Messages in dqn-list group. Page 22 of 80.

Group: dqn-list Message: 1057 From: J. K. Hoffman Date: 8/19/2003
Subject: Re: The Priest Thing
Group: dqn-list Message: 1058 From: dbarrass_2000 Date: 8/20/2003
Subject: Re: The Priest Thing
Group: dqn-list Message: 1059 From: Bruce Probst Date: 8/20/2003
Subject: Re: 1st Edition
Group: dqn-list Message: 1060 From: John M. Kahane Date: 8/20/2003
Subject: Re: JohnK's DQ Website is Back!
Group: dqn-list Message: 1061 From: John M. Kahane Date: 8/20/2003
Subject: Re: 1st Edition
Group: dqn-list Message: 1062 From: John M. Kahane Date: 8/20/2003
Subject: Re: The Priest Thing
Group: dqn-list Message: 1063 From: J. K. Hoffman Date: 8/20/2003
Subject: Re: The Priest Thing
Group: dqn-list Message: 1064 From: John M. Kahane Date: 8/20/2003
Subject: Re: 1st Edition
Group: dqn-list Message: 1065 From: Bruce Probst Date: 8/21/2003
Subject: Re: 1st Edition
Group: dqn-list Message: 1066 From: Don Hawthorne Date: 8/21/2003
Subject: Re: 1st Edition
Group: dqn-list Message: 1067 From: Bruce Probst Date: 8/21/2003
Subject: Re: 1st Edition
Group: dqn-list Message: 1068 From: Greg Walters Date: 8/21/2003
Subject: Re: 1st Edition
Group: dqn-list Message: 1069 From: Greg Walters Date: 8/21/2003
Subject: Re: 1st Edition - Giant APA Solution
Group: dqn-list Message: 1070 From: Don Hawthorne Date: 8/22/2003
Subject: Re: 1st Edition
Group: dqn-list Message: 1071 From: John M. Kahane Date: 8/22/2003
Subject: Re: The Priest Thing
Group: dqn-list Message: 1072 From: John M. Kahane Date: 8/22/2003
Subject: Character Creation EXPs
Group: dqn-list Message: 1073 From: John M. Kahane Date: 8/22/2003
Subject: Re: 1st Edition
Group: dqn-list Message: 1074 From: Don Hawthorne Date: 8/22/2003
Subject: Re: Character Creation EXPs
Group: dqn-list Message: 1075 From: David Vance Date: 8/22/2003
Subject: 1st Ed Boxed Set on eBay
Group: dqn-list Message: 1076 From: gmartinez@medioambiente.gov.ar Date: 8/22/2003
Subject: Re: Character Creation EXPs
Group: dqn-list Message: 1077 From: Don Hawthorne Date: 8/22/2003
Subject: Re: 1st Ed Boxed Set on eBay
Group: dqn-list Message: 1078 From: John M. Kahane Date: 8/22/2003
Subject: JohnK's Priest Skill (Long)
Group: dqn-list Message: 1079 From: Bruce Probst Date: 8/23/2003
Subject: Re: 1st Edition
Group: dqn-list Message: 1080 From: Bruce Probst Date: 8/23/2003
Subject: Re: Character Creation EXPs
Group: dqn-list Message: 1081 From: John M. Kahane Date: 8/23/2003
Subject: Re: Character Creation EXPs
Group: dqn-list Message: 1082 From: Don Hawthorne Date: 8/23/2003
Subject: Re: Character Creation EXPs
Group: dqn-list Message: 1083 From: davis john Date: 8/23/2003
Subject: Re: Character Creation EXPs
Group: dqn-list Message: 1084 From: John M. Kahane Date: 8/24/2003
Subject: Re: Character Creation EXPs
Group: dqn-list Message: 1085 From: John M. Kahane Date: 8/24/2003
Subject: APA to TMR (Was: Re: Re: 1st Edition)
Group: dqn-list Message: 1086 From: John M. Kahane Date: 8/24/2003
Subject: Re: Character Creation EXPs
Group: dqn-list Message: 1087 From: John M. Kahane Date: 8/24/2003
Subject: EXPs for Characters New to the Game (Was: Re: Character Creation EX
Group: dqn-list Message: 1088 From: John M. Kahane Date: 8/24/2003
Subject: Re: Character Creation EXPs
Group: dqn-list Message: 1089 From: Jason Winter Date: 8/24/2003
Subject: Re: EXPs for Characters New to the Game
Group: dqn-list Message: 1090 From: J. K. Hoffman Date: 8/24/2003
Subject: Re: Character Creation EXPs
Group: dqn-list Message: 1091 From: Bruce Probst Date: 8/25/2003
Subject: Re: Character Creation EXPs
Group: dqn-list Message: 1092 From: Bruce Probst Date: 8/25/2003
Subject: Re: Character Creation EXPs
Group: dqn-list Message: 1093 From: dbarrass_2000 Date: 8/25/2003
Subject: Re: Character Creation EXPs
Group: dqn-list Message: 1094 From: J. K. Hoffman Date: 8/25/2003
Subject: Re: Character Creation EXPs
Group: dqn-list Message: 1095 From: J. K. Hoffman Date: 8/25/2003
Subject: Re: Character Creation EXPs
Group: dqn-list Message: 1096 From: Don Hawthorne Date: 8/25/2003
Subject: Re: Character Creation EXPs
Group: dqn-list Message: 1097 From: Don Hawthorne Date: 8/25/2003
Subject: Re: Character Creation EXPs
Group: dqn-list Message: 1098 From: dbarrass_2000 Date: 8/25/2003
Subject: Re: Character Creation EXPs
Group: dqn-list Message: 1099 From: Don Hawthorne Date: 8/25/2003
Subject: Re: Character Creation EXPs
Group: dqn-list Message: 1100 From: Don Hawthorne Date: 8/25/2003
Subject: Re: Character Creation EXPs
Group: dqn-list Message: 1101 From: dbarrass_2000 Date: 8/25/2003
Subject: Re: Character Creation EXPs
Group: dqn-list Message: 1102 From: Don Hawthorne Date: 8/25/2003
Subject: Re: Character Creation EXPs
Group: dqn-list Message: 1103 From: John M. Kahane Date: 8/25/2003
Subject: Queries for the FAQs
Group: dqn-list Message: 1104 From: D. Cameron King Date: 8/25/2003
Subject: Re: Character Creation EXPs
Group: dqn-list Message: 1105 From: D. Cameron King Date: 8/25/2003
Subject: Re: Character Creation EXPs
Group: dqn-list Message: 1106 From: davis john Date: 8/25/2003
Subject: Re: Character Creation EXPs



Group: dqn-list Message: 1057 From: J. K. Hoffman Date: 8/19/2003
Subject: Re: The Priest Thing
dbarrass_2000 wrote:
> Yeah!
> We have been developing something in
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DragonQuestCathedral/
> but something "real" DQ is like gold dust
>
> David

Don't know what you meant by "real", but your Priest work is "real"
enough for me. Damn good work there.

Jim
--
"It's better to light one candle
than to curse the darkness."
-Chinese Proverb and The Motto of the Christophers
http://www.christophers.org
Group: dqn-list Message: 1058 From: dbarrass_2000 Date: 8/20/2003
Subject: Re: The Priest Thing
Thanks, it feels good to have some feedback. I was getting a bit
depressed by the lack of responce.

A version 1.2 is on the way, clarifications and minor rewrites to
include something on dimensions

My feeling is that whatever I produce will not be of the same quality
as SPI's version, just because I cannot devote the time to it that a
professional game designer could. So any info on how SPI thought it
should be is very valuable

David

--- In dqn-list@yahoogroups.com, "J. K. Hoffman" <ryumaou@s...> wrote:
> dbarrass_2000 wrote:
> > Yeah!
> > We have been developing something in
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DragonQuestCathedral/
> > but something "real" DQ is like gold dust
> >
> > David
>
> Don't know what you meant by "real", but your Priest work is "real"
> enough for me. Damn good work there.
>
> Jim
> --
> "It's better to light one candle
> than to curse the darkness."
> -Chinese Proverb and The Motto of the Christophers
> http://www.christophers.org
Group: dqn-list Message: 1059 From: Bruce Probst Date: 8/20/2003
Subject: Re: 1st Edition
On Tue, 19 Aug 2003 12:43:10 -0400, "Don Hawthorne"
<ravenglass@earthlink.net> wrote:

>But when I revived the game a few years back, I was about the only person in our group who still liked the APs, so I've let them slide have been playing 2nd Edition ever since.

The trouble was that the AP system, as printed, had a number of serious
flaws, the most notable of which was that Giants moved slower than halflings
(since Giants would routinely have a smaller APA).

The 2nd edition combat system was such an obvious improvement (as well as
being astonishingly elegant in its own right) that our gaming group didn't
hesitate at all to convert our existing DQ campaign immediately.

----------------------------------------------------------------
Bruce Probst bprobst@netspace.net.au ICQ 6563830
Melbourne, Australia MSTie #72759 SCA #80160
"His only crime was being born delicious!"
ASL FAQ http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/mantis/ASLFAQ
Group: dqn-list Message: 1060 From: John M. Kahane Date: 8/20/2003
Subject: Re: JohnK's DQ Website is Back!
Hullo, Don,

In a message of August 14th, 2003, you wrote:

>> I would just like to announce that my set of DRAGONQUEST
>>rpg webpages is back on-line. For those who don't know, the URL
>>remains the same:
>>
>> http://www.comnet.ca/~jkahane/dq/dragonquest.html
>
>Excellent site, John!
>THANK YOU!

Not a problem, Don, and always glad to be of service. :) While I
tend to run some other fantasy systems from time to time, I keep coming
back to the DRAGONQUEST system simply because it's the best and fits
the concept of fantasy that I've had for a long time. I guess the 20+
years of campaign material that I've written up (some of which I've
adapted in the past to other frpgs that I've run) hasn't hurt, either.
:)

As for the DRAGONQUEST web pages, well, what can I say? They're
a labour of love, and I want to thank you for your kind comments. :)

.....I went window shopping, and bought OS/2!

JohnK
e-mail: jkahane@comnet.ca
web page: http://www.comnet.ca/~jkahane
Group: dqn-list Message: 1061 From: John M. Kahane Date: 8/20/2003
Subject: Re: 1st Edition
Hullo, Don,

In a message of Tuesday, August 19th, 2003, you wrote:

>I guess I'm one of the few who actually liked First Edition
>DQ enough to play it extensively.

Well, I actually ran DQ v1 until the 2nd Edition came out, and to
be honest, some of the changes made the game so much easier to run, and
caused less headaches for the players. Mind you, I'll be the first to
admit that I loved the whole Action Points thing, and miss those days
somewhat.

>At the time DQ was released, my gaming buddy was designing
>his own FRP using Action Points and an extremely detailed
>combat system which our group loved -- hey, when you're
>young, you have TIME to play extremely detailed combat
>systems! :-)

Well, I'm no longer young in the sense you mean, but I still love
the "Arena of Death" game from Ares Magazine and I have to admit to
mucking around a bit with the old APA system from time to time. My
players like it, too, but combat tends to drag on when one uses it.

>Then along came DQ and we all switched over; the work
>was already done and our designer friend maintained that he
>liked the way DQ used Action Points better than the method
>he was working on.

Yep, that's the way it always happens. :)

>We played the First Edition with APs for a couple of years,
>even resisting changing over to Second Edition when it
>came out. But when I revived the game a few years back,
>I was about the only person in our group who still liked the APs,
>so I've let them slide have been playing 2nd Edition ever since.

Yeah, I know the feeling... My players have been doing the DQ
thing for some years now, and while a few of them have a soft spot for
the APA system, most of them prefer the TMR mechanics, too. So you
run what works for the players. Besides, wouldn't want to turn players
*off* the DRAGONQUEST system, now would we? :)

.....It's easier to curse the candle than to light the darkness.

JohnK
e-mail: jkahane@comnet.ca
web page: http://www.comnet.ca/~jkahane
Group: dqn-list Message: 1062 From: John M. Kahane Date: 8/20/2003
Subject: Re: The Priest Thing
Hullo, David,

On Tue, 19 Aug 2003 15:52:27 -0000, dbarrass_2000 wrote:

[my own stuff snipped]
>> I suspect that there will be a lot about this version of
>>Priest skill that folks will either really like or really dislike. :)

>Yeah!
>We have been developing something in
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DragonQuestCathedral/
>but something "real" DQ is like gold dust

I didn't know about the DQ Cathedral area on Yahoo until about
two hours before I wrote this message, as I saw a mention of it in a
post by JohnR, where he provided the links to all the DQ forums on
Yahoo. The Priest skill that I've got written up is not "real DQ" in
the sense that it is based on what I remember on the skill that was in
the manuscript that I read, and as such, I suspect that most folks will
be able to take it or leave it for what it is - an attempt to re-create
from memory what I had seen of the Priest skill in that manuscript.
It's certainly not canon at all. I do hope that people will like it,
but am prepared for the flack that will follow. :)

Meanwhile, I've seen a couple of other attempts at Priest skill
that just didn't appeal to me at all. From what I understood way back
when, Priest skill was not meant to emulate the clerical abilities
found in D&D and the other rpgs of that time. Just my take on things,
and my 2 cf.

.....What do you call thirteen witches in a hot-tub? A self-cleaning coven!

JohnK
e-mail: jkahane@comnet.ca
web page: http://www.comnet.ca/~jkahane
Group: dqn-list Message: 1063 From: J. K. Hoffman Date: 8/20/2003
Subject: Re: The Priest Thing
John M. Kahane wrote:
> I didn't know about the DQ Cathedral area on Yahoo until about
> two hours before I wrote this message, as I saw a mention of it in a
> post by JohnR, where he provided the links to all the DQ forums on
> Yahoo. The Priest skill that I've got written up is not "real DQ" in
> the sense that it is based on what I remember on the skill that was in
> the manuscript that I read, and as such, I suspect that most folks will
> be able to take it or leave it for what it is - an attempt to re-create
> from memory what I had seen of the Priest skill in that manuscript.
> It's certainly not canon at all. I do hope that people will like it,
> but am prepared for the flack that will follow. :)

I think there's room for everyone who loves DQ. And *everyone's*
efforts are appreciated.

> Meanwhile, I've seen a couple of other attempts at Priest skill
> that just didn't appeal to me at all. From what I understood way back
> when, Priest skill was not meant to emulate the clerical abilities
> found in D&D and the other rpgs of that time. Just my take on things,
> and my 2 cf.

Then you might want to take a look at the Priest skills and the
religious magic described in the DQ Cathedral. I think their separation
was done more than adequately. In fact, that was one of the things I
liked about it. The skills allowed for both non-magic and magic priests.
Remember, "cleric" just described a member of the clergy until D&D got
hold of it!

Cheers!
Jim
--
"It's better to light one candle
than to curse the darkness."
-Chinese Proverb and The Motto of the Christophers
http://www.christophers.org
Group: dqn-list Message: 1064 From: John M. Kahane Date: 8/20/2003
Subject: Re: 1st Edition
Hullo, Bruce,

On Wed, 20 Aug 2003 18:47:00 +1000, Bruce Probst wrote:

>>But when I revived the game a few years back, I was about
>>the only person in our group who still liked the APs, so I've
>>let them slide have been playing 2nd Edition ever since.
>
>The trouble was that the AP system, as printed, had a number
>of serious flaws, the most notable of which was that Giants
>moved slower than halflings (since Giants would routinely have
>a smaller APA).

Ah, it's so nice to see that someone else actually saw this little
problem, among others, that the APA system suffered from. Still, you
had to love it at the time. :)

>The 2nd edition combat system was such an obvious
>improvement (as well as being astonishingly elegant in its
>own right) that our gaming group didn't hesitate at all to
>convert our existing DQ campaign immediately.

No, nor did mine...even if there wasn't any information on
converting APs to TMR at the time, although I seem to recall that it
did appear in one of the scenarios that came out from SPI. Mind you,
my gaming group re-created their characters using the 2nd Edition
system at the time, so TMR was recalculated anyway...

.....Cunning and deceit will serve a man better than force. (Machiavelli)

JohnK
e-mail: jkahane@comnet.ca
web page: http://www.comnet.ca/~jkahane
Group: dqn-list Message: 1065 From: Bruce Probst Date: 8/21/2003
Subject: Re: 1st Edition
On Wed, 20 Aug 2003 09:12:49 -0400, "John M. Kahane" <jkahane@comnet.ca>
wrote:

> No, nor did mine...even if there wasn't any information on
>converting APs to TMR at the time, although I seem to recall that it
>did appear in one of the scenarios that came out from SPI.

Convert? What did you need to convert? TMR = Movement Rate/50. (This is
stated explicitly in "How To Read The Monster Descriptions".)

Admittedly, apparently not everyone has grasped this, as I've seen
"third-party" DQ monsters that had TMR values wildly at odds with their
listed movement rate.

For humanoid NPCs you just use the AG/TMR chart.

----------------------------------------------------------------
Bruce Probst bprobst@netspace.net.au ICQ 6563830
Melbourne, Australia MSTie #72759 SCA #80160
"His only crime was being born delicious!"
ASL FAQ http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/mantis/ASLFAQ
Group: dqn-list Message: 1066 From: Don Hawthorne Date: 8/21/2003
Subject: Re: 1st Edition
Now that's an interesting point; what I could never undestand was why a movement rate was necessary if you already had TMR data on a creature. I guess for strategic moves? That seemed a bit obsessive to me, but then I'm from the "storyteller" school of strategic movement; if it needs to get there, it's fast enough to do so. It's when the Tactical Stage kicks in that I break out the rivets for the hard and fast adherence to details.
Just me, of course; can't let players get bored, but also can't let 'em get sloppy.
Don
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, August 21, 2003 1:44 AM
Subject: Re: [DQN-list] Re: 1st Edition

On Wed, 20 Aug 2003 09:12:49 -0400, "John M. Kahane" <jkahane@comnet.ca>
wrote:

>      No, nor did mine...even if there wasn't any information on
>converting APs to TMR at the time, although I seem to recall that it
>did appear in one of the scenarios that came out from SPI.

Convert?  What did you need to convert?  TMR = Movement Rate/50.  (This is
stated explicitly in "How To Read The Monster Descriptions".)

Admittedly, apparently not everyone has grasped this, as I've seen
"third-party" DQ monsters that had TMR values wildly at odds with their
listed movement rate.

For humanoid NPCs you just use the AG/TMR chart.

----------------------------------------------------------------
Bruce Probst              bprobst@netspace.net.au    ICQ 6563830
Melbourne, Australia      MSTie #72759  SCA #80160
"His only crime was being born delicious!"
ASL FAQ              http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/mantis/ASLFAQ



Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
Group: dqn-list Message: 1067 From: Bruce Probst Date: 8/21/2003
Subject: Re: 1st Edition
On Thu, 21 Aug 2003 08:28:29 -0400, "Don Hawthorne"
<ravenglass@earthlink.net> wrote:

>Now that's an interesting point; what I could never undestand was why a movement rate was necessary if you already had TMR data on a creature.

You forget; the Movement Rate was there in 1st edition, when it was (for all
reasonable purposes) impossible to convert APA into "strategic movement".
(For example, if you used APA, hobbits would outstrip giants in overland
movement. APA also used to represent for some creatures a general
"quickness" of actions that didn't translate directly into "how fast does it
move".)

From 2nd edition, they worked out how to use the Movement Rate (already
known) and translate it into a figure also useful on the Combat Display.
The change from 10-second Rounds with a variable number of Pulses into
5-second Pulses simplified all the procedures, and any creatures with
unusually high AG or special attacks (thus giving them more than the usual
"1 action per Pulse") were covered with specific rules.

----------------------------------------------------------------
Bruce Probst bprobst@netspace.net.au ICQ 6563830
Melbourne, Australia MSTie #72759 SCA #80160
"Rock and roll Martian."
ASL FAQ http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/mantis/ASLFAQ
Group: dqn-list Message: 1068 From: Greg Walters Date: 8/21/2003
Subject: Re: 1st Edition
I think I can agree &/or identify with most of what has been said by
people who played 1st edition when that is all there was.

1st Ed was all that I had, even for a few years after 2nd Ed came out
(I had no idea that it did!).

Even after getting a copy (hard cover, from Flying Buffalo in
Arizona when I was going to college - back in about 1984) we'd still
use 1st edition for on-on-one combats.

And, for the fun of it, to bring in 'experienced' 'Conan' type
characters we'd 'generate' them from the "Arena of Death" game.

In reply to Don, by the way, we used 'overland movement rate'
extensively in the 'chase/wait' stage to avoid a prolonged 1st
edition combat stage. We had more than our share of 'old west shoot
outs' fantasy style (crossbows, bows, & spells in place of rifles,
pistols, & cannon).

Anyway, ya'll may see more 'o my ramblings at the very end of this
posting,

- Greg W.


--- In dqn-list@yahoogroups.com, "Don Hawthorne" <ravenglass@e...>
wrote:
> Now that's an interesting point; what I could never undestand was
why a movement rate was necessary if you already had TMR data on a
creature. I guess for strategic moves? That seemed a bit obsessive to
me, but then I'm from the "storyteller" school of strategic movement;
if it needs to get there, it's fast enough to do so. It's when the
Tactical Stage kicks in that I break out the rivets for the hard and
fast adherence to details.
> Just me, of course; can't let players get bored, but also can't
let 'em get sloppy.
> Don
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Bruce Probst
> To: dqn-list@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Thursday, August 21, 2003 1:44 AM
> Subject: Re: [DQN-list] Re: 1st Edition
>
>
> On Wed, 20 Aug 2003 09:12:49 -0400, "John M. Kahane"
<jkahane@c...>
> wrote:
>
> > No, nor did mine...even if there wasn't any information on
> >converting APs to TMR at the time, although I seem to recall
that it
> >did appear in one of the scenarios that came out from SPI.
>
> Convert? What did you need to convert? TMR = Movement Rate/50.
(This is
> stated explicitly in "How To Read The Monster Descriptions".)
>
> Admittedly, apparently not everyone has grasped this, as I've seen
> "third-party" DQ monsters that had TMR values wildly at odds with
their
> listed movement rate.
>
> For humanoid NPCs you just use the AG/TMR chart.
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------
> Bruce Probst bprobst@n... ICQ 6563830
> Melbourne, Australia MSTie #72759 SCA #80160
> "His only crime was being born delicious!"
> ASL FAQ http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/mantis/ASLFAQ
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> ADVERTISEMENT
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
Service.


PS - ramblings for those with nothing to do for the next few
minutes...


(Ah, here I go with the rambling, sigh)... My best friend had a
knack for rolling zero-sometings fairly frequently. He would
sometimes throw the dice across the room in disgust at that (those
dice got to looking pretty sorry after awhile).

Once, the group of characters (about eight players running 10 PCs)
had all gotten almost to the brink of death - except one (I was
almost sorry that I had a Roc show up on the scene - but that
elephant that they war using as a pack mule was too juicy to pass
up). Of course, one character had to get that big buzzard mad at
them. Finally, in a last pinch effort, one of the characters, an
ambidextrous halfling with a bunch of sha-kens brought the bird down
(yeah, I know scale effects to the size of the creature - but, I
figured that 'fate' could kow-tow (sp?) once more to the dented dice)
and the dwarf with the big axe (the group's only actual hero -
anyway, the only surviving PC from the oringinal group) finished it
off.

Giant creatures add quite an element to an adventure.
Group: dqn-list Message: 1069 From: Greg Walters Date: 8/21/2003
Subject: Re: 1st Edition - Giant APA Solution
Oh yeah, I almost forgot to mention this - we had giants have a
separate alocation of APA for movement only. So, their APA they
would used as the rules would normally allow, but the 'extra' APA may
only be used for how many hexes they could move. if they so chose,
they could spend all their regular APA + their movement APA to move
to their realistic full movement rate.

- Greg W.


--- In dqn-list@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Probst <bprobst@n...> wrote:
> On Thu, 21 Aug 2003 08:28:29 -0400, "Don Hawthorne"
> <ravenglass@e...> wrote:
>
> >Now that's an interesting point; what I could never undestand was
why a movement rate was necessary if you already had TMR data on a
creature.
>
> You forget; the Movement Rate was there in 1st edition, when it was
(for all
> reasonable purposes) impossible to convert APA into "strategic
movement".
> (For example, if you used APA, hobbits would outstrip giants in
overland
> movement. APA also used to represent for some creatures a general
> "quickness" of actions that didn't translate directly into "how
fast does it
> move".)
>
> From 2nd edition, they worked out how to use the Movement Rate
(already
> known) and translate it into a figure also useful on the Combat
Display.
> The change from 10-second Rounds with a variable number of Pulses
into
> 5-second Pulses simplified all the procedures, and any creatures
with
> unusually high AG or special attacks (thus giving them more than
the usual
> "1 action per Pulse") were covered with specific rules.
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------
> Bruce Probst bprobst@n... ICQ 6563830
> Melbourne, Australia MSTie #72759 SCA #80160
> "Rock and roll Martian."
> ASL FAQ http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/mantis/ASLFAQ
Group: dqn-list Message: 1070 From: Don Hawthorne Date: 8/22/2003
Subject: Re: 1st Edition
Ah!
Thanks!
:-)
Don
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, August 22, 2003 1:26 AM
Subject: Re: [DQN-list] Re: 1st Edition

On Thu, 21 Aug 2003 08:28:29 -0400, "Don Hawthorne"
<ravenglass@earthlink.net> wrote:

>Now that's an interesting point; what I could never undestand was why a movement rate was necessary if you already had TMR data on a creature.

You forget; the Movement Rate was there in 1st edition, when it was (for all
reasonable purposes) impossible to convert APA into "strategic movement".
(For example, if you used APA, hobbits would outstrip giants in overland
movement.  APA also used to represent for some creatures a general
"quickness" of actions that didn't translate directly into "how fast does it
move".)

From 2nd edition, they worked out how to use the Movement Rate (already
known) and translate it into a figure also useful on the Combat Display.
The change from 10-second Rounds with a variable number of Pulses into
5-second Pulses simplified all the procedures, and any creatures with
unusually high AG or special attacks (thus giving them more than the usual
"1 action per Pulse") were covered with specific rules.

----------------------------------------------------------------
Bruce Probst              bprobst@netspace.net.au    ICQ 6563830
Melbourne, Australia      MSTie #72759  SCA #80160
"Rock and roll Martian."
ASL FAQ              http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/mantis/ASLFAQ



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Group: dqn-list Message: 1071 From: John M. Kahane Date: 8/22/2003
Subject: Re: The Priest Thing
Hullo, Jim,

On Wed, 20 Aug 2003 21:20:21 -0500, J. K. Hoffman wrote:

>> I didn't know about the DQ Cathedral area on Yahoo until about
>> two hours before I wrote this message, as I saw a mention of it in a
>> post by JohnR, where he provided the links to all the DQ forums on
>> Yahoo. The Priest skill that I've got written up is not "real DQ" in
>> the sense that it is based on what I remember on the skill that was in
>> the manuscript that I read, and as such, I suspect that most folks will
>> be able to take it or leave it for what it is - an attempt to re-create
>> from memory what I had seen of the Priest skill in that manuscript.
>> It's certainly not canon at all. I do hope that people will like it,
>> but am prepared for the flack that will follow. :)
>
>I think there's room for everyone who loves DQ. And *everyone's*
>efforts are appreciated.

I agree with you on this point, although sometimes I'm surprised
by just how many fans of the game are still out there. I don't know
how many folks are actually running the game, but I think it would
surprise us all to see that there are more than we think. That said,
the sheer amount of material on the web devoted to DQ is, in itself, a
detriment to some extent for new people to come into the game, simply
because there are so many variants and versions of the same material
out there. Which is, perhaps, also one of the game's strengths. :)

>> Meanwhile, I've seen a couple of other attempts at Priest skill
>> that just didn't appeal to me at all. From what I understood way back
>> when, Priest skill was not meant to emulate the clerical abilities
>> found in D&D and the other rpgs of that time. Just my take on things,
>> and my 2 cf.
>
>Then you might want to take a look at the Priest skills and the
>religious magic described in the DQ Cathedral. I think their separation
>was done more than adequately. In fact, that was one of the things I
>liked about it. The skills allowed for both non-magic and magic priests.
>Remember, "cleric" just described a member of the clergy until D&D got
>hold of it!

I've just subscribed to the DQ Cathedral, and am working my way
through the backlog of archive there. Lots of stuff. The only other
comment I have to make about magic in regards Priests is concerned is
that there was, to the best of my knowledge, an attempt to keep magic
and religion separated in the game. (This comes largely from what I
remember of the majority of the religion supplement-in-writing that I
did see way back when.) Everyone will handle this differently in
their games, I suspect, and some won't even want religion at all to
have any part in it. I think that it's an interesting topic for
discussion, but not something that a lot of folks who run or play the
game worry about all that much.

.....All things done beneath the naked stars are remembered...

JohnK
e-mail: jkahane@comnet.ca
web page: http://www.comnet.ca/~jkahane
Group: dqn-list Message: 1072 From: John M. Kahane Date: 8/22/2003
Subject: Character Creation EXPs
Hullo, folks,

One of the questions that I want to place into the FAQ files is
one that relates to Experience Points alloted when creating characters.
How many Experience Points do folks give out when creating characters
of the various levels (ie., Mercenary, Adventurer, and Hero level)?
Do you treat Mages and non-Mages differently in this matter?

Any thoughts on this are more than welcome. :)

....."So, how was I supposed to know the door was warded? I'm just a Mage, after all."
- Janna Kells, a Mage who should know better

JohnK
e-mail: jkahane@comnet.ca
web page: http://www.comnet.ca/~jkahane
Group: dqn-list Message: 1073 From: John M. Kahane Date: 8/22/2003
Subject: Re: 1st Edition
Hullo, Bruce,

On Thu, 21 Aug 2003 15:44:37 +1000, Bruce Probst wrote:

>> No, nor did mine...even if there wasn't any information on
>>converting APs to TMR at the time, although I seem to recall
>>that it did appear in one of the scenarios that came out from SPI.
>
>Convert? What did you need to convert? TMR = Movement
>Rate/50. (This is stated explicitly in "How To Read The Monster
>Descriptions".)

No, no, no, not converting TMR and Movement Rate, it was the
business of converting 1st Edition Action Point Allowance to TMR of the
2nd Edition. Sorry about the confusion on this. :) As for the
Movement Rate to TMR conversion, that was easy all along I thought.

>Admittedly, apparently not everyone has grasped this, as I've seen
>"third-party" DQ monsters that had TMR values wildly at odds with
>their listed movement rate.

Yeah, makes some of the beastie
contributions...interesting...doesn't it? <g>

....."We're off to see the wizard, because he's sure to have the answer." - Amera
Genthorn, naive adventurer

JohnK
e-mail: jkahane@comnet.ca
web page: http://www.comnet.ca/~jkahane
Group: dqn-list Message: 1074 From: Don Hawthorne Date: 8/22/2003
Subject: Re: Character Creation EXPs
I use the charts in the books.
I run what a friend calls "dirty-nails-fantasy", where PC's start from the ground up. If new characters come along and are overshadowed too severely by much more experienced PC's, I just brevet them a certain number of Ranks and (rarely) Attribute Points to bring them to a more experienced level, though still not to the level of PC's who've been in the game for the duration.
Don H.
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, August 22, 2003 9:21 AM
Subject: [DQN-list] Character Creation EXPs

     Hullo, folks,

     One of the questions that I want to place into the FAQ files is
one that relates to Experience Points alloted when creating characters.
How many Experience Points do folks give out when creating characters
of the various levels (ie., Mercenary, Adventurer, and Hero level)? 
Do you treat Mages and non-Mages differently in this matter?

      Any thoughts on this are more than welcome. :)

....."So, how was I supposed to know the door was warded?  I'm just a Mage, after all."
- Janna Kells, a Mage who should know better

     JohnK
     e-mail:  jkahane@comnet.ca
     web page:  http://www.comnet.ca/~jkahane  




Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
Group: dqn-list Message: 1075 From: David Vance Date: 8/22/2003
Subject: 1st Ed Boxed Set on eBay
Just a heads-up - we had some on the list lamenting passing up the boxed 1st
Edition. It just went up on eBay (not by me - I'm keeping mine, thank you)
and the starting bid is $10.00.


http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3143118622&category=44111
Group: dqn-list Message: 1076 From: gmartinez@medioambiente.gov.ar Date: 8/22/2003
Subject: Re: Character Creation EXPs
In our group, we ask to the players to write a background of his character.
 
Based on this, the "Masters Council" (usually tree or more) analyze the background (no more than 3 pages) and retributed they with ranks in weapons, skills, spells and items, according to the story.
 
That a way to get a guide of the personals matters of all players and penalize then when don't follow their ouw screept.
 
To the masters, we do the same but allways the Council meet without the member to analize. That's a way to give some "transparecy" to the gifts.
 
After that, the character can spend money and experience based in the Council Gifts.
 
That backgrounds are very usefull to masters who want to create an adventure involving characters of the party with real stories about their past.
 
I hope you can get that system an alternative to the traditional one.
 
Before that, we just gived 2000 XP plus the rule's table.
 
Greetings for all.
 
Gabriel.
 
-----Mensaje original-----
De: John M. Kahane [mailto:jkahane@comnet.ca]
Enviado el: Viernes, 22 de Agosto de 2003 10:21 a.m.
Para: DragonQuest RPG Mailing List
Asunto: [DQN-list] Character Creation EXPs

     Hullo, folks,

     One of the questions that I want to place into the FAQ files is
one that relates to Experience Points alloted when creating characters.
How many Experience Points do folks give out when creating characters
of the various levels (ie., Mercenary, Adventurer, and Hero level)? 
Do you treat Mages and non-Mages differently in this matter?

      Any thoughts on this are more than welcome. :)

....."So, how was I supposed to know the door was warded?  I'm just a Mage, after all."
- Janna Kells, a Mage who should know better

     JohnK
     e-mail:  jkahane@comnet.ca
     web page:  http://www.comnet.ca/~jkahane  




Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
Group: dqn-list Message: 1077 From: Don Hawthorne Date: 8/22/2003
Subject: Re: 1st Ed Boxed Set on eBay
First Edition boxed, I got.
It's the SECOND Edition Boxed Set I'm hoping to find.
Don
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, August 22, 2003 12:44 PM
Subject: [DQN-list] 1st Ed Boxed Set on eBay

Just a heads-up - we had some on the list lamenting passing up the boxed 1st
Edition.  It just went up on eBay (not by me - I'm keeping mine, thank you)
and the starting bid is $10.00.


http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3143118622&category=44111


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Group: dqn-list Message: 1078 From: John M. Kahane Date: 8/22/2003
Subject: JohnK's Priest Skill (Long)
Hullo, folks,

Well, I figured that the time has come to post the skill up
to the two lists, and figured that this mailing list would be the
best place to do so. Bear several things in mind. First of all,
this skill has been something that I've been working on...well, let's
just say for a long time. It is based on the article on Priest
skill that was being written for the DQ system way back when the
Religion supplement was well and truly in the works, and has been
done up on the basis of the memory of the material (plus some of the
notes that I did take on the formulae that were being used for
certain parts of the skill). Secondly, it makes the assumption, as
did that original material, that magic and religion were not
considered all that "mutually inclusive", and thus reflects
this...but I still think that it works when dealing with pagan
religions, and I have added a reference to my own version of this
(under section 166.6) that the Colleges of Shamanism, Witchcraft
(which has undergone some revision the last little while to fit
better with some of the precepts of ARCANE WISDOM), and others that
can be taken within the context of the pagan issues should be
permitted if the GM allows. Thirdly, the concept of Miracles is one
that will drive player and GMs who use this version of the Priest
skill somewhat nuts. This is because, when it comes right down to
it, the Miracles and other material on the deities and their areas of
influence and the like were going to be in a separate, large-ish
chapter of their own. Alas and alack, and all that... :( Finally,
the Devoutness secondary characteristic is described in a separate
article that I wrote which was published in the DQN a way back, and
that was the characteristic that was going to be used for the
purposes of devotion, belief, and all.

Take this for what you will, and I expect to see all manner of
debate and the like on this skill. So, fire away... :) Personal
comments can be addressed to me at this e-mail, or my more normal one
of jkahane@comnet.ca. :)

Also, please note the copyright on this...yes, that's how long
it's taken me to finish this "project" up. Now, all I have to do is
the Dreamweaver skill. :)


166. PRIEST

In any religion, there are those individuals who maintain the
knowledge and perform the rituals associated with worship of the
gods.
Occasionally, such individuals may call on their gods for blessings,
to borrow powers, or even perform miracles. The Priest skill
provides
a measure of the character's standing within his chosen Priesthood as
well as his ability to call on the deity of his choice.
This skill is unlike any others, however, in that many abilities
are ultimately left open to the GamesMaster. It is actually to
provide a general framework within which the player and GM can
define the actual potential for being a priest for particular
religions and deities. The player and GM need to work together to
provide some of the details of defining the framework of the
religion: What God? What is its domain? What are its powers?
What does it expect of its followers? What other gods may oppose
it? It is then the GM's responsibility to play the part of the
gods and decide when a character has fulfilled the requirements set
upon him by his deity. Because of this, the GM needs to keep track
of a rating for the bond between the god and the Priest. This
rating, called Devoutness, ranges from 0 to around 100, and will
vary as described in the section of DragonQuest Additional Rules,
section 3.11.
Priests are powerful figures in the world of DragonQuest. Not
only
do they command control of power derived from the power of their god,
but they may occasionally call upon the power of the gods to come to
their aid. They can sanctify an area to protect those within it from
the Powers of Darkness (or Powers of Light, depending), and can
satisfy the souls of the dead to ensure a restful and peaceful death.
The importance of the Priests in the world derives from their
secret knowledge of the proper rituals to placate the gods, and
make them happy. Normal people rely on the priests to protect them
from those elements outside the realms of magic: plagues, famines,
bad luck, and a host of other miscellaneous maladies. The priests
are also responsible for the dead, providing them with safe passage
into the afterlife (whatever that afterlife may be, dependent on
the religion), as well as safe entrance to children into this
world.
There is a price to pay for all this: not all may become priests,
and those that do walk a straight and narrow path, with many pitfalls
and temptations that may lead them astray. They must be willing to
follow orders and instructions from their gods, and sometimes
clerical
superiors, without question or hesitation. Those that fall from
grace
may never again enter the priesthood, and may even be hunted down by
their more pious brethren. But to those that join the priesthood,
the
choice is not one they regret.

[166.1] A character who wishes to take the priest skill must meet the
minimum requirement in certain Characteristics.
A character who wishes to take the priest skill must meet certain
minimums in characteristics related to the ability. A priest must
have a Willpower of at least 18 and a Devoutness of at least 25.
If the character's Willpower or Devoutness are below the minimum
values needed, the character expends one-quarter extra the
Experience Points necessary to progress Ranks. If the character's
Willpower is 24 or better, the character only expends
three-quarters the Experience Points to progress Ranks. If the
character has a Devoutness of greater than 60, the character
expends three-quarters the Experience Points to progress Ranks.
These modifiers are cumulative.

[166.2] A priest does not need to achieve Rank with any additional
languages, but certain priestly functions require extra language
Ranks.
While a priest is not required to have any extra language skills,
it is suggested that the priest be familiar with the Spoken form of
the Religious Common language at Rank 8, and the written form of the
Religious Common language at Rank 7.
In addition, it is suggested that for a priest to rise above Rank
5, he must speak and read/write an extra two languages of his choice
(preferably related to the area in which he serves), and that to rise
above Rank 8, the priest must speak and read/write an additional two
languages of his choice.

[166.3] As a priest progresses through the ranks of the priesthood,
he
has a Knowledge Rank that increases through time and effort.
Each priest has a Knowledge Rank, abbreviated KR, that he gains
when he enters the priesthood, and which rises over the course of
time. A priest's Knowledge Rank is equal to one-half his Priest
skill
Rank, rounded down.
While Devoutness (DV) represents the extent to which a priest
believes in his deity, Knowledge Rank (KR) reflects the extent to
which the priest is familiar with the rituals, behaviours, knowledge,
and other aspects of worship of the deity in question. In addition,
Knowledge Rank is used to determine certain abilities of the priest,
and is also used to incite Miracles, create holy (or unholy) objects
and items, and to enable the priest to live his life in a monastic
fashion. Each of the uses of Knowledge Rank (KR) is detailed below
in
the appropriate sections.
It should be noted that while Knowledge Rank begins at a value
equal to one-half the Priest's Rank, rounded down, it rises and falls
independently of the Priest Rank once the character enters play.
There are various circumstances and situations that raise and
increase
Knowledge Rank. Note that it can never be increased through the use
of Experience Points.
If the priest does not meet the standards set forth for the
worship
of the deity in question (see below, Section 166.15, but this can
include regular prayers, vows, acts of worship or devotion,
sacrifice,
etc.), the Knowledge Rank of the priest is reduced by one for each
week that he does not obey these standards. If the priest does
something or performs an act which is particularly beneficial to the
deity, either performing an act for the deity or advancing the state
of the deity's worship, increase the Knowledge Rank by one point. If
the priest does something that goes against the creed or beliefs of
the deity in question, reduce the Knowledge Rank by 1 to 3 points,
and
reduce the character's Devoutness by at least 1 to 5 points. The
Knowledge Rank of the priest is also reduced by one for each
successful use of the priest of an ability which draws on the deity's
power.
If the priest character's Knowledge Rank is reduced below zero
(0),
the deity in question should punish the priest in some fashion. This
may simply take the form of reducing the character's Priest Rank, or
it may take the form of a Minor or Major Curse. If the deity's wrath
is truly terrible, it could result in the deity smiting the character
from existence.
Note that the priest cannot raise his Knowledge Rank if the
character's Priest Rank is not equal to or exceeds the character's
desired KR value.

[166.4] A priest must choose a specific deity whom he worships, and
receives bonuses to perform skills related to the deity's area of
influence.
A priest must choose one of the gods or goddesses (hereafter
called
deities) to worship, as noted under the Devoutness (DV)
characteristic. A character who chooses to be a priest may not
worship more than one deity, and thus may not have multiple
Devoutness
ratings.
The character receives a bonus to their uses of any abilities or
skills that are directly related to the area of influence of the
deity. The bonus to skills is equal to +(2 per Priest Rank)%. If
the
priest does not have the skill in question, this will not give the
priest Rank in the skill, but will increase their success chances.
Furthermore, weapons and weapon categories receive a bonus of +1 per
Priest Rank)% to the appropriate Strike Chances.

[166.5] Priests are typically addressed by titles, according to their
Rank.
As a priest character progresses through the ranks of their
priesthood, they are accorded certain titles to accompany their rank.
These titles are reflected according to the Rank the priest has
achieved as noted below:

Rank 0-2: Initiate, Novice
Rank 3-4: Acolyte, Brother, Sister
Rank 4-7: Priest, Father, Mother, Deacon
Rank 8: High Priest, High Priestess, Your Worship, Bishop
Rank 10: Arch Priest, Arch Priestess, Pope, etc.

[166.6] A priest may not become an Adept of any of the Colleges of
Magic, with the exception of White Magics or Black Magics.
A priest may not become an Adept or Mage of any of the Colleges of
Magic except for being a White Mage or a Black Mage. In order to
qualify for the taking of a College of Magic, the character must
still
meet the requirements of the College in terms of Magical Aptitude
(MA)
and any other requirements as deemed necessary by the GM.
In the event that the priest chooses to be an Adept of the College
of White Magics or Black Magics, the character derives a bonus to
their abilities to cast spells from the College under their deity's
influence. The Priest may add (Priest Rank x 2)% to their Cast
Chances with spells from the appropriate College.

[166.7] When a priest achieves Rank 2, the character must determine
their Calling within the ranks of the priesthood.
As a general rule, the Calling of a priest character should be
determined in association with their particular skills. For example,
an archivist would need to be fluent in reading/writing several
languages, as well as having the Scribe Skill (see Section 169). An
administrator would have the Steward Skill (see Section 170). In
some
religious orders, the position of Healer would possibly be
appropriate. Some religions may have prophets and seers, for whom
Astrologer Skill would be appropriate. Priesthoods, notably monastic
orders, often require the use of various craft skills (see Craftsman
Skill, section 156) or domestic skills (for example, cooking,
carpentry, sewing, and gardening). Orators and those who are
preachers would place an emphasis on speaking skills along with
perhaps some Troubador or Courtesan Skills, since part of their tasks
are to obtain converts. Such Callings are, of course, dependent on
the nature of the particular religion of which the priest is a part.
The GamesMaster and the player must agree on the particular skills
needed for the character's Calling, and Rank in the Priest skill can
never exceed rank in those skills by more than 2.

[166.8] Once a priest achieves Rank 4, he may begin to lead certain
traditional ceremonies.
Once the priest character achieves Rank 4, 6, and again at 8, he
may begin to lead certain traditional ceremonies. The ceremonies
that
can be led are to be determined by the player and the GamesMaster
together, based upon the tenets and beliefs of each individual
religion. Some guidelines are provided below.
The Rank 4 ceremonies should include those which are private,
frequent, and that have a low impact on the followers of the faith,
and which may also be somewhat tedious (and this is why the higher
Ranked priests delegate them).
Rank 6 ceremonies should be those which are higher profile, public
rituals. These will typically involve hundreds of followers,
occasionally high-ranking members of society who would take offense
at
being forced to mingle with lower Rank priests, and the like.
Rank 8 ceremonies are those rituals that are vital to the
religion.
Rank 10 ceremonies are those which, for whatever reason or tenet,
can only be performed by the High Priest or leading religious leader
of the religion in question.
In all cases noted above, the Base Chance for the priest to lead a
private ceremony is equal to [20 + (WPx2) + (KRx3) + (� Priest
Rank)]%.

[166.9] Once a priest achieves Rank 6, he may begin to lead
traditional public ceremonies.
Once the priest character achieves Rank 6, he may begin to lead
certain traditional public ceremonies. The ceremonies that can be
led
are to be determined by the player and the GamesMaster together,
based
on the tenets and beliefs of each individual religion. Some
guidelines are provided below.
The priest character cannot, however, lead ceremonies which are
traditionally left to particular ranks of the priesthood. For
instance, some religions have ceremonies which can only be performed
by the High Priest of Priestess of the priesthood. The nature of any
such ceremonies is dependent on the nature of the deity to whom the
ceremony is dedicated, and should be determined by the GM. Note that
having a comprehensive list of ceremonies is not needed or even
advised. It is quite acceptable that, in a given situation, the
player may ask the GM, "It seems like there should be an applicable
ceremony for my Priest." (This gives the player a chance to really
stick it to the GM. Conversely, it gives the GM a chance to really
make the player character work for their deity and their religion.)
In all cases noted above, the Base Chance for the priest to lead a
public ceremony is equal to [30 + (WPx2) + (KRx3) + (Priest Rank)]%.

[166.10] A priest may attempt to convert other characters and being
to
become followers of their patron deity.
While the majority of individuals have a very strong religious
stance and set of beliefs, one of the true strengths of priests is
their ability to convert others to their religion and to the worship
of their deity. This is not, however, a simple task.
A priest can attempt to convert a number of beings equal to his
[(Priest Rank x 2) + (KR)] at any one time. The attempt to convert a
character or a congregation to another deity's worship takes at least
2 hours (-2 minutes per Rank). The Base Chance of converting a
character to the worship of the priest's deity is equal to [(Priest
Rank x 2) + (KRx3) + (WP of Priest - WP of target) + (Troubador or
Courtesan Rank/2)]%. The GM may add any other modifiers that she
sees
fit, although language might be one of the deciding factors in this
whole endeavour.

[166.11] A priest may bless or curse characters and beings as he sees
fit, but has certain strictures to doing so.
A priest is capable of blessing or cursing individuals and groups
in such fashions as the GamesMaster deems suitable for the deity in
question. Note that the blessing or curse in question can take any
form desired by the priest. Examples might include, "May the God of
War give you righteous bravery to strike at your foes" (which might
result in a bonus to the target's Willpower or Military Scientist
Skill), or "May you be blinded by your greed" (which might result in
the target character going blind, or perhaps being cursed to go blind
when he sees something that he desires). Note that characters
blessed
or cursed by a priest do not receive a Magical Resistance roll to the
effect in question. The only thing which may moderate or mitigate
the
target character's being affected by the blessing or curse is their
Devoutness, and which deities they worship. This moderation of the
severity of the blessing or curse is left as an exercise to the
GamesMaster and her players.
As a general rule, the blessed or cursed being will receive a
bonus
or penalty of (Priest Rank x 2)% to whatever set of circumstances are
affected by the blessing or curse in question. The GamesMaster may
rule that a blessing or curse is not appropriate because of the
manner
in which it is phrased or due to the nature of the deity the
character
worships. Furthermore, each blessing or curse the priest lays on a
target reduces his Knowledge Rank (KR) by 1 point.

[166.12] A priest may call upon his deity for divine inspiration and
guidance.
There are times when a priest will find himself at a loss for
direction in his life, and at these times, the priest may turn to
their deity for guidance. Through some combination of ritual,
prayer,
and sacrifice, the priest may attempt to receive the deity's
attention
in the hopes of Divine Inspiration.
The Base Chance for a priest to receive successful Divine
Inspiration is equal to [(KRx4) + DV)]%. Such an attempt will
require
24 hours (-2 hours per Priest Rank). The GamesMaster should note
that
divine inspiration is often circumspect or even cryptic, and quite
often open to interpretation. Deities tend to have little patience
when those they share their Divine Wisdom with are so obtuse as to
miss its meaning (that is, Divine Inspiration should not be
meaningless, but it can be obscure or subtle).

[166.13] When a priest has great need, he may be able to call upon
his
deity for a Miracle.
A priest may only call upon their deity to perform a Miracle in a
time of great need. This has to be judged by the GM, as Miracles are
not handed out frivolously, and they are not without cost. In
addition, prayers of this sort are not always answered; a typical
response to such questions is usually, "My child, in this may your
faith be tested." The chart below provides some modifiers that will
affect the chance of a Miracle occurring. This being said, the GM
should note that this chart is only a reference, and not a hard and
fast rule.
The Base Chance of a priest receiving a Miracle is 1%. The priest
character may add � his Devoutness (DV) and his Knowledge Rank (KR)
to
this chance of success. A priest attempting a miracle should roll
percentile dice; this die roll may be altered by the following
modifiers:

Situation Modifier

Miracle attempted in this area in the past year -2
Miracle attempted in this area in the past six
months -5
Miracle attempted by this person in the past
year +2
Miracle attempted by this person in the past
six months -2
Area is a high mana area -(Mana x 3)
Area is a Place of Power -4
Area is Magic consecrated ground -10
Area is consecrated to other deity -5
Area is consecrated to own deity +5
High Holy Day of the Power supplicated -5
In a temple devoted to the deity supplicated +5
Supplicant has demonic ties (deals with Demons
often, travels with a Black Magician or
Greater Summoner, has been granted a boon
by a demon, etc.) -15
Supplicant has not been faithful -10
Supplicant has prayed in the last hour +1
Per week the supplicant spends in meditation +2
Supplicant has a selfless request +2
Supplicant has a selfish request -5
For every Rank in Priest Skill +1
Supplicant is on a holy Geas -5
Supplicant is under attack -3

Note that the request for a Miracle is not one that is open to
further discussion. There are no deals or negotiating that take
place
- either the deity grants the Miracle, or doesn't. An unmodified
result of "01" will always succeed. If a "100" or greater is rolled,
something other than the intended deity is contacted; it is up to the
GM to determine the results of this (a demon may appear as if called
by the Call Master Spell (Black Magics, G-14, pg. 62), or perhaps a
rival deity hears and grants a boon to the supplicant's enemies,
etc.).
Assume deities to be masters of all forms of abilities and the
like
that duplicate Magic within their own sphere of influence, and they
are Rank 60 in all Skills. They could cast a spell, heal those in
need, grant divine power to shoot lightning from the supplicant's
head, or do whatever else the GM feels is appropriate to the
situation
at hand and the deity in question. Resistance rolls to the effects
of
abilities used by deities (such as duplicating magical effects) may
either not be allowed at all (for example, in the case where the God
of Winds uses the winds for some feat or effect, or the God of
Thieves
wishes to hide something) or can be made with a -20 penalty (in such
a
case where the GM determines that the deity does something that is
equivalent to a spell with an MA of around 300, about Rank 50 with
the
"spell," and casts for triple or quadruple effect). Perhaps an
avatar
is summoned, with incredulous characteristics (in the 30s or so) and
obscenely high Ranks (Giant Club at Rank 16, for example).
It is important to bear in mind that, unlike other fantasy
roleplaying games where Miracles are commonplace and such terms as
"clerics" are used, Miracles in the DragonQuest RPG are meant to make
people stand in awe, to be awestruck by the effects of the Miracle in
question. While Miracles are not bound by specific rules - the GM
has
complete control over these - they do follow certain forms. For
example, a character who falls off a 150-foot cliff and prays for a
Miracle, lands hard and walks away from it. This is not a Miracle in
the Priest rules offered here; the character landing, and breaking
their bones, and surviving the fall is the Miracle in this case. The
nature of Miracles are left up to the discretion of the GamesMaster,
and the GM should apply a positive or negative modifier to the
Success
Chance, depending on how she feels the Miracle in question "fits"
with
what is being offered here.
It should also be noted that a successful use of the Priest skill
to invoke a Miracle only results in the deity taking a favourable
interest in the immediate concerns of the supplicant; this means that
the deity may require some sort of service or favour from the
supplicant, at the GM's discretion.

[166.14] A priest is able to create or imbue the essence of his deity
into items or objects, and thus create divine items.
A priest is capable, with the aid of his deity, of creating
objects
that are imbued with the spirit or essence of the deity in question.
The items thus created are often referred to as Holy or Unholy items
and objects. A priest could imbue an object with the essence of his
deity, such that it could be a weapon that is effective against
specific forces or targets, to imbue water with the ability to strike
down the Undead or some force aligned opposite to the deity in
question (thus, an Earth deity's priest can create an object that can
do extra damage or protect against the forces of Air), or can even
repel the Undead. Note that the priest does not create the item
itself, but imbues an item with a holiness or unholiness that he
invokes into the item on behalf of his deity.
When a priest attempts to create such a holy or unholy item, the
priest has a Base Chance equal to [(MDx2) + (KRx4)]%. The priest
requires 24 hours (-1 hour per Priest Rank) to create such an item,
although complex items and the like may take longer at the GM's
discretion. The item is treated as having an ability equal to �
(Priest KR) for whatever purpose the item was intended, although a
special success is treated as giving it the full KR, and a grievous
success is treated as giving it the ability at (KR x 1.5). Thus, a
Rank 4 Priest with Knowledge Rank (KR) at 8 who attempts to create
holy water that will damage Undead, will do +4 damage to the Lesser
Undead and +4 damage to the Greater Undead. A sword that is designed
to function against Air-based beings created by a Priest with
Knowledge Rank (KR) 8 would inflict +4 damage to creatures or
entities
of Air.

[166.15] A priest must adhere to a set of guidelines regarding his
behaviour as it pertains to his deity and his religion.
All priests must pray every day to their deity for a period of no
less than � (Knowledge Rank + 1) hours. This time can be broken up
into periods throughout the day, although most religions have set
times when prayers and devotions are conducted. If the priest fails
to do so, see the notes in section 166.3 on Knowledge Ranks. In
addition, the priest will lose all abilities and powers granted by
the
Priest skill, and suffer a penalty of -10% to all Base Chances that
involve the use of their priestly abilities, due to the lack of
divine
support they normally receive when using these abilities.
Priests must also adhere to a strict set of rules that all priests
of their religion must follow; some examples might include chastity
(no sex), celibacy (no marriage), no meat, must never draw blood,
must
pray facing east, must never cut hair, must go bald, must not kill
specific creatures sacred to the deity, cannot speak, must tithe
wealth to the religion followed (usually some 10%), cannot learn
specific skills (such as Assassins in the case of the followers of
Justice, or perhaps Navigator in the case of devotees of Earth,
although they would be permitted Orienteering skill), must not use
metallic objects, cannot refuse certain requests, cannot lie, etc.
The GamesMaster should devise a set of restrictions for each
character
wishing to learn the Priest skill, based on the specific deity they
choose to worship. Failure to comply with these strictures results
in
the same penalty as if the priest had failed to pray; however, in
these cases, the priest will suffer the penalties for at least a
number of days equal to his (Devoutness - Priest Rank), possibly
longer, depending on the nature of the transgression and the will of
the deity.
Blatant actions against the strictures of the deity may result in
a
loss of Rank in Priest skill and/or Knowledge Rank or even a geas.

[166.16] A priest of a given religion must usually engage in monastic
behaviour for part of a given period of time, usually in years.
As a general rule, priestly orders are somewhat monastic- or
sisterhood- oriented in their nature, and require the priest to take
a
monastic pilgrimage to strengthen their faith, maintain their belief
in the priest's deity, and to rededicate themselves to the deity in
question. However, not all religious orders are monastic or require
this. This should be decided by the GamesMaster and the player,
depending on the nature of the deity and religion in question.
A priest of a monastic order is usually required to spend up to
[30
+ (Priest Rank x 2) + KR] days in a monastic setting, worshipping
their deity and re-dedicating themselves to the deity in question
once
every (KR - 1) years. Some priests spend even more time on these
retreats, simply because they are so spiritually fulfilling.
If a priest fails to spend the amount of necessary time in a
monastic environment, his spiritual beliefs gradually give way to a
more worldly set of values, and the priest loses 5 Ranks in Priest
skill and a corresponding drop of 3 Knowledge Ranks. When the priest
does decide to fulfill his monastic retreat obligations, the priest
must spend an extra (Priest Rank + KR)2 weeks in the monastic worship
and solitude.

[166.17] The social position and status of the priest character has
certain advantages and disadvantages.
A priest is generally revered and respected by the people in the
area in which they live and work (although not always by the
nobility)
within their own culture. In those cases where the GamesMaster feels
it is appropriate, the priest may receive a bonus of (Rankx2)% to his
reaction rolls. Conversely, in cases where the priest is most
unwelcome (for example, a priest of the deity of Justice who is
arbitrating in the Thieves' Guildhall), the priest suffers a penalty
of (Rankx2)% to his reaction rolls. In some cases, the reaction roll
is to be altered even if the priest's identity is a secret - the
priest simply carries an aura of the divine which affects those
around
him.

[166.18] A priest may be called upon by their patron deity to perform
a quest or other similar service.
The deities do not tend to just give their blessings and a portion
of their power to their priests and servants, and usually expect some
service in return. Once per season, the GamesMaster should roll to
determine if the priest's deity calls upon him to perform a service.
The chance of this happening is equal to the character's (Priest
Rank)%. It can be assumed that the deity of the character in
question
has at least Rank (D10+50) with the equivalent of the Geas ability.
If the character is contacted, and even attempts to resist the
service
or geas of the deity (in a manner deemed suitable by the GM, of
course), he will lose all his Ranks with Priest skill (with that
deity, at least). Quests handed down in this fashion are not
necessarily dangerous, but could be tests of faith. The higher the
Rank of the priest, the more likely the geas or quest is to be of a
somewhat perilous nature.

[166.19] A priest must pay [150 + (Rank x 200)] Silver Pennies per
year for the necessary supplies and tools needed for the basic
religious rituals and the like each year.
As a general rule, this would include ceremonial garb, books and
scrolls, minor artifacts (for example, crucifix, staves, amulets,
symbols of the deity), incense and the like.
If the priest fails to pay this yearly cost, the character's Rank
with the skill is reduced by two Ranks below the actual Rank he has
with the skill. If the character does not pay the fees for two
consecutive years, his Priest Rank is permanently reduced by one.
Note the reduction in Priest Rank automatically causes a reduction of
1 to 3 points in Knowledge Rank (KR) that the priest may have.

-----
Copyright (c) 1983, 1984, 1986, 1991, 1992, 2001 John M. Kahane

... Diamond (n.): A lump of coal that made good under pressure.

JohnK
from the Lap of OS/2
johnk-thinkpad@comnet.ca
http://www.comnet.ca/~jkahane
Group: dqn-list Message: 1079 From: Bruce Probst Date: 8/23/2003
Subject: Re: 1st Edition
On Fri, 22 Aug 2003 09:18:44 -0400, "John M. Kahane" <jkahane@comnet.ca>
wrote:

> No, no, no, not converting TMR and Movement Rate, it was the
>business of converting 1st Edition Action Point Allowance to TMR of the
>2nd Edition.

Still not following you, sorry. In 1st edition my character with AG of x
had an APA of y. In 2nd edition my AG of x gives me a TMR of z. What did
you need to "convert"? APA couldn't be changed independently of AG so it
was always a "fixed" value ("fixed" in its relationship to AG, that is,
unlike e.g., FT, which is not "fixed" to EN once play begins).

----------------------------------------------------------------
Bruce Probst bprobst@netspace.net.au ICQ 6563830
Melbourne, Australia MSTie #72759 SCA #80160
"Rock and roll Martian."
ASL FAQ http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/mantis/ASLFAQ
Group: dqn-list Message: 1080 From: Bruce Probst Date: 8/23/2003
Subject: Re: Character Creation EXPs
On Fri, 22 Aug 2003 09:21:06 -0400, "John M. Kahane" <jkahane@comnet.ca>
wrote:

> One of the questions that I want to place into the FAQ files is
>one that relates to Experience Points alloted when creating characters.
> How many Experience Points do folks give out when creating characters
>of the various levels (ie., Mercenary, Adventurer, and Hero level)?

Not sure I'm following you. I never permitted character creation of
higher-than-mercenary level, so beginning characters always got the "same"
amount of XP (used the same table to roll them, that is).

>Do you treat Mages and non-Mages differently in this matter?

Most assuredly not. I always believed that anyone who thought mages and
non-mages should get different amounts of XP didn't understand the game
system properly. (There was that article in "Dragon", wasn't there, about
the guy who claimed that non-mages should get a bonus 1000 XP or something
like that? Grr, that made me so mad when I read it!)

----------------------------------------------------------------
Bruce Probst bprobst@netspace.net.au ICQ 6563830
Melbourne, Australia MSTie #72759 SCA #80160
"Rock and roll Martian."
ASL FAQ http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/mantis/ASLFAQ
Group: dqn-list Message: 1081 From: John M. Kahane Date: 8/23/2003
Subject: Re: Character Creation EXPs
Hullo, Don,

In a message of Friday, August 22nd, 2003, you wrote,

>> One of the questions that I want to place into the FAQ files is
>>one that relates to Experience Points alloted when creating characters.
>>How many Experience Points do folks give out when creating characters
>>of the various levels (ie., Mercenary, Adventurer, and Hero level)?
>>Do you treat Mages and non-Mages differently in this matter?
>
>I use the charts in the books.

Ah, Don, I don't mean the costs for the skills and the like as
noted on the EP charts at the back of the book. What I meant was how
many Experience Points do you give the player to create the character,
using the EP Cost charts at the back of the book?

>I run what a friend calls "dirty-nails-fantasy", where PC's start
>from the ground up.

Yep, that's pretty much my approach as well, although I once
started the DQ campaign off with high level Adventurer characters.
Ran it as a five or six session campaign to see what it would be like.
:)

>If new characters come along and are overshadowed too
>severely by much more experienced PC's, I just brevet
>them a certain number of Ranks and (rarely) Attribute Points
>to bring them to a more experienced level, though still not
>to the level of PC's who've been in the game for the duration.

But see, this is where questions start to come up. How many Ranks
do you assign them? On what basis do you assign the Ranks? Why
aren't they playing new characters, from scratch as well? See this is
where some of the really neat questions start to get asked.

.....That which is never attempted, never transpires. (Jack Vance)

JohnK
e-mail: jkahane@comnet.ca
web page: http://www.comnet.ca/~jkahane
Group: dqn-list Message: 1082 From: Don Hawthorne Date: 8/23/2003
Subject: Re: Character Creation EXPs
Hey, John:
    I meant I give starting characters the Experience as provided by the charts in 8.5 of the Character Generation system.
    As for how many Ranks, I don't really base it on anything except  whether or not they even want a bonus. Most players don't, and in DQ it isn't as necessary as in some other games; a new character has as much chance of rolling 01 as an experienced one, after all.
If it seems like a starting bonus is wanted, I'll generally let them have 5 Ranks to put anywhere they like, but no more than 3 Ranks in any one thing, and maybe two Attribute points. All this is offered and done AFTER the character is fully generated, so nobody gets to design a character who's STR "just happens" to be 2 points too low for their weapon. Likewise, they can only put bnus Ranks into a weapon they already have at game's start.
    Actually, I do this sort of thing most often after a long period of down time between games. F'rinstance, I just moved, which put our campaign on hiatus for almost four months. I use the real-world calendar for a game calendar (more or less) so I gave the players a break and told them that they had been training in the interim and achieved either 3 Ranks (max of 2 in any one skill) OR one attribute point. It was a way to let everyone know how much I appreciated their being willing to come back to their old characters after such a long time, and thank them for telling me how much they wanted to play again.
    Plus, some of my players are new to RPGs, and only one is conversant with the DQ experience system. For some people, so much number crunching can be less fun than for others, and it gives them a break now and then and keeps the game more fun than work. Besides, you know how players can be...
    "Hmmm... I only need three more Experience Point to buy my next Rank in Broadsword... I go out into the alley and cut a rat in two."
  :-)
Don ("Slayer of the Rat Horde of Ambleberg")
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, August 22, 2003 9:38 PM
Subject: Re: [DQN-list] Character Creation EXPs

     Hullo, Don,

In a message of Friday, August 22nd, 2003, you wrote,

>>     One of the questions that I want to place into the FAQ files is
>>one that relates to Experience Points alloted when creating characters.
>>How many Experience Points do folks give out when creating characters
>>of the various levels (ie., Mercenary, Adventurer, and Hero level)? 
>>Do you treat Mages and non-Mages differently in this matter?
>
>I use the charts in the books.

     Ah, Don, I don't mean the costs for the skills and the like as
noted on the EP charts at the back of the book.  What I meant was how
many Experience Points do you give the player to create the character,
using the EP Cost charts at the back of the book?

>I run what a friend calls "dirty-nails-fantasy", where PC's start
>from the ground up.

     Yep, that's pretty much my approach as well, although I once
started the DQ campaign off with high level Adventurer characters. 
Ran it as a five or six session campaign to see what it would be like.
:)

>If new characters come along and are overshadowed too
>severely by much more experienced PC's, I just brevet
>them a certain number of Ranks and (rarely) Attribute Points
>to bring them to a more experienced level, though still not
>to the level of PC's who've been in the game for the duration.

     But see, this is where questions start to come up.  How many Ranks
do you assign them?  On what basis do you assign the Ranks?   Why
aren't they playing new characters, from scratch as well?   See this is
where some of the really neat questions start to get asked.

.....That which is never attempted, never transpires. (Jack Vance)

     JohnK
     e-mail:  jkahane@comnet.ca
     web page:  http://www.comnet.ca/~jkahane  




Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
Group: dqn-list Message: 1083 From: davis john Date: 8/23/2003
Subject: Re: Character Creation EXPs
New campaign wiht fresh characters are always started from scratch. If
someone new joins, wishes a different character as they arent getting on
with theirs, or someone dies usually start them about 10-20% xp behind.
Everyone keeps a running total of xp spent so not hard to do.

JohnD

Another recent returnee to the game....

_________________________________________________________________
On the move? Get Hotmail on your mobile phone http://www.msn.co.uk/msnmobile
Group: dqn-list Message: 1084 From: John M. Kahane Date: 8/24/2003
Subject: Re: Character Creation EXPs
Hullo, Gabriel,

In a message of Friday, August 22nd, 2003, you wrote:

>> One of the questions that I want to place into the FAQ
>>files is one that relates to Experience Points alloted when
>>creating characters. How many Experience Points do folks
>>give out when creating characters of the various levels (ie.,
>>Mercenary, Adventurer, and Hero level)? Do you treat
>>Mages and non-Mages differently in this matter?
>
>In our group, we ask to the players to write a background
>of his character.

I suspect that most players write out backgrounds for their
characters. Usually, the background is done after the character is
generated, or while the player is creating the character to rationalise
and provide more depth on why a given skill or whatever was chosen, or
how a background fits in.

>Based on this, the "Masters Council" (usually tree or more)
>analyze the background (no more than 3 pages) and retributed
>they with ranks in weapons, skills, spells and items, according
>to the story.

Yes, this seems like a good alternative. :)

>That a way to get a guide of the personals matters of all
>players and penalize then when don't follow their ouw screept.

The key here becomes what kinds of words, phrases, and the like
serve as a guideline of how many Ranks to give the character in a given
skill or ability?

>Before that, we just gived 2000 XP plus the rule's table.

Hmm, so the 2,000 XPs would be for the basic Mercenary character,
right? :)

.....Sleep (n.): The fleeting moment just before the alarm goes off.

JohnK
e-mail: jkahane@comnet.ca
web page: http://www.comnet.ca/~jkahane
Group: dqn-list Message: 1085 From: John M. Kahane Date: 8/24/2003
Subject: APA to TMR (Was: Re: Re: 1st Edition)
Hullo, Bruce,

On Sat, 23 Aug 2003 17:06:28 +1000, Bruce Probst wrote:

>> No, no, no, not converting TMR and Movement Rate, it was the
>>business of converting 1st Edition Action Point Allowance to TMR of the
>>2nd Edition.
>
>Still not following you, sorry. In 1st edition my character with AG of x
>had an APA of y. In 2nd edition my AG of x gives me a TMR of z. What did
>you need to "convert"? APA couldn't be changed independently of AG so it
>was always a "fixed" value ("fixed" in its relationship to AG, that is,
>unlike e.g., FT, which is not "fixed" to EN once play begins).

Sorry, I didn't make myself clear on this. The players didn't want
to re-create their characters using the 2nd Edition rules, they wanted
to strictly convert the APs from 1st Ed. into TMR for 2nd Ed, but there
wasn't a guideline on how to convert the values at that point. (As I
seem to recall that first appeared in an issue of Ares Magazine.) For
some reason, they thought that APA could be changed independently of
AG, that it *wasn't* a fixed value. I managed to come up with a
solution at the time that worked, even if I can't for the life of me
remember it now, but that's what I was talking about. Sorry for the
confusion. :)

.....Act well your part, for there all the honour lies. (Thespis)

JohnK
e-mail: jkahane@comnet.ca
web page: http://www.comnet.ca/~jkahane
Group: dqn-list Message: 1086 From: John M. Kahane Date: 8/24/2003
Subject: Re: Character Creation EXPs
Hullo, Bruce,

On Sat, 23 Aug 2003 17:11:17 +1000, Bruce Probst wrote:

>> One of the questions that I want to place into the FAQ files is
>>one that relates to Experience Points alloted when creating characters.
>> How many Experience Points do folks give out when creating characters
>>of the various levels (ie., Mercenary, Adventurer, and Hero level)?
>
>Not sure I'm following you. I never permitted character creation of
>higher-than-mercenary level, so beginning characters always got the
>"same" amount of XP (used the same table to roll them, that is).

Hmm, well the table in DQ, 2nd Edititon, page 11, gives out a
very basic amount of XPs, based on the character's Order of Birth, and
nothing more, since there were no EXP Multipliers given in that
edition. (This seems to have been something that was added in the
Social Status expansion that appeared in Dragon Magazine.) How does
one create a starting character group to take on a total of five orcs,
when the characters will have anywhere between 10 and 250 Experience
Points to allot to abilities and all? That's not a lot, and talk
about your *bare* starting character.

>>Do you treat Mages and non-Mages differently in this matter?
>
>Most assuredly not. I always believed that anyone who thought mages and
>non-mages should get different amounts of XP didn't understand the game
>system properly. (There was that article in "Dragon", wasn't there, about
>the guy who claimed that non-mages should get a bonus 1000 XP or something
>like that? Grr, that made me so mad when I read it!)

Ah, another person after my own heart in this regard, as I always
hated that article (I believe that was "The Warrior Alternative" or
some such?). I agree with you about the allotment of EXPs to mages and
non-mages. Let's see what some of the other folks around here have to
say on the matter...

.....Life is a sexually transmitted, terminal disease.

JohnK
e-mail: jkahane@comnet.ca
web page: http://www.comnet.ca/~jkahane
Group: dqn-list Message: 1087 From: John M. Kahane Date: 8/24/2003
Subject: EXPs for Characters New to the Game (Was: Re: Character Creation EX
Hullo, JohnD,

On Sat, 23 Aug 2003 20:51:35 +0100, davis john wrote:

>New campaign wiht fresh characters are always started from
>scratch. If someone new joins, wishes a different character
>as they arent getting on with theirs, or someone dies usually
>start them about 10-20% xp behind. Everyone keeps a running
>total of xp spent so not hard to do.

Now, this is another question that can be raised and dealt with in
the FAQ and all. Characters do, unfortunately, die or get replaced
when players leave and new players come into the game, and so the
matter of how many EXPs to generate their characters based on becomes
another issue.

Anyone else want to comment on this?

....."Don't move! Or I'll fill you full of...little yellow bolts of light." -
John Crichton (FS; Pr)

JohnK
e-mail: jkahane@comnet.ca
web page: http://www.comnet.ca/~jkahane
Group: dqn-list Message: 1088 From: John M. Kahane Date: 8/24/2003
Subject: Re: Character Creation EXPs
Hullo, Don,

In a message of August 23rd, 2003, you wrote:

>I meant I give starting characters the Experience as provided
>by the charts in 8.5 of the Character Generation system.

See my previous message to Bruce Probst about this, and my
comments on the matter.

>As for how many Ranks, I don't really base it on anything except
>whether or not they even want a bonus. Most players don't, and in
>DQ it isn't as necessary as in some other games; a new character
>has as much chance of rolling 01 as an experienced one, after all.

This is certainly true, but the players can't buy very many Ranks
with skills or weapons given the basic EXPs awarded from DQ 8.5.
(Assuming that one is using just the bare bones rules to do this.)

>If it seems like a starting bonus is wanted, I'll generally let them have
>5 Ranks to put anywhere they like, but no more than 3 Ranks in any
>one thing, and maybe two Attribute points.

Do you place an kind of other limitations in this regard?

>All this is offered and done AFTER the character is fully generated,
>so nobody gets to design a character who's STR "just happens" to
>be 2 points too low for their weapon.

Ah, okay, that does clarify one thing.

>Likewise, they can only put bnus Ranks into a weapon they
>already have at game's start.

Okay, that's the second clarification to the above. Makes sense.
:)

> Plus, some of my players are new to RPGs, and only
>one is conversant with the DQ experience system. For some
>people, so much number crunching can be less fun than for
>others, and it gives them a break now and then and keeps
>the game more fun than work. Besides, you know how players
>can be...

Yep, yep, I do. :) The number crunching element of DRAGONQUEST
is the one thing that a lot of players really don't like about the
game, but they forget that DQ was created during the time of and by a
company that dealt with the wargamer mentality, so designing it as they
did made sense at the time. The amazing thing is that the rules stand
up so well, even after all these years. :)

.....We do not remember days; we remember moments. (Cesare Pavese)

JohnK
e-mail: jkahane@comnet.ca
web page: http://www.comnet.ca/~jkahane
Group: dqn-list Message: 1089 From: Jason Winter Date: 8/24/2003
Subject: Re: EXPs for Characters New to the Game
At 08:32 AM 8/24/2003, you wrote:
> Hullo, JohnD,
>
>On Sat, 23 Aug 2003 20:51:35 +0100, davis john wrote:
>
>>New campaign wiht fresh characters are always started from
>>scratch. If someone new joins, wishes a different character
>>as they arent getting on with theirs, or someone dies usually
>>start them about 10-20% xp behind. Everyone keeps a running
>>total of xp spent so not hard to do.
>
> Now, this is another question that can be raised and dealt with in
>the FAQ and all. Characters do, unfortunately, die or get replaced
>when players leave and new players come into the game, and so the
>matter of how many EXPs to generate their characters based on becomes
>another issue.
>
> Anyone else want to comment on this?


In my campaign, characters replaced after a death come in with 75% of the
exp the character that died had (we call keep track of exp, so this is no
big deal). A new character coming in to an ongoing campaign starts with
75% of the exp of the character with the least exp already playing in the
campaign. I've been playing this forever and it has worked out very well.




Jason Winter
Alarian@direcway.com
http://www.darkrealms.com/~alarian/
Group: dqn-list Message: 1090 From: J. K. Hoffman Date: 8/24/2003
Subject: Re: Character Creation EXPs
John M. Kahane wrote:
> Hmm, well the table in DQ, 2nd Edititon, page 11, gives out a
> very basic amount of XPs, based on the character's Order of Birth, and
> nothing more, since there were no EXP Multipliers given in that
> edition. (This seems to have been something that was added in the
> Social Status expansion that appeared in Dragon Magazine.) How does
> one create a starting character group to take on a total of five orcs,
> when the characters will have anywhere between 10 and 250 Experience
> Points to allot to abilities and all? That's not a lot, and talk
> about your *bare* starting character.
>
>
>>>Do you treat Mages and non-Mages differently in this matter?
>>
>>Most assuredly not. I always believed that anyone who thought mages and
>>non-mages should get different amounts of XP didn't understand the game
>>system properly. (There was that article in "Dragon", wasn't there, about
>>the guy who claimed that non-mages should get a bonus 1000 XP or something
>>like that? Grr, that made me so mad when I read it!)
>
>
> Ah, another person after my own heart in this regard, as I always
> hated that article (I believe that was "The Warrior Alternative" or
> some such?). I agree with you about the allotment of EXPs to mages and
> non-mages. Let's see what some of the other folks around here have to
> say on the matter...
>

Hmm, okay, I'm going to have to go ahead and disagree with you both on
this one.
The "Warrior Alternative" article was based on a simple idea, namely,
that the time it takes to learn the basics of magic are worth something.
It follows that if one spends that time another way, one should have
something to show for it. As the article states, "suppose that, while a
character's classmates are busy with their spells and potions, he
decides to go a different route." So, what you all are saying is that
learning a spell costs nothing in time or experience? That goes against
the spirit of what the DragonQuest rules were meant to do, namely
"...that any character from the pages of fantasy literature can be
re-created (in game terms) without causing aberrations in the game
system."(DQ 2E, Introduction, page iv) Isn't the naive, young
spell-caster, who has no skills, outside their magic, a staple of
fantasy literature? I'd say it is, and, for reference, try "With A
Single Spell" by Lawrence Watt-Evans.
Now, I'll grant that the EXP values may be a little off kilter, but the
idea is sound. Also, it encourages a kind of balance. After all, based
on rule 8.7 "The player may want to equip his character with armor,
shield, and weapon (see 18.1, 17.5, and 20.2), choose a college of magic
for his character (see 34), choose skills for his character (see 8.6 and
VII) and any abilities afforded by the adventure rules (see IX)." So,
based on that, why would anyone not be an adept? Why not give someone
who wants to make, say a Grey Mouser-type character a reason to do so?
Otherwise, I can easily see a campaign filled with Elrics!
Personally, I see the ideas laid out in "The Warrior Alternative" as a
kind of balancing of the system that was over-looked in playtesting.

Cheers!
Jim
P.S. How nice to have something to discuss here! It's been a while.
--
"It's better to light one candle
than to curse the darkness."
-Chinese Proverb and The Motto of the Christophers
http://www.christophers.org
Group: dqn-list Message: 1091 From: Bruce Probst Date: 8/25/2003
Subject: Re: Character Creation EXPs
On Sun, 24 Aug 2003 09:21:22 -0400, "John M. Kahane" <jkahane@comnet.ca>
wrote:

> Hmm, well the table in DQ, 2nd Edititon, page 11, gives out a
>very basic amount of XPs, based on the character's Order of Birth, and
>nothing more, since there were no EXP Multipliers given in that
>edition. (This seems to have been something that was added in the
>Social Status expansion that appeared in Dragon Magazine.) How does
>one create a starting character group to take on a total of five orcs,
>when the characters will have anywhere between 10 and 250 Experience
>Points to allot to abilities and all? That's not a lot, and talk
>about your *bare* starting character.

Well ... yeah. But I had a whole different character-background system in
place, which gave (amongst other things) Ranks in various stuff for free, so
it wasn't really an issue for me.

What I meant to say was that I didn't treat starting characters any
differently, no matter what level the rest of the party was at.

----------------------------------------------------------------
Bruce Probst bprobst@netspace.net.au ICQ 6563830
Melbourne, Australia MSTie #72759 SCA #80160
"Rock and roll Martian."
ASL FAQ http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/mantis/ASLFAQ
Group: dqn-list Message: 1092 From: Bruce Probst Date: 8/25/2003
Subject: Re: Character Creation EXPs
On Sun, 24 Aug 2003 11:47:12 -0500, "J. K. Hoffman" <ryumaou@sbcglobal.net>
wrote:

>Hmm, okay, I'm going to have to go ahead and disagree with you both on
>this one.
>The "Warrior Alternative" article was based on a simple idea, namely,
>that the time it takes to learn the basics of magic are worth something.

That's the fault in the argument. In game terms, it's not.

>So, what you all are saying is that
>learning a spell costs nothing in time or experience?

No. What we're saying is that having one character be a mage is not a good
game-reason to shower a non-mage with bucketloads of unearned experience.
It assumes, amongst other things, that the beginning mage is in some way
"superior" in training and abilities to a beginning non-mage, which is
simply not true; a beginning mage almost always has to make compromises and
allowances in their adventuring career, that will (in my experience, both as
a player and a GM) lead to a more difficult life than that of the non-mage.

Furthermore, the argument falls down when you consider that some beginning
mages know considerably more spells and rituals than others; also, that the
spells and rituals of some beginning mages are considerably more useful in
general adventuring than those of others. I haven't seen a "free XP for
beginning non-mages" system that attempts to take into account just what it
is that the beginning mage has learnt, which in my mind puts a huge question
mark over the whole endeavour.

>Now, I'll grant that the EXP values may be a little off kilter, but the
>idea is sound.

No, the idea comes from a profound misunderstanding of DQ mages. Sorry.

>Also, it encourages a kind of balance.

Exactly the opposite -- become a mage and get saddled with all the problems
that beginning mages have, or become a non-mage and get free XP! Whee!

>Personally, I see the ideas laid out in "The Warrior Alternative" as a
>kind of balancing of the system that was over-looked in playtesting.

No, it was written by someone who (apparently) had little to no experience
in playing the actual game as written.

----------------------------------------------------------------
Bruce Probst bprobst@netspace.net.au ICQ 6563830
Melbourne, Australia MSTie #72759 SCA #80160
"Rock and roll Martian."
ASL FAQ http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/mantis/ASLFAQ
Group: dqn-list Message: 1093 From: dbarrass_2000 Date: 8/25/2003
Subject: Re: Character Creation EXPs
> No. What we're saying is that having one character be a mage is
not a good
> game-reason to shower a non-mage with bucketloads of unearned
experience.
> It assumes, amongst other things, that the beginning mage is in
some way
> "superior" in training and abilities to a beginning non-mage, which
is
> simply not true; a beginning mage almost always has to make
compromises and
> allowances in their adventuring career, that will (in my
experience, both as
> a player and a GM) lead to a more difficult life than that of the
non-mage.

Mages get talents and all General Knowledge Spells and Rituals at
rank 0 for free. This is powerful. Where's the ballance in that? I
do allow non adepts an ep bonus, but I don't follow the warior
alternative, I listen to their character description and build the
character with them, if they need a skill they don't have the eps for
I give them it. Only very minor changes are allowed.

What do you do if a non mage wants to learn spells later?

> Furthermore, the argument falls down when you consider that some
beginning
> mages know considerably more spells and rituals than others; also,
that the
> spells and rituals of some beginning mages are considerably more
useful in
> general adventuring than those of others. I haven't seen a "free
XP for
> beginning non-mages" system that attempts to take into account just
what it
> is that the beginning mage has learnt, which in my mind puts a huge
question
> mark over the whole endeavour.
>
> >Now, I'll grant that the EXP values may be a little off kilter,
but the
> >idea is sound.
>
> No, the idea comes from a profound misunderstanding of DQ mages.
Sorry.
>
> >Also, it encourages a kind of balance.
>
> Exactly the opposite -- become a mage and get saddled with all the
problems
> that beginning mages have, or become a non-mage and get free XP!
Whee!
>
> >Personally, I see the ideas laid out in "The Warrior Alternative"
as a
> >kind of balancing of the system that was over-looked in
playtesting.
>
> No, it was written by someone who (apparently) had little to no
experience
> in playing the actual game as written.

General point: don't forget that you can buy one skill at 10th cost
when building a new character, this makes the begining Ep award a
little less restrictive

David
Group: dqn-list Message: 1094 From: J. K. Hoffman Date: 8/25/2003
Subject: Re: Character Creation EXPs
dbarrass_2000 wrote:
> Mages get talents and all General Knowledge Spells and Rituals at
> rank 0 for free. This is powerful. Where's the ballance in that? I
> do allow non adepts an ep bonus, but I don't follow the warior
> alternative, I listen to their character description and build the
> character with them, if they need a skill they don't have the eps for
> I give them it. Only very minor changes are allowed.
>
> What do you do if a non mage wants to learn spells later?

Bingo! *That* was my point. There is, in fact, *per the rules as
written*, an advantage to starting a character as a mage, but none for
having a "mundane" character. I also agree that the "Warrior
Alternative" is a little too free with the EXP. But, something to
balance out the inequity seems reasonable.

>
> General point: don't forget that you can buy one skill at 10th cost
> when building a new character, this makes the begining Ep award a
> little less restrictive
>
> David

True enough, but I still see little incentive, other than general
maturity of players (and when did you see that last in an RPG
session!?!), to have a non-mage. So, I think that some kind of balance
should be allowed.

Cheers!
Jim
--
"It's better to light one candle
than to curse the darkness."
-Chinese Proverb and The Motto of the Christophers
http://www.christophers.org
Group: dqn-list Message: 1095 From: J. K. Hoffman Date: 8/25/2003
Subject: Re: Character Creation EXPs
Bruce Probst wrote:
> On Sun, 24 Aug 2003 11:47:12 -0500, "J. K. Hoffman" <ryumaou@sbcglobal.net>
> wrote:
>
>
>>Hmm, okay, I'm going to have to go ahead and disagree with you both on
>>this one.
>>The "Warrior Alternative" article was based on a simple idea, namely,
>>that the time it takes to learn the basics of magic are worth something.
>
>
> That's the fault in the argument. In game terms, it's not.

And, that is the fault in your argument. That would mean, in game
terms, that not choosing a college of magic, and getting those benefits,
is a voluntary penalization. What fool would do that?

> No. What we're saying is that having one character be a mage is not a good
> game-reason to shower a non-mage with bucketloads of unearned experience.
> It assumes, amongst other things, that the beginning mage is in some way
> "superior" in training and abilities to a beginning non-mage, which is
> simply not true; a beginning mage almost always has to make compromises and
> allowances in their adventuring career, that will (in my experience, both as
> a player and a GM) lead to a more difficult life than that of the non-mage.
>
> Furthermore, the argument falls down when you consider that some beginning
> mages know considerably more spells and rituals than others; also, that the
> spells and rituals of some beginning mages are considerably more useful in
> general adventuring than those of others. I haven't seen a "free XP for
> beginning non-mages" system that attempts to take into account just what it
> is that the beginning mage has learnt, which in my mind puts a huge question
> mark over the whole endeavour.

No, really, it doesn't. It's not a "free XP" system, either. It's a
trade off of XP for free talents that come with a college of magic. If
I'm not going to get something for not choosing a college of magic, why
shouldn't every DQ character be a mage?

> No, the idea comes from a profound misunderstanding of DQ mages. Sorry.

No, don't be sorry, be more open minded. Think about the argument
first, then make your decision. The idea comes from a thoughtful
consideration of costs vs. benefits of being a mage vs. not being a mage.

> Exactly the opposite -- become a mage and get saddled with all the problems
> that beginning mages have, or become a non-mage and get free XP! Whee!
>

Again, what problems to beginning mages have that every other beginning
characters don't have? Oh, they can't wear armor. Right. That
balances out all the entry-level talents. Whee! It's all balanced out now!

>>Personally, I see the ideas laid out in "The Warrior Alternative" as a
>>kind of balancing of the system that was over-looked in playtesting.
>
>
> No, it was written by someone who (apparently) had little to no experience
> in playing the actual game as written.

Hmm, well, at least you have an opinion about it! ^_^ And, I'm glad it
works in your campaign. I still think that if the system had more play
time, and revisions, the problem would have been addressed.

Cheers!
Jim
--
"It's better to light one candle
than to curse the darkness."
-Chinese Proverb and The Motto of the Christophers
http://www.christophers.org
Group: dqn-list Message: 1096 From: Don Hawthorne Date: 8/25/2003
Subject: Re: Character Creation EXPs
J.K.:
 
Sounds like your game group might have a bad munchkin-infestation problem.
 
     :-)
 
Don
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, August 25, 2003 8:11 AM
Subject: Re: [DQN-list] Re: Character Creation EXPs



dbarrass_2000 wrote:
> Mages get talents and all General Knowledge Spells and Rituals at
> rank 0 for free.  This is powerful.  Where's the ballance in that?  I
> do allow non adepts an ep bonus, but I don't follow the warior
> alternative, I listen to their character description and build the
> character with them, if they need a skill they don't have the eps for
> I give them it.  Only very minor changes are allowed.
>
> What do you do if a non mage wants to learn spells later?

Bingo!  *That* was my point.  There is, in fact, *per the rules as
written*, an advantage to starting a character as a mage, but none for
having a "mundane" character.  I also agree that the "Warrior
Alternative" is a little too free with the EXP.  But, something to
balance out the inequity seems reasonable.

>
> General point: don't forget that you can buy one skill at 10th cost
> when building a new character, this makes the begining Ep award a
> little less restrictive
>
> David

True enough, but I still see little incentive, other than general
maturity of players (and when did you see that last in an RPG
session!?!), to have a non-mage.  So, I think that some kind of balance
should be allowed.

Cheers!
Jim
--
"It's better to light one candle
   than to curse the darkness."
-Chinese Proverb and The Motto of the Christophers
                      http://www.christophers.org



Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
Group: dqn-list Message: 1097 From: Don Hawthorne Date: 8/25/2003
Subject: Re: Character Creation EXPs
Weighing in:
 
 
> What do you do if a non mage wants to learn spells
later?

    I think it depends on what kind of games you run and what kind of players you run them for.
    I always felt that a reasonable justification for the differences in starting characters was this: Adepts start with all those spells and rituals at Rank 0 because they have been preparing for their entire young lives to go out into the world *as* Adepts. Just as warrior adventurers chose their paths because of the attributes they built up during their "youth" (actually character generation); strength, agility and so forth. Besides, an Adept who's always trying to cast spells he only knows at Rank 0 is more of a danger to himself than a warrior with the same level of skills in weapons; there is no "Critical Fumble" table for warriors, but the "Backfire Table" for Adepts can be brutal. And Adepts who go haring off trying to cast "Spell of Frozen Doom" (for example) at Rank 0 just because they *can*, sooner or later become an example of evolution in action.
    My first response when a player who wants to start giving Adept abilities to their experienced warrior -- who has had all the benefits of using non-silvered weapons and wearing non-silvered armor to get them to a high level of experience -- is to ask them to please play RuneQuest. But, if they insist on learning spells, then they can find a College which will take an adult to begin with -- no easy task -- and spend the next eight years serving as an apprentice -- mopping floors, holding books during rituals, cleaning privies, learning humility -- after which they, too, will know all the spells and rituals of their college at Rank 0.
    Of course, all of their *warrior* abilities will have been lost from disuse. So they'll be a starting-character-Adept, and old.
    Or they can petition an Adept of the College of Greater Summonings to ask one of his "buddies" to teach them. And boy, do I love getting players who are *that* greedy! Woo hoo, beholden to demons, that's inspiration for *dozens* of adventures in its own right! By the way, regarding this College, here's a handy Tip for GMs: Don't ever have an Adept of this College in your campaign who is an NPC... INSIST they be player characters and hold them to the pact requirements. Keep a calendar and watch the abuses of the rules dwindle!
 
>
> General point: don't forget that you can buy one skill at
10th cost
> when building a new character, this makes the begining Ep
award a
> little less restrictive
>
> David

I thought you could buy any one Skill at Rank 0 when starting a new character for a flat fee of 100 EP's?
Don
Group: dqn-list Message: 1098 From: dbarrass_2000 Date: 8/25/2003
Subject: Re: Character Creation EXPs
--- In dqn-list@yahoogroups.com, "Don Hawthorne" <ravenglass@e...>
wrote:
> Weighing in:
>
>
> > What do you do if a non mage wants to learn spells later?
>
> I think it depends on what kind of games you run and what kind
of players you run them for.
> I always felt that a reasonable justification for the
differences in starting characters was this: Adepts start with all
those spells and rituals at Rank 0 because they have been preparing
for their entire young lives to go out into the world *as* Adepts.
Just as warrior adventurers chose their paths because of the
attributes they built up during their "youth" (actually character
generation); strength, agility and so forth. Besides, an Adept who's
always trying to cast spells he only knows at Rank 0 is more of a
danger to himself than a warrior with the same level of skills in
weapons; there is no "Critical Fumble" table for warriors, but
the "Backfire Table" for Adepts can be brutal. And Adepts who go
haring off trying to cast "Spell of Frozen Doom" (for example) at
Rank 0 just because they *can*, sooner or later become an example of
evolution in action.

A good point, but he has to cast the spells in order to improve them,
and I'd still say sensible use of even 0 ranked spells is more of an
advantage than disadvantage

> My first response when a player who wants to start giving Adept
abilities to their experienced warrior -- who has had all the
benefits of using non-silvered weapons and wearing non-silvered armor
to get them to a high level of experience -- is to ask them to please
play RuneQuest. But, if they insist on learning spells, then they can
find a College which will take an adult to begin with -- no easy
task -- and spend the next eight years serving as an apprentice --
mopping floors, holding books during rituals, cleaning privies,
learning humility -- after which they, too, will know all the spells
and rituals of their college at Rank 0.
> Of course, all of their *warrior* abilities will have been lost
from disuse. So they'll be a starting-character-Adept, and old.

This seams harsh, but I supose some sacrifices have to be made Do
you have any third thoughs ? :--)

> Or they can petition an Adept of the College of Greater
Summonings to ask one of his "buddies" to teach them. And boy, do I
love getting players who are *that* greedy! Woo hoo, beholden to
demons, that's inspiration for *dozens* of adventures in its own
right! By the way, regarding this College, here's a handy Tip for
GMs: Don't ever have an Adept of this College in your campaign who is
an NPC... INSIST they be player characters and hold them to the pact
requirements. Keep a calendar and watch the abuses of the rules
dwindle!

I once played a Necromancer in a party of a Black Mage and Greater
Summoner - great fun, but we didn't play very long before the GM
killed us off on the grounds of taste an decency:--)

> > General point: don't forget that you can buy one skill at 10th
cost
> > when building a new character, this makes the begining Ep award a
> > little less restrictive
> >
> > David
>
> I thought you could buy any one Skill at Rank 0 when starting a new
character for a flat fee of 100 EP's?
> Don

You are, of course, correct. Memory is a fallable thing, my appoligies

David
Group: dqn-list Message: 1099 From: Don Hawthorne Date: 8/25/2003
Subject: Re: Character Creation EXPs
Weighing in:
 
>SNIP<
 
>>If
>>I'm not going to get something for not choosing
a college of magic, why
>>shouldn't every DQ character be a
mage?

    Frankly, some people simply do not enjoy playing mages. And I don't think you've had very many run-ins with the Backfire Table if you seriously advocate everybody playing one. Unless your players actually enjoy scratching together coin for silvered-everythings and generating new characters every few months to replace the casualties inflicted by the Backfire Table and by enemies with a non-Adept's Magic resistance bonus. On the other hand, if players simply get all the money they need and are allowed to do anything with no negative consequence, then these are not concerns. Go ahead and run the game anyway you like, but it's certainly not necessary to advocate any change to the rules. That's the beauty of DQ's flexibility.
 
    Folks who approach games -- any games, not just DQ -- from this sort of viewpoint are playing with criteria for fun which is diametrically opposed to my own, and nothing will change their minds.
 
    Basically, there are two ways of looking at any game:
 
    1. Rules exist as a logical framework to allow the game to proceed. The rules may be imperfect -- everything is -- but they can be maintained and kept operating by maintenance and reasonable interpretation *if* the inherent logic of the system is applied. The logic of ANY game system is there as a whole, even when we can't always see it in details, because it stems from the author's vision, most often defined by the "you-know-what-I-mean" argument. A fair assessment of the inherent logic in DragonQuest is: "Nothing is free." Everything has a cost, whether it is the price of setting your character's destiny during his initial generation, or risking annihilation at the hands of the Backfire Table.
 
or...
 
    2. Rules form the description of a rigid structure, a "container" of the game's elements, within which the players are like water. They must fill every nook and cranny exploring every "cubic inch" of their container in an attempt to bend the system to their advantage whenever possible. Everything not forbidden is mandatory. Everything possible is permissible. Whatever area of the *rules container* players can seep into which will empower them is soon filled, and the *game* ceases to be about its original subject and becomes instead one of playing its own rules. Chess is a good example. It started as a war game, but it is today a completely abstract strategy game with a finite set of rules. Go has only *three* rules. Tic-Tac-Toe has one: Start in the center and you have no excuse to lose.
 
    Why isn't this an acceptable way to play DragonQuest? Well however you want to play a game is entirely up to you, but the fact is that DQ is a ROLE-PLAYING game, not "Settlers of Catan", aka "Idiot's Civilization". One look at the sections on "How Experience is Gained" and "How Experience is Used" should tell any reader that DQ is an extremely innefficient system in terms of maximizing character power. It is *supposed* to be inefficient for this purpose; maximizing character power is obviously *not* what the game was designed to do. The Combat Rules state explicitly that in the DQ rules, combat is deadly and should be avoided whenever possible. The Magic rules state explicitly that magic is a dangerous undertaking and requires years of commitment on the part of the individual who chooses it as a career.
 
    While DQ certainly has a *lot* of number crunching, it really isn't about balance. It never was.
   
    I ran a game in "The Fantasy Trip" where the players were trying to get into a wizard's stronghold. They tried twice, both times being driven off by the wizard's guards. None of the guards were themselves mages, most were Orcs, some were humans and they had one Minotaur for back-up. The players were *very* experienced and *very* powerful, but their first attmpt got a few of them killed and put a couple o their own magic items in the hands of the stronghold's defenders to meet their *second* attempt which was equally disastrous.
 
    Finally, in exasperation, they asked me "How do we get in here, Don?"
    "Well, obviously not with an assault through the front door."
    "But we checked, there are no secret entrances; this is the only way in."
    "I know."
    "Then how do we *beat* it?"
    That was when I realized they didn't get it.
    They weren't trying to fight their way into a wizard's stronghold; they were trying bludgeon their way past a bunch of numbers that happened to look like Orcs and Humans and a Minotaur.
    It isn't my job as the GM to design a wizard's stronghold the players can "beat". It's my job to design one that the *wizard himself* would design, one in which he feels secure, and which, hopefully, intruders *cannot* "beat", whether or not those intruders happen to be player-characters. I don't put in A-Class-weapon-immune monsters if I know the players are all armed with bows and rapiers, because the game-world is full of other creatures who use all kinds of weapons.
    It is the players' job to *figure out a way to beat the design*, and my further responsibility to help them have fun doing it.
 
    DQ is based on the concept that nothing comes without a price. And sometimes that price is having to do without. Player characters in DQ can do *anything*, but just as in the real world, they cannot do *everything*.
 
    That's what RuneQuest and D&D are for.
 
Don Hawthorne
Group: dqn-list Message: 1100 From: Don Hawthorne Date: 8/25/2003
Subject: Re: Character Creation EXPs

A good point, but he has to cast the spells in order to improve them,
and I'd still say sensible use of even 0 ranked spells is more of an
advantage than disadvantage
 
???  Ummm, I might be missing something, but 87.4 makes no mention of a character be ing required to cast a spell in order to increase in rank with it. Now, I remember that is true of the Chaosium systems, but I never applied it to DQ. Besides, even if it were true, there's nothing that says the character has to cast the spell in combat, so it could be done for practice purposes with the cast bonus that is applied when performing magic outside the Tactical Stage, making it at least a bit safer. In fact, I always assumed that was what happened during the weeks of study needed to learn spells and/or raise in Rank with them. The spell was being studied and re-cast under controlled circumstances. Time and money consuming, but safe for the Adept.

>     My first response when a player who wants
to start giving Adept
abilities to their experienced warrior -- who has had all the
benefits of using non-silvered weapons and wearing non-silvered armor
to get them to a high level of experience -- is to ask them to please
play RuneQuest. But, if they insist on learning spells, then they can
find a College which will take an adult to begin with -- no easy
task -- and spend the next eight years serving as an apprentice --
mopping floors, holding books during rituals, cleaning privies,
learning humility -- after which they, too, will know all the spells
and rituals of their college at Rank 0.
>     Of course, all of their *warrior*
abilities will have been lost
from disuse. So they'll be a starting-character-Adept, and old.

This seams harsh, but I supose some sacrifices have to be made  Do
you have any third thoughs ? :--)
    Well, I have no problem with just telling my players "no".  :-)

>     Or they can petition an Adept of the
College of Greater
Summonings to ask one of his "buddies" to teach them. And boy, do I
love getting players who are *that* greedy! Woo hoo, beholden to
demons, that's inspiration for *dozens* of adventures in its own
right! By the way, regarding this College, here's a handy Tip for
GMs: Don't ever have an Adept of this College in your campaign who is
an NPC... INSIST they be player characters and hold them to the pact
requirements. Keep a calendar and watch the abuses of the rules
dwindle!

I once played a Necromancer in a party of a Black Mage and Greater
Summoner - great fun, but we didn't play very long before the GM
killed us off on the grounds of taste an decency:--)
LOL! Man, that must have been some GREAT roleplaying!!!  :-)
 
> > General point: don't forget that you can buy one skill at 10th
cost
> > when building a new character, this makes the begining Ep
award a
> > little less restrictive
> >
> >
David
>
> I thought you could buy any one Skill at Rank 0 when
starting a new
character for a flat fee of 100 EP's?
> Don

You are, of course, correct. Memory is a fallable thing, my appoligies

David

Man, no apology necessary, and I hope nothing I've written here or elsewhere has been misconstrued as a "flame"... provocative, I hope, but mean-spirited, never! I'm just surprised I can get this much cogent thought out on one cup of coffee!
Don
 
Group: dqn-list Message: 1101 From: dbarrass_2000 Date: 8/25/2003
Subject: Re: Character Creation EXPs
--- In dqn-list@yahoogroups.com, "Don Hawthorne" <ravenglass@e...>
wrote:
>
> A good point, but he has to cast the spells in order to improve
them,
> and I'd still say sensible use of even 0 ranked spells is more of
an
> advantage than disadvantage
>
>
> ??? Ummm, I might be missing something, but 87.4 makes no mention
of a character be ing required to cast a spell in order to increase
in rank with it. Now, I remember that is true of the Chaosium
systems, but I never applied it to DQ. Besides, even if it were true,
there's nothing that says the character has to cast the spell in
combat, so it could be done for practice purposes with the cast bonus
that is applied when performing magic outside the Tactical Stage,
making it at least a bit safer. In fact, I always assumed that was
what happened during the weeks of study needed to learn spells and/or
raise in Rank with them. The spell was being studied and re-cast
under controlled circumstances. Time and money consuming, but safe
for the Adept.

[87.1]
....
A character must have attempted an ability
or skill on the adventure previous to a gain in
Rank in that ability or skill.

I would take it that that it has to be used in a real situation, but
as you say not necessarily in combat

<snip>

> Well, I have no problem with just telling my players "no". :-)

grin

<snip>

> Man, no apology necessary, and I hope nothing I've written here or
elsewhere has been misconstrued as a "flame"... provocative, I hope,
but mean-spirited, never! I'm just surprised I can get this much
cogent thought out on one cup of coffee!

Nothing miss-construed by me. I'm really impressed by the level of
friendlyness in all these news groups

David
Group: dqn-list Message: 1102 From: Don Hawthorne Date: 8/25/2003
Subject: Re: Character Creation EXPs
David:
 
> ???  Ummm, I might be missing something,

[87.1]
....
A character must have attempted an ability
or skill on the adventure previous to a gain in
Rank in that ability or skill.

H-hah! Thank you, sir, good catch!
Don
Group: dqn-list Message: 1103 From: John M. Kahane Date: 8/25/2003
Subject: Queries for the FAQs
Hullo, folks,

Well, I have some new questions for the FAQ files that need to
be addressed by folks, and was wondering what folks might think of
this stuff. Any answers that folks want to toss into the mix on
these are more than welcome...


1. What spells can cause damage to Endurance and what spells can
only do Fatigue damage?

2. Are illusions (College of Illusions) "real"?

3. What are True Names, and how do they work?

4. What is the "Adventurers' Guild"? How does it operate and what
does it do for me?


... As for the border, the border is wherever the fleet sits at the moment. (Downbelow Station)

JohnK
from the Lap of OS/2
johnk-thinkpad@comnet.ca
http://www.comnet.ca/~jkahane
Group: dqn-list Message: 1104 From: D. Cameron King Date: 8/25/2003
Subject: Re: Character Creation EXPs
Bruce Probst wrote:

>On Fri, 22 Aug 2003 09:21:06 -0400, "John M. Kahane" <jkahane@comnet.ca>
>wrote:
>
> > One of the questions that I want to place into the FAQ files is
> >one that relates to Experience Points alloted when creating characters.
> > How many Experience Points do folks give out when creating characters
> >of the various levels (ie., Mercenary, Adventurer, and Hero level)?
>
>Not sure I'm following you. I never permitted character creation of
>higher-than-mercenary level, so beginning characters always got the "same"
>amount of XP (used the same table to roll them, that is).

I don't play DQ anymore, but my group did for years, and we never
allowed anyone to create a new character with any more XP (or
Ranks, or improved ability scores) than he rolled for according to the
table in rule 8.5 (I believe it was). This made just *surviving* your
first adventure a real challenge, and at least one player in our group
had a hell of a time keeping his new character(s) alive long enough
to become useful (we also had a general policy of not resurrecting
anyone unless they were at least Adventurer level; it wasn't
economically feasible, we figured). Looking back on it, though, I
think our fanatic adherence to the chargen rules made for a more
"realistic" game. There was much more a feeling that our PCs
were "ordinary folk" who had somehow been lucky enough to
survive their first brush with "adventure," and thereby gained
enough experience (not XP, but experience) to make "adventuring"
a career. It also resulted in our PC-group being more-or-less led
by the three longest-lived characters, who had all started out
together and eventually came to protect each other with a
passionate loyalty that did not extend to the "newcomers" (and
that also seemed more realistic to me). Not that the come-
latelys got shit on or anything...the longer they stuck around,
the more respect and regard they received...but we never had
that phenomenon so common to most RPGs, where the PCs
wind up trusting their very lives to total strangers just because
they happen to have an invisible "PC" mark on their foreheads.

Sorry...I guess I'm rambling on a bit. Bottom line: I don't think
you *need* to give any starting XP to new characters in DQ.

> >Do you treat Mages and non-Mages differently in this matter?
>
>Most assuredly not. I always believed that anyone who thought mages and
>non-mages should get different amounts of XP didn't understand the game
>system properly. (There was that article in "Dragon", wasn't there, about
>the guy who claimed that non-mages should get a bonus 1000 XP or something
>like that? Grr, that made me so mad when I read it!)

I actually wrote a letter to Kim Mohan, the editor of Dragon at
the time (and even got a reply back), in which I called the author
"an imbecile." I probably shouldn't have been so vituperative,
but I felt pretty strongly about it.

The main thing "The Warrior Alternative" seems to overlook is
that the first thing a non-Adept's player does is put a 5 in the
Magical Aptitude box on his character sheet, freeing up--on
average--10 characteristic points for other things like Physical
Strength, Agility, and Endurance. Those 10 points alone are
worth around 50,000 XP (a little less if more than one goes
into EN) according to the Experience Point Cost Chart [87.8].
That alone makes being a non-Adept worthwhile.

But non-Adepts also have better Magic Resistance, don't
have to use silvered (or even more expensive) weapons and
armor, or spend precious XP raising Ranks in somewhat-lame
General Knowledge Spells just so they can learn actually-
useful Special Knowledge ones.

No, "compensating" PCs who opt not to become Adepts is
a rule favored only by those who either (1) have house-ruled
their game to the point that the assumptions made by the
game designers are no longer true, or (2) don't understand
the DQ system very well. Sorry if that offends anyone out
there, but that's how I see it.

-Cameron King

_________________________________________________________________
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Group: dqn-list Message: 1105 From: D. Cameron King Date: 8/25/2003
Subject: Re: Character Creation EXPs
David Barrass wrote:

>Mages get talents and all General Knowledge Spells and Rituals at
>rank 0 for free. This is powerful. Where's the ballance in that?

As I just explained in another message to the group, the
balance is in the fact that non-Adepts get to completely ignore
their Magical Aptitude score; it's utterly irrelevant to them.
Thus, they have significantly better PS, EN, AG, MD, and/or
WP than Adepts. This, too, is powerful.

Furthermore, non-Adepts are not impaired by cold iron
equipment and have better Magic Resistance. There are
other benefits as well, but these should be enough.

>What do you do if a non mage wants to learn spells later?

This came up in our campaign only once (when a powerful
magic item that raised MA by 5 points came into our
possession, and a warrior-type wanted to use it to become
an Illusionist just for the Witchsight talent). The only rule
we could find that seemed to address the subject was
[34.5]. Based on that, we decided that the character had
to spend six months, uninterrupted, training (at no XP cost,
but he was unable to train in any other abilities or earn any
XP) in a monastery-like school.

(After finishing his training, this character gave back the
MA-boosting magic item to the Adept PC it properly
belonged to, and "forgot" spells G-3, G-4, and G-5, since
he no longer had enough MA to know that many spells
and rituals. He still had the Witchsight talent, though,
so he was happy.)

>General point: don't forget that you can buy one skill at 10th cost
>when building a new character, this makes the begining Ep award a
>little less restrictive

That's true, if the skill in question is Healer at Rank 0
(which normally costs 1000 XP). Otherwise, the rule
is that you can acquire any one skill at Rank 0 for 100
XP, which may translate to much less than one-tenth
cost. (Sorry, just nitpicking.)

-Cameron King

_________________________________________________________________
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Group: dqn-list Message: 1106 From: davis john Date: 8/25/2003
Subject: Re: Character Creation EXPs
Hmm, not sure I like the idea of any new character starting from scratch if
they are to be in a highly advanced party.... You wouldnt see a 'dream
team' hire on a complete rookie, so u wouldnt in an adventure. Like you say
you wouldnt wanna rely on any new stranger to save your skin, you'd at least
interview them, see there guild credentials, listen to their tavern tales,
see their callused hands, battle wounds etc. I cant see grizzled
adventurers taking on some snotty nosed kid straight out of enchantment
school....

JohnD


>From: "D. Cameron King" <monarchy2000@hotmail.com>
>Reply-To: dqn-list@yahoogroups.com
>To: dqn-list@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: Re: [DQN-list] Character Creation EXPs
>Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 09:49:50 -0700
>
>Bruce Probst wrote:
>
> >On Fri, 22 Aug 2003 09:21:06 -0400, "John M. Kahane" <jkahane@comnet.ca>
> >wrote:
> >
> > > One of the questions that I want to place into the FAQ files is
> > >one that relates to Experience Points alloted when creating characters.
> > > How many Experience Points do folks give out when creating characters
> > >of the various levels (ie., Mercenary, Adventurer, and Hero level)?
> >
> >Not sure I'm following you. I never permitted character creation of
> >higher-than-mercenary level, so beginning characters always got the
>"same"
> >amount of XP (used the same table to roll them, that is).
>
>I don't play DQ anymore, but my group did for years, and we never
>allowed anyone to create a new character with any more XP (or
>Ranks, or improved ability scores) than he rolled for according to the
>table in rule 8.5 (I believe it was). This made just *surviving* your
>first adventure a real challenge, and at least one player in our group
>had a hell of a time keeping his new character(s) alive long enough
>to become useful (we also had a general policy of not resurrecting
>anyone unless they were at least Adventurer level; it wasn't
>economically feasible, we figured). Looking back on it, though, I
>think our fanatic adherence to the chargen rules made for a more
>"realistic" game. There was much more a feeling that our PCs
>were "ordinary folk" who had somehow been lucky enough to
>survive their first brush with "adventure," and thereby gained
>enough experience (not XP, but experience) to make "adventuring"
>a career. It also resulted in our PC-group being more-or-less led
>by the three longest-lived characters, who had all started out
>together and eventually came to protect each other with a
>passionate loyalty that did not extend to the "newcomers" (and
>that also seemed more realistic to me). Not that the come-
>latelys got shit on or anything...the longer they stuck around,
>the more respect and regard they received...but we never had
>that phenomenon so common to most RPGs, where the PCs
>wind up trusting their very lives to total strangers just because
>they happen to have an invisible "PC" mark on their foreheads.
>
>Sorry...I guess I'm rambling on a bit. Bottom line: I don't think
>you *need* to give any starting XP to new characters in DQ.
>
> > >Do you treat Mages and non-Mages differently in this matter?
> >
> >Most assuredly not. I always believed that anyone who thought mages and
> >non-mages should get different amounts of XP didn't understand the game
> >system properly. (There was that article in "Dragon", wasn't there,
>about
> >the guy who claimed that non-mages should get a bonus 1000 XP or
>something
> >like that? Grr, that made me so mad when I read it!)
>
>I actually wrote a letter to Kim Mohan, the editor of Dragon at
>the time (and even got a reply back), in which I called the author
>"an imbecile." I probably shouldn't have been so vituperative,
>but I felt pretty strongly about it.
>
>The main thing "The Warrior Alternative" seems to overlook is
>that the first thing a non-Adept's player does is put a 5 in the
>Magical Aptitude box on his character sheet, freeing up--on
>average--10 characteristic points for other things like Physical
>Strength, Agility, and Endurance. Those 10 points alone are
>worth around 50,000 XP (a little less if more than one goes
>into EN) according to the Experience Point Cost Chart [87.8].
>That alone makes being a non-Adept worthwhile.
>
>But non-Adepts also have better Magic Resistance, don't
>have to use silvered (or even more expensive) weapons and
>armor, or spend precious XP raising Ranks in somewhat-lame
>General Knowledge Spells just so they can learn actually-
>useful Special Knowledge ones.
>
>No, "compensating" PCs who opt not to become Adepts is
>a rule favored only by those who either (1) have house-ruled
>their game to the point that the assumptions made by the
>game designers are no longer true, or (2) don't understand
>the DQ system very well. Sorry if that offends anyone out
>there, but that's how I see it.
>
>-Cameron King
>
>_________________________________________________________________
>Get MSN 8 and enjoy automatic e-mail virus protection.
>http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus
>

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