>
> This would run completely counter to the overall design of DQ. One of
> the things I love about DQ is that you can drop a brand new character
> into an ongoing campaign and they will be able to participate and
> contribute to the party. Then there is the issue of internal game
> logic. How is it that a character could raise their strength beyond
> (or whatever) beyond the racial max? Surely this would have to involve
> magic or the gods or something.

> > 2. Fatigue for a EN of 25 in the table is 23. Can this be increased
> > above 23? And if so how far above 23?
>
> I would probably allow players to increase FT some additional amount.
> Probably no more than 50% above starting.

> > 5. Physical Beauty characteristic offers a different
> > question. Can it be increased or decreased with experience?
> > <snip> And with his PB of 7 being reduced to below 6
> > (64.1), this can cause a roll on the Fright Table.
>
> I wouldn't allow PB to be changed except through magic or a healer. To
> causes rolls on the fright table is just silly. To adversely affect
> reaction rolls, sure, cause fright in anything other than small
> children, no way.

> I don't know how long the characters in question have been around but
> in the many years of our DQ campaigns no one ever raised a primary
> stat more than 1 or 2 points. Perception - oh yeah but primary stats
> very rarely. There was just never that kind XP to spare. The levels of
> XP that would be required to push a primary stat up from a typical
> starting level to over 25 is pretty extreme.
>
> But that's my take on it.
>
> Phil

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--- In dqn-list@yahoogroups.com, Jason Honhera <albavar@y...> wrote:

There are other points that make your Very valid point about the SP
cost of Dusts even worse. First, to put a target to sleep using
the "Spell of Enchanted Sleep" would be a much better choice for an
Enchanter (with the SP cost of Zero, the same exp multiple, and the
Dust at rank 20 having a shorter range than the spell at Rank 0).
Second, an Alchemists for a lower SP cost can make more effective
Poisons (which might even have better delivery mechanisms). Third
Alchemists poisons don't have any stated duration before they need
to be used. Lastly, It seems with all the downsides to the Dust the
only possitive feature of these Dusts are the target gets to resist
with a reduction of 20 to the Magic Resistance.

With the annual income of a beginning character, these rituals are
economically out of reach. Not one player in our group has ever
considered it worth a Copper until Rank 20 is reached (at that point
all Dusts become FREE). Having to expend 2,100,000 SP to reach Rk 20
makes a character expend about 26 years of income.

Our group adds an additional cost to the "Crystal of Vision" rutual.
The unstated cost in the ritual is the cost of the crystal, and our
group makes these expensive for crystals suitable for use with this
ritual.

I don't believe that the Dusts were ever meant to be that important
to the E&E college. Many of this colleges spells are very effective,
and the low Base Chances reflect the those spells power. The E&E
College's "Spell of Invisability" (with a base chance of 45%) is the
best version of this spell in the game; compare it to the College of
the Minds "Spell of Invisability" with a Base Chance of 15% and
generally being less effective.

Our group considered altering the cost of the Dusts. But settled on
removing the Dust restiction on how long the Dust remains fresh.
After all, No other potion has that kind of restriction.


> __________________________________________________
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> --- In dqn-list@yahoogroups.com, Jason Honhera <albavar@y...>

>

> With the annual income of a beginning character, these rituals are
> economically out of reach. Not one player in our group has ever
> considered it worth a Copper until Rank 20 is reached (at that

> all Dusts become FREE). Having to expend 2,100,000 SP to reach Rk

> makes a character expend about 26 years of income.
>
> > __________________________________________________
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> > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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>
> Am I the only one who chokes at the cost of Sleep Dust and
> Poison Dust in Enchantments and Ensorcelments? These are
> General Knowledge and cost 10,000 SP to make 1 dose of a 1
> shot item that only keeps for 3 weeks?

> Message: 1
> Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 14:59:13 -0000
> From: "dennisnordling" <d.nordling@adelphia.net>
> Subject: Re: Enchanter Dusts
>
> --- In dqn-list@yahoogroups.com, "dennisnordling"
> <d.nordling@a...>
> wrote:
> > --- In dqn-list@yahoogroups.com, Jason Honhera
> <albavar@y...>
> wrote:
> >
> I appologize about my math. The total SP cost to
> reach Rank 20 is
> only 105,000 SP, and just about 1� years income.
>

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I played (very little) Dragonquest with a couple of gaming buddies back in high school (80s) and though we enjoyed the game, our group wasn’t interested in supplanting D&D with this upstart; especially with its high mortality rate. 

 

As a result, my actual playing time with DQ is quite limited.  So limited that I'm only now, 20 years later—having stumbled across this group and a copy of the 2nd ed. rulebook—taking the time to read the magic section.  (When we did play, none of us ever chose to have characters with a Magic Aptitude above 5.)

 

What strikes me now is that some spells have a very low (10% or less) base chance of success and very high exp multipliers (500+).  I realize that this is done in the name of game balance, but unless I’m grossly missing something, the chance of having the spell backfire greatly exceeds the chance of success until one attains ca. Rank 10 and/or somehow achieves a godlike MA. 

 

Because of their high XP multiples, one would have to invest 10’s of thousands of XP before attaining a modest chance of neither pissing off or killing the rest of the party.  It seems that an adept would be wise to spend many, many years accumulating XP on a spell like Meteor Swarm before ever attempting to cast it in a tactical situation. 

 

Have you seasoned players out there found these spells worth the effort, or am I just missing something?  Which of the colleges/spells have proven the most worthwhile?  Which are impractical?  How have y’all modified the rules over the years?

 

Bill

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>Bill,
>
>What you usually see is a player who invests in the low EP cost spells
>until they are Heroes and thus make 3,000 EPs a successful adventure, 50x
>EP per day (if you play with that rule). It actually doesn't take long to
>rank an expensive spell.
>
>As to which colleges are worthwhile, it all depends on what you wish to
>accomplish. If you just want to inflict damage, I would suggest Fire.
>
>Greater Summonings has not been popular in my campaigns, nor has Black
>Magics. A player I've played DQ with for 18 years is just now trying a
>Black Mage.
>
>I've made some modifications, usually after a group discussion.
>
>~Jeffery~
>
>I played (very little) Dragonquest with a couple of gaming buddies back in
>high school (80s) and though we enjoyed the game, our group wasn’t
>interested in supplanting D&D with this upstart; especially with its high
>mortality rate.
>
>
>
>As a result, my actual playing time with DQ is quite limited. So limited
>that I'm only now, 20 years later—having stumbled across this group and a
>copy of the 2nd ed. rulebook—taking the time to read the magic
>section. (When we did play, none of us ever chose to have characters with
>a Magic Aptitude above 5.)
>
>
>
>What strikes me now is that some spells have a very low (10% or less) base
>chance of success and very high exp multipliers (500+). I realize that
>this is done in the name of game balance, but unless I’m grossly missing
>something, the chance of having the spell backfire greatly exceeds the
>chance of success until one attains ca. Rank 10 and/or somehow achieves a
>godlike MA.
>
>
>
>Because of their high XP multiples, one would have to invest 10’s of
>thousands of XP before attaining a modest chance of neither pissing off or
>killing the rest of the party. It seems that an adept would be wise to
>spend many, many years accumulating XP on a spell like Meteor Swarm before
>ever attempting to cast it in a tactical situation.
>
>
>
>Have you seasoned players out there found these spells worth the effort,
>or am I just missing something? Which of the colleges/spells have proven
>the most worthwhile? Which are impractical? How have y’all modified the
>rules over the years?
>
>
>
>Bill
>
>__________________________________________________
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>From: Roz Noz <roznoz@yahoo.com>
>
>Have you seasoned players out there found these spells worth the effort, or
>am I just missing something? Which of the colleges/spells have proven the
>most worthwhile? Which are impractical? How have y�all modified the rules
>over the years?

>
> I played (very little) Dragonquest with a couple of gaming buddies back in
> high school (80s) and though we enjoyed the game, our group wasn’t
> interested in supplanting D&D with this upstart; especially with its high
> mortality rate.
>
>
>
> As a result, my actual playing time with DQ is quite limited. So limited
> that I'm only now, 20 years later—having stumbled across this group and a
> copy of the 2nd ed. rulebook—taking the time to read the magic section.
> (When we did play, none of us ever chose to have characters with a Magic
> Aptitude above 5.)
>
>
>
> What strikes me now is that some spells have a very low (10% or less) base
> chance of success and very high exp multipliers (500+). I realize that
> this is done in the name of game balance, but unless I’m grossly missing
> something, the chance of having the spell backfire greatly exceeds the
> chance of success until one attains ca. Rank 10 and/or somehow achieves a
> godlike MA.
>
>
>
> Because of their high XP multiples, one would have to invest 10’s of
> thousands of XP before attaining a modest chance of neither pissing off or
> killing the rest of the party. It seems that an adept would be wise to
> spend many, many years accumulating XP on a spell like Meteor Swarm before
> ever attempting to cast it in a tactical situation.
>
>
>
> Have you seasoned players out there found these spells worth the effort,
> or am I just missing something? Which of the colleges/spells have proven
> the most worthwhile? Which are impractical? How have y’all modified the
> rules over the years?
>
>
>
> Bill
>
>
>
>
>
> __________________________________________________
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> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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> Except for blindness, deafness and amnesia, none of the results
> are totally
> incapacitating, which is 11% of the results. True, 30% of the
> time there is
> the chance you will affect yourself or one of your companions, this is
> rarely devastating. I do know of two occasions that characters killed
> themselves with Whitefire. Possibly for that reason instant death spells
> have not been popular with my groups, particularly Whirlwind Vortex.

> > Except for blindness, deafness and amnesia, none of the results
> > are totally
> > incapacitating, which is 11% of the results. True, 30% of the
> > time there is
> > the chance you will affect yourself or one of your companions, this is
> > rarely devastating. I do know of two occasions that characters killed
> > themselves with Whitefire. Possibly for that reason instant death

> > have not been popular with my groups, particularly Whirlwind Vortex.
>
> On of the things I did was to switch to a different backfire table. While
> blindness, deafness etc are not too bad I think they remove roleplaying
> opportunities so don't have them at all in my current backfire table.
>
> Mandos
> /s
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

> Have you seasoned players out there found these spells worth the

>

> 1) Check out all the modifiers and manipulate events to make these
> things easier. This is a good option for taking out the major anti-PC
> at the end of a campaign, when the PCs finally take it seriously and
> arrange a trap
>

> In regards to "Modifiers for Aspect are subtracted from rolls making
> backfires impossible in some cases.", in my campaigns it is never

> to backfire. A "00" is automatically a backfire.

> BTW, I always allow players re-rolls for Aspect if they rolled "Life".

> On of the things I did was to switch to a different backfire table.
> While
> blindness, deafness etc are not too bad I think they remove roleplaying
> opportunities so don't have them at all in my current backfire table.

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-------------- Original message --------------

Thanks for the rundown on magic operations, Phil, it's definietly given me some perspective on magic in DQ.  And, if you're not too tired of this topic, I've got another question; you mention that an adept needs to be competent in at least one weapon, how does one do this with the whole cold iron restriction?  Stick with the ol' staff? Drop your sword every time the magic's about to happen?  How do folks out there apply the cold iron rule?

darkislephil <darkislephil@yahoo.com> wrote:

Bill,

In our campaigns magic users learned to be very cautious about using
magic.  They would concentrate on using those spells that had the
higher cast chances initially. If a situation called for a spell with
a high chance of backfire they would do everything the rules allowed
for increasing their cast chances.  Waiting till midnight (or noon),
ritual preparations, big bonfires (fire mages), etc..   If the chance
still wasn't so good they would give it one shot and then make sure
they went up rank for that spell the next chance they got.  (Recall
you have to _attempt_ a spell on an adventure to go up in rank and
only one rank at a time.)

The most significant thing that mages can do is to take advantage of
the Ritual of Investment.  Prior to any adventure they would go on
massive enchanting binges.  Firstly this allows the wielder to cast
the invested spell every round instead of every other round.  Second
the cast chance for the invested spell is that of the caster at the
time of investment so by maximizing any bonuses available at the time
of investment the invested item can have a better cast chance than
would be allowed by spur of the moment casting.  Modifiers for Aspect
are subtracted from rolls making backfires impossible in some cases.

I tried to get 4-5 ranks in Ritual Purification as soon as I could
with my mages.  At R5 if you spend 3 hours at it you gain +3 to your
MA (and thus +3 to all cast chances) and a big boost, 15%, to your
Magic Resistance for 18-45 hours!!  Can make a big difference when you
are making that final assault on the big baddie.

Ritual Spell Preparation offers a big 30% bonus to cast chance if you
spend 10 hours at it.  Really, really need to get that spell off?
That's how you do it.

One of the characters in my campaign was a Life-aspected EE mage.  He
pretty much only cast spells off of items in combat since as soon the
baddies started dying he didn't dare make a cast check.  However he
was also a beastmaster and always kept lots of fast-breeding mammals
like rats and rabbits around the home base.  Only 5% bonus but that is
5% subtracted from the roll.

If the group has a EE mage the Ritual of Enchantment Q-1 from that
college can be a big boost to the entire party.  To a lesser extent
the Spell of Lesser Enchantment G-9 from Earth Magics gives that small
boost to the skills of a party.

At the end of the day though a DQ mage isn't at all like a DnD mage.
No raining down fireballs and lightning bolts with wild abandon.  At
least not without quite a few adventures under your belt.  A DQ mage
damn well better be competent with at least one weapon.  Cuz running
yourself out of Fatigue casting spells is a good way to get
one-shotted by a lucky endurance hit.

Anyway that's my take on it.

    Phil

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>
> Message: 1
> Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 13:24:35 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Roz Noz <roznoz@yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: magic
>
> Thanks for the rundown on magic operations, Phil,
> it's definietly given me some perspective on magic
> in DQ. And, if you're not too tired of this topic,
> I've got another question; you mention that an adept
> needs to be competent in at least one weapon, how
> does one do this with the whole cold iron
> restriction? Stick with the ol' staff? Drop your
> sword every time the magic's about to happen? How
> do folks out there apply the cold iron rule?
>

Thanks for the rundown on magic operations, Phil, it's definietly given me some perspective on magic in DQ.  And, if you're not too tired of this topic, I've got another question; you mention that an adept needs to be competent in at least one weapon, how does one do this with the whole cold iron restriction?  Stick with the ol' staff? Drop your sword every time the magic's about to happen?  How do folks out there apply the cold iron rule?

darkislephil <darkislephil@yahoo.com> wrote:

Bill,

In our campaigns magic users learned to be very cautious about using
magic.  They would concentrate on using those spells that had the
higher cast chances initially. If a situation called for a spell with
a high chance of backfire they would do everything the rules allowed
for increasing their cast chances.  Waiting till midnight (or noon),
ritual preparations, big bonfires (fire mages), etc..   If the chance
still wasn't so good they would give it one shot and then make sure
they went up rank for that spell the next chance they got.  (Recall
you have to _attempt_ a spell on an adventure to go up in rank and
only one rank at a time.)

The most significant thing that mages can do is to take advantage of
the Ritual of Investment.  Prior to any adventure they would go on
massive enchanting binges.  Firstly this allows the wielder to cast
the invested spell every round instead of every other round.  Second
the cast chance for the invested spell is that of the caster at the
time of investment so by maximizing any bonuses available at the time
of investment the invested item can have a better cast chance than
would be allowed by spur of the moment casting.  Modifiers for Aspect
are subtracted from rolls making backfires impossible in some cases.

I tried to get 4-5 ranks in Ritual Purification as soon as I could
with my mages.  At R5 if you spend 3 hours at it you gain +3 to your
MA (and thus +3 to all cast chances) and a big boost, 15%, to your
Magic Resistance for 18-45 hours!!  Can make a big difference when you
are making that final assault on the big baddie.

Ritual Spell Preparation offers a big 30% bonus to cast chance if you
spend 10 hours at it.  Really, really need to get that spell off?
That's how you do it.

One of the characters in my campaign was a Life-aspected EE mage.  He
pretty much only cast spells off of items in combat since as soon the
baddies started dying he didn't dare make a cast check.  However he
was also a beastmaster and always kept lots of fast-breeding mammals
like rats and rabbits around the home base.  Only 5% bonus but that is
5% subtracted from the roll.

If the group has a EE mage the Ritual of Enchantment Q-1 from that
college can be a big boost to the entire party.  To a lesser extent
the Spell of Lesser Enchantment G-9 from Earth Magics gives that small
boost to the skills of a party.

At the end of the day though a DQ mage isn't at all like a DnD mage.
No raining down fireballs and lightning bolts with wild abandon.  At
least not without quite a few adventures under your belt.  A DQ mage
damn well better be competent with at least one weapon.  Cuz running
yourself out of Fatigue casting spells is a good way to get
one-shotted by a lucky endurance hit.

Anyway that's my take on it.

    Phil

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On May 31, 2005, at 7:50 PM, Jason Honhera wrote:

> It's contact with cold iron. A scabbard on the mule works, or a whip,
> or a sling and bullets...  Don't forget bronze as a low cost
> alternative. Even with the damage reduction it is still higher damage
> than most spells.  Once the spells are doing more damage, your weapon
> reliance can taper off.  If you think about it, D&D before 3rd edition
> was the same boat.
>  
> Albavar
>
> Roz Noz <roznoz@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> Thanks for the rundown on magic operations, Phil, it's definietly
>> given me some perspective on magic in DQ.  And, if you're not too
>> tired of this topic, I've got another question; you mention that an
>> adept needs to be competent in at least one weapon, how does one do
>> this with the whole cold iron restriction?  Stick with the ol'
>> staff? Drop your sword every time the magic's about to happen?  How
>> do folks out there apply the cold iron rule?
>>
>> darkislephil <darkislephil@yahoo.com> wrote:Bill,
>>>
>>> In our campaigns magic users learned to be very cautious about using
>>> magic.  They would concentrate on using those spells that had the
>>> higher cast chances initially. If a situation called for a spell with
>>> a high chance of backfire they would do everything the rules allowed
>>> for increasing their cast chances.  Waiting till midnight (or noon),
>>> ritual preparations, big bonfires (fire mages), etc..   If the chance
>>> still wasn't so good they would give it one shot and then make sure
>>> they went up rank for that spell the next chance they got.  (Recall
>>> you have to _attempt_ a spell on an adventure to go up in rank and
>>> only one rank at a time.)
>>>
>>> The most significant thing that mages can do is to take advantage of
>>> the Ritual of Investment.  Prior to any adventure they would go on
>>> massive enchanting bing! es.  Firstly this allows the wielder to cast
>>> the invested spell every round instead of every other round.  Second
>>> the cast chance for the invested spell is that of the caster at the
>>> time of investment so by maximizing any bonuses available at the time
>>> of investment the invested item can have a better cast chance than
>>> would be allowed by spur of the moment casting.  Modifiers for Aspect
>>> are subtracted from rolls making backfires impossible in some cases.
>>>
>>> I tried to get 4-5 ranks in Ritual Purification as soon as I could
>>> with my mages.  At R5 if you spend 3 hours at it you gain +3 to your
>>> MA (and thus +3 to all cast chances) and a big boost, 15%, to your
>>> Magic Resistance for 18-45 hours!!  Can make a big difference when
>>> you
>>> are making that final assault on the big baddie.
>>>
>>> Ritual Spell Preparation offers a big 30% bonus to cast chance if you
>>> spend 10 hours at it.  Really, really need to get that spell off?
>>> ! That's how you do it.
>>>
>>> One of the characters in my campaign was a Life-aspected EE mage.  He
>>> pretty much only cast spells off of items in combat since as soon the
>>> baddies started dying he didn't dare make a cast check.  However he
>>> was also a beastmaster and always kept lots of fast-breeding mammals
>>> like rats and rabbits around the home base.  Only 5% bonus but that
>>> is
>>> 5% subtracted from the roll.
>>>
>>> If the group has a EE mage the Ritual of Enchantment Q-1 from that
>>> college can be a big boost to the entire party.  To a lesser extent
>>> the Spell of Lesser Enchantment G-9 from Earth Magics gives that
>>> small
>>> boost to the skills of a party.
>>>
>>> At the end of the day though a DQ mage isn't at all like a DnD mage.
>>> No raining down fireballs and lightning bolts with wild abandon.  At
>>> least not without quite a few adventures under your belt.  A DQ mage
>>> damn well better be competent with at least one weapon.  Cuz running
>>> yourself out of Fatigue casting spells is a good way to get
>>> one-shotted by a lucky endurance hit.
>>>
>>> Anyway that's my take on it.
>>>
>>>     Phil
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> __________________________________________________
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On May 31, 2005, at 7:50 PM, Jason Honhera wrote:

> It's contact with cold iron. A scabbard on the mule works, or a whip,
> or a sling and bullets... Don't forget bronze as a low cost
> alternative. Even with the damage reduction it is still higher damage
> than most spells. Once the spells are doing more damage, your weapon
> reliance can taper off. If you think about it, D&D before 3rd edition
> was the same boat.
>
> Albavar
>
> Roz Noz <roznoz@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> Thanks for the rundown on magic operations, Phil, it's definietly
>> given me some perspective on magic in DQ. And, if you're not too
>> tired of this topic, I've got another question; you mention that an
>> adept needs to be competent in at least one weapon, how does one do
>> this with the whole cold iron restriction? Stick with the ol'
>> staff? Drop your sword every time the magic's about to happen? How
>> do folks out there apply the cold iron rule?
>>
>> darkislephil <darkislephil@yahoo.com> wrote:Bill,
>>>
>>> In our campaigns magic users learned to be very cautious about using
>>> magic. They would concentrate on using those spells that had the
>>> higher cast chances initially. If a situation called for a spell with
>>> a high chance of backfire they would do everything the rules allowed
>>> for increasing their cast chances. Waiting till midnight (or noon),
>>> ritual preparations, big bonfires (fire mages), etc.. If the chance
>>> still wasn't so good they would give it one shot and then make sure
>>> they went up rank for that spell the next chance they got. (Recall
>>> you have to _attempt_ a spell on an adventure to go up in rank and
>>> only one rank at a time.)
>>>
>>> The most significant thing that mages can do is to take advantage of
>>> the Ritual of Investment. Prior to any adventure they would go on
>>> massive enchanting bing! es. Firstly this allows the wielder to cast
>>> the invested spell every round instead of every other round. Second
>>> the cast chance for the invested spell is that of the caster at the
>>> time of investment so by maximizing any bonuses available at the time
>>> of investment the invested item can have a better cast chance than
>>> would be allowed by spur of the moment casting. Modifiers for Aspect
>>> are subtracted from rolls making backfires impossible in some cases.
>>>
>>> I tried to get 4-5 ranks in Ritual Purification as soon as I could
>>> with my mages. At R5 if you spend 3 hours at it you gain +3 to your
>>> MA (and thus +3 to all cast chances) and a big boost, 15%, to your
>>> Magic Resistance for 18-45 hours!! Can make a big difference when
>>> you
>>> are making that final assault on the big baddie.
>>>
>>> Ritual Spell Preparation offers a big 30% bonus to cast chance if you
>>> spend 10 hours at it. Really, really need to get that spell off?
>>> ! That's how you do it.
>>>
>>> One of the characters in my campaign was a Life-aspected EE mage. He
>>> pretty much only cast spells off of items in combat since as soon the
>>> baddies started dying he didn't dare make a cast check. However he
>>> was also a beastmaster and always kept lots of fast-breeding mammals
>>> like rats and rabbits around the home base. Only 5% bonus but that
>>> is
>>> 5% subtracted from the roll.
>>>
>>> If the group has a EE mage the Ritual of Enchantment Q-1 from that
>>> college can be a big boost to the entire party. To a lesser extent
>>> the Spell of Lesser Enchantment G-9 from Earth Magics gives that
>>> small
>>> boost to the skills of a party.
>>>
>>> At the end of the day though a DQ mage isn't at all like a DnD mage.
>>> No raining down fireballs and lightning bolts with wild abandon. At
>>> least not without quite a few adventures under your belt. A DQ mage
>>> damn well better be competent with at least one weapon. Cuz running
>>> yourself out of Fatigue casting spells is a good way to get
>>> one-shotted by a lucky endurance hit.
>>>
>>> Anyway that's my take on it.
>>>
>>> Phil
>>>
>>>
>>>
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> Thanks for the rundown on magic operations, Phil,
> it's definietly given me some perspective on magic
> in DQ. And, if you're not too tired of this topic,
> I've got another question; you mention that an adept
> needs to be competent in at least one weapon, how
> does one do this with the whole cold iron
> restriction? Stick with the ol' staff? Drop your
> sword every time the magic's about to happen? How
> do folks out there apply the cold iron rule?
>
> darkislephil <darkislephil@yahoo.com> wrote:Bill,
>
> In our campaigns magic users learned to be very
> cautious about using
> magic. They would concentrate on using those spells
> that had the
> higher cast chances initially. If a situation called
> for a spell with
> a high chance of backfire they would do everything
> the rules allowed
> for increasing their cast chances. Waiting till
> midnight (or noon),
> ritual preparations, big bonfires (fire mages),
> etc.. If the chance
> still wasn't so good they would give it one shot and
> then make sure
> they went up rank for that spell the next chance
> they got. (Recall
> you have to _attempt_ a spell on an adventure to go
> up in rank and
> only one rank at a time.)
>
> The most significant thing that mages can do is to
> take advantage of
> the Ritual of Investment. Prior to any adventure
> they would go on
> massive enchanting binges. Firstly this allows the
> wielder to cast
> the invested spell every round instead of every
> other round. Second
> the cast chance for the invested spell is that of
> the caster at the
> time of investment so by maximizing any bonuses
> available at the time
> of investment the invested item can have a better
> cast chance than
> would be allowed by spur of the moment casting.
> Modifiers for Aspect
> are subtracted from rolls making backfires
> impossible in some cases.
>
> I tried to get 4-5 ranks in Ritual Purification as
> soon as I could
> with my mages. At R5 if you spend 3 hours at it you
> gain +3 to your
> MA (and thus +3 to all cast chances) and a big
> boost, 15%, to your
> Magic Resistance for 18-45 hours!! Can make a big
> difference when you
> are making that final assault on the big baddie.
>
> Ritual Spell Preparation offers a big 30% bonus to
> cast chance if you
> spend 10 hours at it. Really, really need to get
> that spell off?
> That's how you do it.
>
> One of the characters in my campaign was a
> Life-aspected EE mage. He
> pretty much only cast spells off of items in combat
> since as soon the
> baddies started dying he didn't dare make a cast
> check. However he
> was also a beastmaster and always kept lots of
> fast-breeding mammals
> like rats and rabbits around the home base. Only 5%
> bonus but that is
> 5% subtracted from the roll.
>
> If the group has a EE mage the Ritual of Enchantment
> Q-1 from that
> college can be a big boost to the entire party. To
> a lesser extent
> the Spell of Lesser Enchantment G-9 from Earth
> Magics gives that small
> boost to the skills of a party.
>
> At the end of the day though a DQ mage isn't at all
> like a DnD mage.
> No raining down fireballs and lightning bolts with
> wild abandon. At
> least not without quite a few adventures under your
> belt. A DQ mage
> damn well better be competent with at least one
> weapon. Cuz running
> yourself out of Fatigue casting spells is a good way
> to get
> one-shotted by a lucky endurance hit.
>
> Anyway that's my take on it.
>
> Phil
>
>
>
>
>
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>While 12.3 says, "If the figure has no prepared weapon, it is equal to
>his modified Agility+Perception.", is not a prepared spell a weapon?

>Granted most spellcasting takes place in an unengaged state and so
>usually doesn't need IV. But sometimes a mage who is preparing a spell
>will end up engaged at the end of that pulse. The mage is engaged
>starting the next pulse so an IV is needed. I use mAG+PC+Rank w/spell
>to give mages a chance to get a spell off before being cut to ribbons.

>How about if a mage has a wand or other casting implement? There I
>just fell back to the mAG+PC base and added in the Rank of the
>Investment Ritual used.
>
>How did your groups handle initiative value for spellcasting? Did you
>just go with the base mAG+PC? If so, do you think that was a good
>idea? That it provided balance perhaps?

> While 12.3 says, "If the figure has no prepared weapon, it is equal to
> his modified Agility+Perception.", is not a prepared spell a weapon?
>
> Granted most spellcasting takes place in an unengaged state and so
> usually doesn't need IV. But sometimes a mage who is preparing a spell
> will end up engaged at the end of that pulse. The mage is engaged
> starting the next pulse so an IV is needed. I use mAG+PC+Rank w/spell
> to give mages a chance to get a spell off before being cut to ribbons.
>
> How about if a mage has a wand or other casting implement? There I
> just fell back to the mAG+PC base and added in the Rank of the
> Investment Ritual used.
>
> How did your groups handle initiative value for spellcasting? Did you
> just go with the base mAG+PC? If so, do you think that was a good
> idea? That it provided balance perhaps?
>
> Phil
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

> A mage without a prepared weapon *should* be at a severe
> disadvantage against an armed foe. Try it yourself sometime:
> give a friend a long stick while you stand within five feet
> of him, empty-handed, and ask him to try and hit you before
> you can finish reciting the Charm of Making (or heck, just
> "Abracadabra," if it's been a while since you watched Excalibur).

> Well, most of the time, our mages would have a weapon
> prepared even if they weren't planning to engage the enemy
> (you know, just in case), so I don't recall it being an issue.

> But in any situation where they didn't have a
> weapon ready (and no ranks in Unarmed Combat, either),
> yeah, we just went by the book. Never seemed like a
> problem to me...

> I don't have IV for spell casting. I literally interpret 27.8,
> "It takes one pulse to prepare a spell as part of the Tactical
> Procedure and another full Pulse to loose the spell."

> > Well, most of the time, our mages would have a weapon
> > prepared even if they weren't planning to engage the enemy
> > (you know, just in case), so I don't recall it being an issue.
>
>Are you saying the mages used their IV with a weapon to determine when
>they cast their spell?

> > But in any situation where they didn't have a
> > weapon ready (and no ranks in Unarmed Combat, either),
> > yeah, we just went by the book. Never seemed like a
> > problem to me...
>
>I don't know Cameron. Unarmed by definition means no weapons so they
>couldn't have a "prepared weapon". No prepared weapon means strictly
>mAG+PC according to the Book. Actually taking 27.8 into account
>probably means that cast spells should always go last in a pulse.
>Sounds like you were playing pretty fast and loose with the rules.
>
>And I always thought you were a by-the-book kinda guy...

> That certainly seems to imply that spellcasting goes off at the end of
> the pulse. Though why they wouldn't have more simply and explicitly
> stated that loosing a spell takes place after all other combat actions
> I don't know.
>
> What if you had two mages that ended up in an engaged state? Adjacent
> hexes. Facing each other. Both prepared a spell the previous pulse.
> They have the same modified Agility and Perception. One is Rank 0
> with his prepared spell and the other Rank 10. Whose spell goes off
> first?
>
> If the more experienced fighter gets the better initiative why
> wouldn't the more experienced mage?

On Jun 12, 2005, at 9:03 PM, Jeffery K. McGonagill wrote:

>> That certainly seems to imply that spellcasting goes off at the
>> end of
>> the pulse. Though why they wouldn't have more simply and explicitly
>> stated that loosing a spell takes place after all other combat
>> actions
>> I don't know.
>>
>> What if you had two mages that ended up in an engaged state?
>> Adjacent
>> hexes. Facing each other. Both prepared a spell the previous pulse.
>> They have the same modified Agility and Perception. One is Rank 0
>> with his prepared spell and the other Rank 10. Whose spell goes off
>> first?
>>
>> If the more experienced fighter gets the better initiative why
>> wouldn't the more experienced mage?
>>
>

> Message: 1
> Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 20:12:28 -0000
> From: "darkislephil" <darkislephil@yahoo.com>
> Subject: Initiative Value for Spellcasting
>
> While 12.3 says, "If the figure has no prepared
> weapon, it is equal to
> his modified Agility+Perception.", is not a prepared
> spell a weapon?
>
> Granted most spellcasting takes place in an
> unengaged state and so
> usually doesn't need IV. But sometimes a mage who is
> preparing a spell
> will end up engaged at the end of that pulse. The
> mage is engaged
> starting the next pulse so an IV is needed. I use
> mAG+PC+Rank w/spell
> to give mages a chance to get a spell off before
> being cut to ribbons.
>
> How about if a mage has a wand or other casting
> implement? There I
> just fell back to the mAG+PC base and added in the
> Rank of the
> Investment Ritual used.
>
> How did your groups handle initiative value for
> spellcasting? Did you
> just go with the base mAG+PC? If so, do you think
> that was a good
> idea? That it provided balance perhaps?
>
> Phil
>

> >Are you saying the mages used their IV with a
> >weapon to determine when
> >they cast their spell?
>
> Of course. Nothing in [12.3] says you have to *use*
> your prepared weapon.

> Read the first two
> sentences of Section 20 and you'll see.

> And I don't read [27.8] as saying that spells are
> loosed after everyone
> else's action in the second Pulse, either. "Another
> full Pulse" simply
> means it takes the entirety of *your* Pulse to loose
> the spell;

> I think it is a valid question. Is this coming up
> often? Or is it
> hypothetical? I like your solution in either case.
>
> JohnC
> On Jun 12, 2005, at 9:03 PM, Jeffery K. McGonagill
> wrote:
>
> >> That certainly seems to imply that spellcasting
> goes off at the
> >> end of
> >> the pulse. Though why they wouldn't have more
> simply and explicitly
> >> stated that loosing a spell takes place after all
> other combat
> >> actions
> >> I don't know.
> >>
> >> What if you had two mages that ended up in an
> engaged state?
> >> Adjacent
> >> hexes. Facing each other. Both prepared a spell
> the previous pulse.
> >> They have the same modified Agility and
> Perception. One is Rank 0
> >> with his prepared spell and the other Rank 10.
> Whose spell goes off
> >> first?
> >>
> >> If the more experienced fighter gets the better
> initiative why
> >> wouldn't the more experienced mage?
> >>
> >
>

> We did however use a different formula. We used Mod
> MD instead of Mod AG and added the RK of the spell

> (but we also devised Speed Factors for spells
> based on Ordinal # and applied those as a minus
> to IV).

> Wands, etc were IV = Mod AG + PC (base). We
> did not include the rank for Rit. Investment...
> we did not feel that having a higher rk in the
> Rit. of Investment should give any better IV.

> We absolutely felt that wands should never be
> better (IV or anything) than the Mage that
> created them...

>From: Phil Wright <darkislephil@yahoo.com>

> > Read the first two
> > sentences of Section 20 and you'll see.
>
>"Any instrument used to inflict damage on a
>figure is called a weapon. Weapons may include
>the figure's hands, claws, talons, feet, teeth,
>breath weapon, etc."
>
>Well that makes it pretty clear then that a prepared
>spell would be classed as a weapon.

> > And I don't read [27.8] as saying that spells are
> > loosed after everyone
> > else's action in the second Pulse, either. "Another
> > full Pulse" simply
> > means it takes the entirety of *your* Pulse to loose
> > the spell;
>
>I agree. That was my reading of it as well. Just
>trying to make a point with a little jest. You have a
>habit of trying to validate your interpretation of the
>rules by ending your commments with "we played by the
>book". Jeffery clearly had a different interpretation
>of [27.8] and yet he was playing by the book as well.

>In the end if the players and the GM are all happy
>with whatever mechanism is chosen that is all that
>matters.

> What if you had two mages that ended up in an engaged state? Adjacent
> hexes. Facing each other. Both prepared a spell the previous pulse.
> They have the same modified Agility and Perception. One is Rank 0
> with his prepared spell and the other Rank 10. Whose spell goes off
> first?

> >"Any instrument used to inflict damage on a
> >figure is called a weapon. Weapons may include
> >the figure's hands, claws, talons, feet, teeth,
> >breath weapon, etc."
> >
> >Well that makes it pretty clear then that a prepared
> >spell would be classed as a weapon.
>
> Actually, it just raises another question: "Is a prepared spell
> an 'instrument'?" I think the better conclusion is that no, it
> is not,

> No offense taken.

> When I point out that my group played "by
> the book," I'm not attempting to claim any moral superiority
> or validate my interpretations of the rules.
> It usually comes up because someone is proposing a "house
> rule" to address some perceived deficiency in the official
> rules--NOT because they have (mis)interpreted a rule, but
> rather because they've simply made something up out of whole
> cloth.

>From: "darkislephil" <darkislephil@yahoo.com>

>I love game mechanics and have hundreds of role-playing games just
>because they had an interesting bit here or there. I like to see
>where they work and where they fall apart. Look at the Assassin
>torture skill. Ack. If an average persons willpower is 15 then an
>Assassin has to be Rank 7 to even have a chance. David Ritchie
>suggested to me that the avg persons stats were 12. But even if the
>avg person is only a 10. The assassin still has to be Rank 5 to have
>a bad chance at interrogation. I would say that this was a rule that
>was never actually playtested. What do you think?

> Message: 3
> Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 17:08:06 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Phil Wright <darkislephil@yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: Initiative Value for Spellcasting
>
> --- Mark D <shadow_weaver13@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > We did however use a different formula. We used
> Mod
> > MD instead of Mod AG and added the RK of the spell
>
> I had considered MD as well as MA but in the end
> went
> with mAG just to keep things simple.

> > (but we also devised Speed Factors for spells
> > based on Ordinal # and applied those as a minus
> > to IV).
>
> Thought about that as well but once again went for
> simple.

> > Wands, etc were IV = Mod AG + PC (base). We
> > did not include the rank for Rit. Investment...
> > we did not feel that having a higher rk in the
> > Rit. of Investment should give any better IV.
>
> And yet it is the Ritual of Investement that
> determines the trigging mechanism/keyword.
> Additionally it isn't necessarily the mage that
> created the item releasing the spell.

> > We absolutely felt that wands should never be
> > better (IV or anything) than the Mage that
> > created them...
>
> Seeing as a mage can only invest at his current
> ability (without some kind of other magic modifying
> that) it is pretty much guaranteed that a wand can
> only be as good as the mage himself. But you seem to
> have a strong opinion about it so I'm guessing that
> some situation must have arisen that to make that
> kind
> of ruling?

> FWIW, I believe the average non-adventuring human is supposed
> to have a stat of 10. The rules say that 15 is average for
> an adventuring human, and that adventurers are about 50% better
> than non-adventurers (or words to that effect; I don't have the
> books in front of me). That seems pretty low to me, frankly;
> 12 might be a better number to use, but "officially" I think
> it's 10.

--- In dqn-list@yahoogroups.com, "Deven" <deven@b...> wrote:
> I'll be heading to the Origins gaming convention in Columbus, Ohio
at the
> end of the month, and was wondering if anyone else on this list was
going.
> There are some DQ sessions being run by Vern Overholt.