, and a small area near the top right corner
>     that looks like something was pressed against it in storage.
>     Contents are mint, like new. Chits are even, amazingly,
> un-punched.
>
>     DragonQuest 2nd ed. - hardcover. Virtually perfect condition. One
>     corner has a slight amount of wear (looks like it bumped into
>     something). Pages are crisp and white, and smell like they were
>     just printed thanks to being kept sealed in plastic (I keep it in
>     a plastic bag). Took years to find a copy, but I finally found one
>     that had made its way to England, and had it shipped back over. In
>     complete honesty, in 25 years, I've never seen another copy in as
>     good of condition as this one. Definite collector's copy. (I just
>     saw one on eBay that wasn't as clean sell for 85 bucks. Amazing.)
>
>     DragonQuest Gamemaster's Screen. Still sealed. I believe it's for
>     1st edition. Copyright 1980. Stock #: 331P11.
>
>     Arena of Death. New & unused. Cellophane was removed to look at
>     contents, but otherwise was set on the shelf. Chits un-punched.
>    
>     The Blade of Allectus (adventure two). Like new. Shows slight
>     signs of wear along the spine, and there are a few subtle markings
>     on the cover that can be seen by tilting it to the light that look
>     like a few very tiny sprinkles of moisture made contact. Looking
>     directly at the book you can't see anything, though.
>
>     The Enchanted Wood (adventure three). Shiny, like new (definitely
>     un-used). A few very subtle indents from having been looked
>     through.
>
>     Ares magazine. Number 3. Two copies. One in good condition,
>     complete with game and map. Another spare copy in fair condition
>     that has had the game removed.
>
>     Worldkiller. Boxed game. Not DQ, but I include this because the
>     rulebook was lost, and was replaced by a copy of Ares number 1,
>     where the game originally came from. Boxtop has a couple of splits
>     and is bowed. Box bottom is fine. Magazine is intact, but shows
>     some signs of reading, and one corner is bent a little where,
>     apparently, someone wasn't paying attention when they put it back
>     in the box. Chits, however, are still un-punched. Actually was a
>     pretty cool find.
>
>     Well, that's it, unless you want my old, beat-up softcover copy of
>     2nd edition that I leave out for reading and use, but I kinda
>     doubt anyone would be interested in it, and that'll leave me
>     something to read. :)
>
>
> Best regards,
>
>    Larry                       mailto:Kurgan@Fastmail.fm
>
>
>
> To Post a message, send it to:   dq-rules@eGroups.com
> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
> dq-rules-unsubscribe@eGroups.com
>
>
>
>
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>  
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> Service.
>
>

It would be helpful if you offered an opening bid price on these. I'm
interested, but I have to know how much you are willing to settle for...

--Rob

On Sunday, August 15, 2004, at 08:23 AM, Larry wrote:

> Hey guys,
>
>
> Having some money troubles and am forced to sell off my DQ stuff.
> Not happy about the idea, but as much as I love the game, the fact
> is that I really don't have any opportunity to play it anyway, and
> if I do, I can track everything down again in the future. I'm
> planning on putting everything up on eBay, but I wanted to give
> the groups here a shot at everything first. I'm broke, but I'm
> loyal. :)
>
> Here's what I've got. I'll consider any fair offers.
>
> DragonQuest - original boxed set. Box is shiny, like new, but has
> a slight bowing to it, and a small area near the top right corner
> that looks like something was pressed against it in storage.
> Contents are mint, like new. Chits are even, amazingly, un-punched.
>
> DragonQuest 2nd ed. - hardcover. Virtually perfect condition. One
> corner has a slight amount of wear (looks like it bumped into
> something). Pages are crisp and white, and smell like they were
> just printed thanks to being kept sealed in plastic (I keep it in
> a plastic bag). Took years to find a copy, but I finally found one
> that had made its way to England, and had it shipped back over. In
> complete honesty, in 25 years, I've never seen another copy in as
> good of condition as this one. Definite collector's copy. (I just
> saw one on eBay that wasn't as clean sell for 85 bucks. Amazing.)
>
> DragonQuest Gamemaster's Screen. Still sealed. I believe it's for
> 1st edition. Copyright 1980. Stock #: 331P11.
>
> Arena of Death. New & unused. Cellophane was removed to look at
> contents, but otherwise was set on the shelf. Chits un-punched.
>
> The Blade of Allectus (adventure two). Like new. Shows slight
> signs of wear along the spine, and there are a few subtle markings
> on the cover that can be seen by tilting it to the light that look
> like a few very tiny sprinkles of moisture made contact. Looking
> directly at the book you can't see anything, though.
>
> The Enchanted Wood (adventure three). Shiny, like new (definitely
> un-used). A few very subtle indents from having been looked
> through.
>
> Ares magazine. Number 3. Two copies. One in good condition,
> complete with game and map. Another spare copy in fair condition
> that has had the game removed.
>
> Worldkiller. Boxed game. Not DQ, but I include this because the
> rulebook was lost, and was replaced by a copy of Ares number 1,
> where the game originally came from. Boxtop has a couple of splits
> and is bowed. Box bottom is fine. Magazine is intact, but shows
> some signs of reading, and one corner is bent a little where,
> apparently, someone wasn't paying attention when they put it back
> in the box. Chits, however, are still un-punched. Actually was a
> pretty cool find.
>
> Well, that's it, unless you want my old, beat-up softcover copy of
> 2nd edition that I leave out for reading and use, but I kinda
> doubt anyone would be interested in it, and that'll leave me
> something to read. :)
>
>
> Best regards,
>
> Larry mailto:Kurgan@Fastmail.fm
>
>
>
>
> To Post a message, send it to: dq-rules@eGroups.com
> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
> dq-rules-unsubscribe@eGroups.com
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>

you could also hold a private auction on Ebay

On Aug 15, 2004, at 6:55 PM, Rob wrote:

> It would be helpful if you offered an opening bid price on these.  I'm
> interested, but I have to know how much you are willing to settle
> for...
>
> --Rob
>
> On Sunday, August 15, 2004, at 08:23 AM, Larry wrote:
>
> > Hey guys,
> >
> >
> >     Having some money troubles and am forced to sell off my DQ
> stuff.
> >     Not happy about the idea, but as much as I love the game, the
> fact
> >     is that I really don't have any opportunity to play it anyway,
> and
> >     if I do, I can track everything down again in the future. I'm
> >     planning on putting everything up on eBay, but I wanted to give
> >     the groups here a shot at everything first. I'm broke, but I'm
> >     loyal. :)
> >
> >     Here's what I've got. I'll consider any fair offers.
> >
> >     DragonQuest - original boxed set. Box is shiny, like new, but
> has
> >     a slight bowing to it, and a small area near the top right
> corner
> >     that looks like something was pressed against it in storage.
> >     Contents are mint, like new. Chits are even, amazingly,
> un-punched.
> >
> >     DragonQuest 2nd ed. - hardcover. Virtually perfect condition.
> One
> >     corner has a slight amount of wear (looks like it bumped into
> >     something). Pages are crisp and white, and smell like they were
> >     just printed thanks to being kept sealed in plastic (I keep it
> in
> >     a plastic bag). Took years to find a copy, but I finally found
> one
> >     that had made its way to England, and had it shipped back over.
> In
> >     complete honesty, in 25 years, I've never seen another copy in
> as
> >     good of condition as this one. Definite collector's copy. (I
> just
> >     saw one on eBay that wasn't as clean sell for 85 bucks.
> Amazing.)
> >
> >     DragonQuest Gamemaster's Screen. Still sealed. I believe it's
> for
> >     1st edition. Copyright 1980. Stock #: 331P11.
> >
> >     Arena of Death. New & unused. Cellophane was removed to look at
> >     contents, but otherwise was set on the shelf. Chits un-punched.
> >
> >     The Blade of Allectus (adventure two). Like new. Shows slight
> >     signs of wear along the spine, and there are a few subtle
> markings
> >     on the cover that can be seen by tilting it to the light that
> look
> >     like a few very tiny sprinkles of moisture made contact. Looking
> >     directly at the book you can't see anything, though.
> >
> >     The Enchanted Wood (adventure three). Shiny, like new
> (definitely
> >     un-used). A few very subtle indents from having been looked
> >     through.
> >
> >     Ares magazine. Number 3. Two copies. One in good condition,
> >     complete with game and map. Another spare copy in fair condition
> >     that has had the game removed.
> >
> >     Worldkiller. Boxed game. Not DQ, but I include this because the
> >     rulebook was lost, and was replaced by a copy of Ares number 1,
> >     where the game originally came from. Boxtop has a couple of
> splits
> >     and is bowed. Box bottom is fine. Magazine is intact, but shows
> >     some signs of reading, and one corner is bent a little where,
> >     apparently, someone wasn't paying attention when they put it
> back
> >     in the box. Chits, however, are still un-punched. Actually was a
> >     pretty cool find.
> >
> >     Well, that's it, unless you want my old, beat-up softcover copy
> of
> >     2nd edition that I leave out for reading and use, but I kinda
> >     doubt anyone would be interested in it, and that'll leave me
> >     something to read. :)
> >
> >
> > Best regards,
> >
> >    Larry                       mailto:Kurgan@Fastmail.fm
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > To Post a message, send it to:   dq-rules@eGroups.com
> > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
> > dq-rules-unsubscribe@eGroups.com
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
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--- In dq-rules@yahoogroups.com, Larry <Kurgan@f...> wrote:

> Hey guys,
>
>
> Having some money troubles and am forced to sell off my DQ stuff.
> Not happy about the idea, but as much as I love the game, the fact
> is that I really don't have any opportunity to play it anyway, and
> if I do, I can track everything down again in the future. I'm
> planning on putting everything up on eBay, but I wanted to give
> the groups here a shot at everything first. I'm broke, but I'm
> loyal. :)

I hope your problems will soon be over

> DragonQuest - original boxed set. Box is shiny, like new, but has
> a slight bowing to it, and a small area near the top right corner
> that looks like something was pressed against it in storage.
> Contents are mint, like new. Chits are even, amazingly, un-punched.

Is this 1st edition, if so what do you want for it? I think I've got
some dollars somewhere

David

Hello Rob, everyone,


R> It would be helpful if you offered an opening bid price on these. I'm
R> interested, but I have to know how much you are willing to settle for...

Well, I wasn't looking to break the bank or anything, just wanting
to get whatever someone thought was a fair price. Since I wasn't
sure what individual members would assume in that regard, I was
leaving it open to offers. Still, if it will help, I can try to
give an idea of what I was thinking. I could probably get a lot
more on eBay, but I'd rather see the stuff go to listmembers.


DragonQuest 2nd ed. - hardcover.

-- Best offer =/> $75.

DragonQuest - original boxed set.
DragonQuest Gamemaster's Screen.
Arena of Death.
The Blade of Allectus
The Enchanted Wood
Ares magazine #3. Two copies.
Worldkiller (with Ares #1)

-- Best offer =/> $50 for everything else as a bundle.

Buyer pays actual shipping based on whatever method preferred.
Insurance is at buyer's discretion.

Please make any offers off-list. :)


Best regards,

Larry mailto:Kurgan@Fastmail.fm