Messages in dqn-list group. Page 18 of 80.

Group: dqn-list Message: 857 From: CJC Work Date: 3/27/2003
Subject: Alusia world
Group: dqn-list Message: 858 From: phaeton_nz@yahoo.co.nz Date: 3/27/2003
Subject: Re: Alusia world
Group: dqn-list Message: 859 From: J. K. Hoffman Date: 3/27/2003
Subject: Re: The Book of Toth
Group: dqn-list Message: 860 From: J. K. Hoffman Date: 3/27/2003
Subject: Re: The Book of Toth
Group: dqn-list Message: 861 From: davis john Date: 3/28/2003
Subject: High Magic worlds
Group: dqn-list Message: 862 From: J. K. Hoffman Date: 3/28/2003
Subject: Re: High Magic worlds
Group: dqn-list Message: 863 From: jcorey30 Date: 3/28/2003
Subject: Re: Alusia world
Group: dqn-list Message: 864 From: jcorey30 Date: 3/28/2003
Subject: Re: High Magic worlds
Group: dqn-list Message: 865 From: Anthony N. Emmel Date: 3/28/2003
Subject: Re: High Magic worlds
Group: dqn-list Message: 866 From: D. Cameron King Date: 3/28/2003
Subject: Re: The Book of Toth
Group: dqn-list Message: 867 From: ryumaou@sbcglobal.net Date: 3/28/2003
Subject: Re: The Book of Toth
Group: dqn-list Message: 868 From: dqn-list@yahoogroups.com Date: 3/28/2003
Subject: New poll for dqn-list
Group: dqn-list Message: 869 From: phaeton_nz@yahoo.co.nz Date: 3/28/2003
Subject: Re: Alusia world
Group: dqn-list Message: 870 From: ryumaou@sbcglobal.net Date: 3/28/2003
Subject: Re: New poll for dqn-list
Group: dqn-list Message: 871 From: John Rauchert Date: 3/28/2003
Subject: Re: Alusia world
Group: dqn-list Message: 872 From: D. Cameron King Date: 3/28/2003
Subject: Re: The Book of Toth
Group: dqn-list Message: 873 From: Bruce Probst Date: 3/30/2003
Subject: Re: The Book of Toth
Group: dqn-list Message: 874 From: ryumaou01 Date: 3/31/2003
Subject: Yahoo! Polls config issue
Group: dqn-list Message: 875 From: dqn-list@yahoogroups.com Date: 4/5/2003
Subject: Poll results for dqn-list
Group: dqn-list Message: 876 From: jcorey30 Date: 4/6/2003
Subject: Reference to Arcane Wisdom
Group: dqn-list Message: 877 From: Rodger Thorm Date: 4/7/2003
Subject: Level of Magic
Group: dqn-list Message: 878 From: Rodger Thorm Date: 4/7/2003
Subject: Re: Reference to Arcane Wisdom
Group: dqn-list Message: 879 From: rthorm Date: 4/7/2003
Subject: Re: Reference to Arcane Wisdom
Group: dqn-list Message: 880 From: J. K. Hoffman Date: 4/7/2003
Subject: Re: Level of Magic
Group: dqn-list Message: 881 From: Bruce Probst Date: 4/8/2003
Subject: Re: Level of Magic
Group: dqn-list Message: 882 From: jcorey30 Date: 4/8/2003
Subject: Images of Dragons...
Group: dqn-list Message: 883 From: Loki Freyr Date: 4/9/2003
Subject: Re: Reference to Arcane Wisdom
Group: dqn-list Message: 884 From: Rodger Thorm Date: 4/9/2003
Subject: Items and Level of Magic
Group: dqn-list Message: 885 From: John Corey Date: 4/9/2003
Subject: Re: Reference to Arcane Wisdom
Group: dqn-list Message: 886 From: Greg Walters Date: 4/9/2003
Subject: Re: ...things in a campaign
Group: dqn-list Message: 887 From: David Chappell Date: 4/9/2003
Subject: Re: Reference to Arcane Wisdom
Group: dqn-list Message: 888 From: Anthony N. Emmel Date: 4/9/2003
Subject: Re: ...things in a campaign
Group: dqn-list Message: 889 From: S.M. Kelley Date: 4/9/2003
Subject: Re: ...things in a campaign
Group: dqn-list Message: 890 From: J. K. Hoffman Date: 4/10/2003
Subject: Re: Reference to Arcane Wisdom
Group: dqn-list Message: 891 From: John Corey Date: 4/10/2003
Subject: Re: Reference to Arcane Wisdom
Group: dqn-list Message: 892 From: Schubert, David Date: 4/10/2003
Subject: Magic shops
Group: dqn-list Message: 893 From: Rodger Thorm Date: 4/10/2003
Subject: Cost of Magical Services
Group: dqn-list Message: 894 From: jcorey30 Date: 4/10/2003
Subject: Re: Magic shops
Group: dqn-list Message: 895 From: jcorey30 Date: 4/10/2003
Subject: Re: Cost of Magical Services
Group: dqn-list Message: 896 From: Jason Winter Date: 4/10/2003
Subject: Re: Cost of Magical Services
Group: dqn-list Message: 897 From: Bruce Probst Date: 4/11/2003
Subject: Re: Reference to Arcane Wisdom
Group: dqn-list Message: 898 From: Rodger Thorm Date: 4/11/2003
Subject: Re: Magic Shops
Group: dqn-list Message: 899 From: rthorm Date: 4/12/2003
Subject: Alchemist or Shaper
Group: dqn-list Message: 900 From: J. K. Hoffman Date: 4/12/2003
Subject: Re: Alchemist or Shaper
Group: dqn-list Message: 901 From: D. Cameron King Date: 4/12/2003
Subject: obscure references in DQ
Group: dqn-list Message: 902 From: David Chappell Date: 4/14/2003
Subject: Re: Alchemist or Shaper
Group: dqn-list Message: 903 From: Russell Whyte Date: 4/14/2003
Subject: Magician skill
Group: dqn-list Message: 904 From: Bruce Probst Date: 4/14/2003
Subject: Re: Magician skill
Group: dqn-list Message: 905 From: CJC Work Date: 4/14/2003
Subject: Re: obscure references in DQ
Group: dqn-list Message: 906 From: rthorm Date: 4/15/2003
Subject: Re: obscure references in DQ



Group: dqn-list Message: 857 From: CJC Work Date: 3/27/2003
Subject: Alusia world
If any of you are unaware, there is a good sized (70+) guild of dedicated DQ
players based in New Zealand that has been playing on Alusia for nigh on 15
years or so.

http://dq.sf.org.nz/library/

Cheers
Chris













>From: "J. K. Hoffman" <ryumaou@sbcglobal.net>
>Reply-To: dqn-list@yahoogroups.com
>To: dqn-list@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: Re: [DQN-list] The Book of Toth
>Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2003 06:59:58 -0600
>
>
>
>Bruce Probst wrote:
> > The Book of Toth is a "real" document. It's some sort of history of the
> > Egyptian mythology; in modern astrological/mystic circles it's strongly
> > associated with the Tarot (or the Tarot is associated with it).
>
>Actually, I think the Egyptian document would be the Book of Thoth, not
>Toth. It's been some time since I've read much of either occultism or
>Egyptian mythology, but Thoth is the Egyptian god of writing, knowledge,
>the occult (i.e. "hidden knowledge") and magic.
>
> > Precisely how this links to succubi I have no idea. My (admittedly not
> > excessively thorough) research didn't yield any clues. Unfortunately
>I'm
> > separated by quite some distance from my "Encyclopedia of Demons" which
>has
> > been very useful in the past for filling in some of the questions raised
>by
> > the DQ rules.
>
>As far as I know, succubi and inccubi are Arabic in origin and were made
>popular via the Western occult tradition. To the best of my
>recollection, the Egyptians didn't have anything that was comparable.
>Though, I have to admit, it has been a really, really long time since I
>studied the subject seriously at all. (As in 1982, when I wrote my
>first term paper for Junior High.)
>
> > In general, note that very little, if any, of the "mystic" stuff in DQ
>was
> > made-up for the game. Certainly most of, if not all, the demonic stuff
>was
> > researched from "real" demonology sources (all of the DQ Greater Demons
>are
> > from the "Book of Solomon", a classic demonology text).
>
>This, though, I can vouch for with more certainty. There's not quite a
>"one-for-one" correspondence, but it's pretty close. If anyone is
>interested, the best book on this is by S.L. MacGregor Mathews and is
>called "The Greater Key of Solomon: Including a Clear and Precise
>Exposition of King Solomon's Secret Procedure, Its Mysteries and Magic
>Rites: Original Plates, Seals, Charms and talismans". The title is more
>intimidating than the rest of the book! ^_^ I actually have this one in
>my library somewhere. It's loads of fun and great for adding details
>about summonings and what not. It's available via Amazon.com.
>
> > I like Alusia for all the ideas of a past history it gives, and the
>variety
> > of locations it provides in a relatively small geographical area
>(compared
> > to many of the D&D world maps, which document rather enormous tracts of
>land
> > with very little imagination, as though area is a substitute for
> > creativity).
> >
> > I was able to use the "printed" Alusian history to generate an overall
> > history for my campaign world, and I have a general idea of how Alusia
>fits
> > into the rest of my world (not that I ever mapped it in any great
>detail).
> >
>
>I'd love to find a good copy of the Alusia material to look at before I
>actually buy it on eBay. Hard to come by though. Sometimes, people
>even offer maps of it there, but, again, I'd like to authenticate it
>before I take the risk of sending money.
>
>Actually, I've always thought it was a shame that no one worked up more
>in the way of a campaign world for DQ. Think about how different things
>would be if Ed Greenwood had done the Forgotten Realms for DQ instead of
>D&D... There may yet be room for a generic campaign setting, similar to
>the Kingdoms of Kalamar, but, these days especially, everything seems
>geared specifically toward d20. Ah, if only I was independently wealthy
>instead of having to work for a living, I'd make one myself. Well, I
>can dream of it, anyway.
>
>Cheers!
>Jim
>
>
>
>--
>"It's better to light one candle
> than to curse the darkness."
>-Chinese Proverb and The Motto of the Christophers
> http://www.christophers.org
>


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Group: dqn-list Message: 858 From: phaeton_nz@yahoo.co.nz Date: 3/27/2003
Subject: Re: Alusia world
>If any of you are unaware, there is a good sized (70+) guild of dedicated DQ
>players based in New Zealand that has been playing on Alusia for nigh on 15
>years or so.
>
>http://dq.sf.org.nz/library/

Maybe more on twenty - looking at our records (is the Guild secretary and
librarian) - and still going strong.

Keith.
Group: dqn-list Message: 859 From: J. K. Hoffman Date: 3/27/2003
Subject: Re: The Book of Toth
Nope, we're the same person! Just posting from two different locations.

Cheers!
Jim

D. Cameron King wrote:
> Oops! I misattributed Jim's response to J.K. Hoffman.
> My apologies...
>
> -Cameron
>
> _________________________________________________________________
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>
>
>


--
"It's better to light one candle
than to curse the darkness."
-Chinese Proverb and The Motto of the Christophers
http://www.christophers.org
Group: dqn-list Message: 860 From: J. K. Hoffman Date: 3/27/2003
Subject: Re: The Book of Toth
D. Cameron King wrote:
> Two words: Backfire Table. Cast spells (especially the
> more powerful variety) often enough, and you *will* biff
> it sooner or later. In all of the campaigns I've played
> in, Adepts have avoided casting spells unless absolutely
> necessary or circumstances virtually insured success.

Big spells do not magic-rich settings make. I would say it was the
other way around. The ability to cast smaller, more common spells over
and over again would constitute a magic-rich setting. That and the fact
that everyone and their brother, not to mention sister, cousin, uncle,
etc is an Adept.

> Furthermore, since every population center of significant
> size is also "mana poor," the rules further discourage
> casual spellcasting by doubling the Fatigue cost in those
> areas where intelligent humanoids spend most of their
> time. While that may not affect *adventuring* quite as
> much, it adds to the "low magic" feeling of the DQ world
> in general. (I've always imagined the typical DQ "town
> wizard" grumbling under his breath about how all of the
> *other* town wizards have "squandered" the local mana
> resources, as he explains to the PCs why he has to charge
> them such high prices for his services.)

Funny, I couldn't find that in the rules anywhere. Which one was that?
I was checking the Bantam soft-cover 2nd edition rules, for your
reference.

> Lastly...yes, it is possible to improve one's Rank in
> one or two spells only, thus sacrificing versatility for
> the ability to cast those spells without risk of
> backfire, but that's just "low magic" of another flavor.
> What I *don't* see in DQ are Adepts who cast a variety
> of spells at the drop of a hat, such as you do in other
> (just as enjoyable) RPGs like D&D.

I guess that depends on the College, eh? After all, there are *some*
restrictions! ^_^

> In my experience, I see just as many "single-shot"
> items in other RPGs. What you *don't* see in DQ are,
> as you note, many +5 vorpal swords of flaming doom.
> Also, even invested items aren't guaranteed to work
> in DQ (you still have to make a Cast Check), which is
> not the case with "single-shot" items in most other
> RPGs. Lastly, it's not true that *any* Adept can
> invest a spell; the Investment Ritual is a Special
> Knowledge Ritual. While it's useful enough that most
> Adepts do eventually learn it, it's not universal.

Actually, according to rule 32.3, it's just a "ritual", not a Special
Knowledge Ritual. So, in theory, it could be one of the first Rituals
an Adept learned.
Of course, the addition of Arcane Wisdom corrects some of the magic item
deficiency. But, not everyone may use that.

> Agreed. I'm not familiar with Harn at all, and tend to
> compare DQ to D&D more than anything else, but I'd just
> never heard anyone suggest that DQ was a "high magic"
> kind of game before.

Again, it's all relative. I'm almost embarrassed by the number of RPGs
that I've owned, though maybe not played. It was a fairly pervasive
addiction at one point. I still have some of the better ones, but I've
moved beyond that stage of my life. (I have a wife now and
*everything*! ^_^)
Check out Hârn and you'll see what I mean. And, it's fairly cool, too.

Cheers!
Jim

--
"It's better to light one candle
than to curse the darkness."
-Chinese Proverb and The Motto of the Christophers
http://www.christophers.org
Group: dqn-list Message: 861 From: davis john Date: 3/28/2003
Subject: High Magic worlds
Have to agree with the poster who stated facts that
--everyone (PC's) eventually becomes and adept, and in DQ there ends up
--being lots of one shot style invested items.

Very much like rolemaster in both these respects, which id say was very high
magic, even more sop than D&D style worlds.

we currently play Deciphers Lord of the Rings, which is a world full of
subtle magic but not many spells

Guess the question is what is a high magic world?
Number of magic items?
Number of spell users?
Number of fantastical beats and mythical sites?

Interesting tpoic of discussion and nobody has been rude yet, (one of the
appeals of the dqn-list, very civil)

Id say Midle-Earth is fairly high magic but has very few spell-users

JohnD








>
>Big spells do not magic-rich settings make. I would say it was the
>other way around. The ability to cast smaller, more common spells over
>and over again would constitute a magic-rich setting. That and the fact
>that everyone and their brother, not to mention sister, cousin, uncle,
>etc is an Adept.
>
> > >
>Funny, I couldn't find that in the rules anywhere. Which one was that?
> I was checking the Bantam soft-cover 2nd edition rules, for your
>reference.
>
> >
>I guess that depends on the College, eh? After all, there are *some*
>restrictions! ^_^
>
>

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Group: dqn-list Message: 862 From: J. K. Hoffman Date: 3/28/2003
Subject: Re: High Magic worlds
davis john wrote:
>
> Interesting tpoic of discussion and nobody has been rude yet, (one of the
> appeals of the dqn-list, very civil)
>

Especially amazing when one considers my terrible reputation on some
other lists I'm on! ^_^ Maybe I'm just mellowing with age...

Cheers!
Jim
--
"It's better to light one candle
than to curse the darkness."
-Chinese Proverb and The Motto of the Christophers
http://www.christophers.org
Group: dqn-list Message: 863 From: jcorey30 Date: 3/28/2003
Subject: Re: Alusia world
I am not sure it is going strong... page last updated a year ago?

--- In dqn-list@yahoogroups.com, "CJC Work" <cjcwork@h...> wrote:
> If any of you are unaware, there is a good sized (70+) guild of
dedicated DQ
> players based in New Zealand that has been playing on Alusia for
nigh on 15
> years or so.
>
> http://dq.sf.org.nz/library/
>
> Cheers
> Chris
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >From: "J. K. Hoffman" <ryumaou@s...>
> >Reply-To: dqn-list@yahoogroups.com
> >To: dqn-list@yahoogroups.com
> >Subject: Re: [DQN-list] The Book of Toth
> >Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2003 06:59:58 -0600
> >
> >
> >
> >Bruce Probst wrote:
> > > The Book of Toth is a "real" document. It's some sort of
history of the
> > > Egyptian mythology; in modern astrological/mystic circles it's
strongly
> > > associated with the Tarot (or the Tarot is associated with it).
> >
> >Actually, I think the Egyptian document would be the Book of
Thoth, not
> >Toth. It's been some time since I've read much of either
occultism or
> >Egyptian mythology, but Thoth is the Egyptian god of writing,
knowledge,
> >the occult (i.e. "hidden knowledge") and magic.
> >
> > > Precisely how this links to succubi I have no idea. My
(admittedly not
> > > excessively thorough) research didn't yield any clues.
Unfortunately
> >I'm
> > > separated by quite some distance from my "Encyclopedia of
Demons" which
> >has
> > > been very useful in the past for filling in some of the
questions raised
> >by
> > > the DQ rules.
> >
> >As far as I know, succubi and inccubi are Arabic in origin and
were made
> >popular via the Western occult tradition. To the best of my
> >recollection, the Egyptians didn't have anything that was
comparable.
> >Though, I have to admit, it has been a really, really long time
since I
> >studied the subject seriously at all. (As in 1982, when I wrote my
> >first term paper for Junior High.)
> >
> > > In general, note that very little, if any, of the "mystic"
stuff in DQ
> >was
> > > made-up for the game. Certainly most of, if not all, the
demonic stuff
> >was
> > > researched from "real" demonology sources (all of the DQ
Greater Demons
> >are
> > > from the "Book of Solomon", a classic demonology text).
> >
> >This, though, I can vouch for with more certainty. There's not
quite a
> >"one-for-one" correspondence, but it's pretty close. If anyone is
> >interested, the best book on this is by S.L. MacGregor Mathews and
is
> >called "The Greater Key of Solomon: Including a Clear and Precise
> >Exposition of King Solomon's Secret Procedure, Its Mysteries and
Magic
> >Rites: Original Plates, Seals, Charms and talismans". The title
is more
> >intimidating than the rest of the book! ^_^ I actually have this
one in
> >my library somewhere. It's loads of fun and great for adding
details
> >about summonings and what not. It's available via Amazon.com.
> >
> > > I like Alusia for all the ideas of a past history it gives, and
the
> >variety
> > > of locations it provides in a relatively small geographical
area
> >(compared
> > > to many of the D&D world maps, which document rather enormous
tracts of
> >land
> > > with very little imagination, as though area is a substitute for
> > > creativity).
> > >
> > > I was able to use the "printed" Alusian history to generate an
overall
> > > history for my campaign world, and I have a general idea of how
Alusia
> >fits
> > > into the rest of my world (not that I ever mapped it in any
great
> >detail).
> > >
> >
> >I'd love to find a good copy of the Alusia material to look at
before I
> >actually buy it on eBay. Hard to come by though. Sometimes,
people
> >even offer maps of it there, but, again, I'd like to authenticate
it
> >before I take the risk of sending money.
> >
> >Actually, I've always thought it was a shame that no one worked up
more
> >in the way of a campaign world for DQ. Think about how different
things
> >would be if Ed Greenwood had done the Forgotten Realms for DQ
instead of
> >D&D... There may yet be room for a generic campaign setting,
similar to
> >the Kingdoms of Kalamar, but, these days especially, everything
seems
> >geared specifically toward d20. Ah, if only I was independently
wealthy
> >instead of having to work for a living, I'd make one myself.
Well, I
> >can dream of it, anyway.
> >
> >Cheers!
> >Jim
> >
> >
> >
> >--
> >"It's better to light one candle
> > than to curse the darkness."
> >-Chinese Proverb and The Motto of the Christophers
> > http://www.christophers.org
> >
>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*.
> http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus
Group: dqn-list Message: 864 From: jcorey30 Date: 3/28/2003
Subject: Re: High Magic worlds
--- In dqn-list@yahoogroups.com, "davis john" <jrd123@h...> wrote:
>
> Have to agree with the poster who stated facts that
> --everyone (PC's) eventually becomes and adept,

This has never been the case in the games i have played. But that
could be because we only play once per month

and in DQ there ends up
> --being lots of one shot style invested items.

Invested items are the bane of my existence.

>
> Very much like rolemaster in both these respects, which id say was
very high
> magic, even more sop than D&D style worlds.
>
> we currently play Deciphers Lord of the Rings, which is a world
full of
> subtle magic but not many spells

I have been very curious about this game. Because I have wanted to
play a game that acurately reflected LOTR. Could this game actually
do that? MERP always failed (IMHO) because there were too many spell
casters.

>
> Guess the question is what is a high magic world?
> Number of magic items?

Yes, I think they should be very few, and incredibly far between.

> Number of spell users?

This is an interesting question. My PCs tend to run into many spell
users, but I tried to design a world where there were not that many.

> Number of fantastical beats and mythical sites?

I have never considered this as a factor, but I think you make an
excellent point.

>
> Interesting tpoic of discussion and nobody has been rude yet, (one
of the
> appeals of the dqn-list, very civil)
>
> Id say Midle-Earth is fairly high magic but has very few spell-users

I think this is not true. There is a lot of magic that 99% of the
population is not aware of. IMHO.

>
> JohnD
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >
Group: dqn-list Message: 865 From: Anthony N. Emmel Date: 3/28/2003
Subject: Re: High Magic worlds

Chello!

 jcorey30 <john@dragonquestadventures.com> wrote:

--- In dqn-list@yahoogroups.com, "davis john" <jrd123@h...> wrote:
>
> Have to agree with the poster who stated facts that
> --everyone (PC's) eventually becomes and adept,

This has never been the case in the games i have played.  But that
could be because we only play once per month

I agree...while DQ allows one to do as much (or as little) as one wants, it's been my experience that most players tend to specialize, ie, good fighter, stealthy rogue, knowledgeable wizard, etc.  Especially with the minimum MA needed for colleges...unless one REALLY wants to be an Adept, most players, in my experience again, don't dabble in magic.

In my group, it was Ranger that everyone had to have! ;)

Tony



Anthony N. Emmel

HMGMA# TX-1-00162-01

��There are no happy endings,� Cerin told her. �There are no real endings ever--happy or otherwise. We all have our own stories which are just a part of the one Story that binds both this world and Faerie�.all the while the Story just goes on.��

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Group: dqn-list Message: 866 From: D. Cameron King Date: 3/28/2003
Subject: Re: The Book of Toth
J.K. Hoffman wrote:

>Big spells do not magic-rich settings make.

That wasn't my claim. My claim was simply that the backfire rules
discourage casual spellcasting, especially of big spells.

>I would say it was the
>other way around. The ability to cast smaller, more common spells over
>and over again would constitute a magic-rich setting. That and the fact
>that everyone and their brother, not to mention sister, cousin, uncle,
>etc is an Adept.

I join with several others who have not had this experience. The
people I've played with have generally preferred to stick a "5" in
MA and put the rest of their Characteristic Points in PS, AG, EN
and so forth. *Most* of our player characters have been non-Adepts.
Even later in the campaign, when XP costs are less of a limiting
factor, the minimum MA requirements prevent most characters from
learning magic (though you can always become a Namer, I guess).
Most non-Adepts would rather just keep their superior Magic
Resistance, in my experience.

> > Furthermore, since every population center of significant
> > size is also "mana poor," the rules further discourage
> > casual spellcasting by doubling the Fatigue cost in those
> > areas where intelligent humanoids spend most of their
> > time. While that may not affect *adventuring* quite as
> > much, it adds to the "low magic" feeling of the DQ world
> > in general. (I've always imagined the typical DQ "town
> > wizard" grumbling under his breath about how all of the
> > *other* town wizards have "squandered" the local mana
> > resources, as he explains to the PCs why he has to charge
> > them such high prices for his services.)
>
>Funny, I couldn't find that in the rules anywhere. Which one was that?

"Mana Rich" and "mana poor" areas are described in [27.1]. The
Frontiers of Alusia setting makes it clear that any city, town, or
village worth putting on a map is a "mana poor" area.

> > In my experience, I see just as many "single-shot"
> > items in other RPGs. What you *don't* see in DQ are,
> > as you note, many +5 vorpal swords of flaming doom.
> > Also, even invested items aren't guaranteed to work
> > in DQ (you still have to make a Cast Check), which is
> > not the case with "single-shot" items in most other
> > RPGs. Lastly, it's not true that *any* Adept can
> > invest a spell; the Investment Ritual is a Special
> > Knowledge Ritual. While it's useful enough that most
> > Adepts do eventually learn it, it's not universal.
>
>Actually, according to rule 32.3, it's just a "ritual", not a Special
>Knowledge Ritual. So, in theory, it could be one of the first Rituals
>an Adept learned.

The second-to-last sentence in [32.3] reads: "The Investment Ritual
is a Special Knowledge Ritual." I believe this is true for all
versions of the 2nd edition rulebook.

-Cameron

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Group: dqn-list Message: 867 From: ryumaou@sbcglobal.net Date: 3/28/2003
Subject: Re: The Book of Toth
--- Original Message ---
From: "D. Cameron King" <monarchy2000@hotmail.com>
>That wasn't my claim. My claim was simply that the
backfire rules
>discourage casual spellcasting, especially of big
spells.

Ah, I misunderstood. I thought you were saying that
the backfire rules made it so prohibitive to cast the
bigger spells that characters only cast the lower
power spells.
Personally, I always thought it encouraged
specializing in several spells, so that backfires were
fewer and further between. But, I can see your point.

>I join with several others who have not had this
experience. The
>people I've played with have generally preferred to
stick a "5" in
>MA and put the rest of their Characteristic Points in
PS, AG, EN
>and so forth. *Most* of our player characters have
been non-Adepts.
>Even later in the campaign, when XP costs are less of
a limiting
>factor, the minimum MA requirements prevent most
characters from
>learning magic (though you can always become a Namer,
I guess).
>Most non-Adepts would rather just keep their superior
Magic
>Resistance, in my experience.

Actually, I meant the characters in the supplements.
If you look through them, there is a preponderance of
Adepts. Far more than I would expect in even a
relatively high-magic world. Functionally, player
characters usually start out as Adepts, or just don't
ever do it.
>"Mana Rich" and "mana poor" areas are described in
[27.1]. The
>Frontiers of Alusia setting makes it clear that any
city, town, or
>village worth putting on a map is a "mana poor" area.

I'd fogotten about that one. Been awhile since I've
actually played! Of course, in a non-Alusia setting,
things might be different. Still, a "magical Rome"
would probably not exist.

>The second-to-last sentence in [32.3] reads: "The
Investment Ritual
>is a Special Knowledge Ritual." I believe this is
true for all
>versions of the 2nd edition rulebook.

Again, I stand corrected. But, as I recall, there's
nothing that would otherwise prohibit the adept from
learning and using the Ritual. And, again, how
many "one-offs" there are is a matter of game play.
Now, I'll grant you I'm not too familiar with all the
other FRPGs out there, but certainly there aren't very
many "one-offs" in D&D. It is nice, however, that the
3E rules finally include what spells and skills are
required to make an item. Quantum shift in the
thinking of the players, GM, etc.
The chance that a particular one-shot item doesn't
work is, in my opinion, rather like a flint-lock
pistol. There's always a chance that something will
go wrong, but then you just grab the next gun.

Again, I really think that a lot of this comes down to
particular campaigns and what we're comparing it
with. Even with the limitations we've been talking
about, I think of it as having higher magic levels
than H�rn or Ars Magica, where magic is supposed to be
a secretive thing. Even Mage: The Ascention puts
bigger limits on magic use than DQ, in my opinion, and
that's *all* about magic.
Maybe it's just been so long since I actively played
that I remember it differently. Maybe I'd play it
differently now, too. <shrug> Who knows? I just
always got the impression from the number of NPCs that
were Adepts, in addition to whatever else they were,
that it was a relatively magic-rich setting. YMMV.

Cheers!
Jim
P.S. Again, sorry for the formatting and name change
due to the web interface I'm using at the moment.
Group: dqn-list Message: 868 From: dqn-list@yahoogroups.com Date: 3/28/2003
Subject: New poll for dqn-list
Enter your vote today! A new poll has been created for the
dqn-list group:

Do you think of DragonQuest as magic-
rich, magic-poor, or somewhere in the
middle?

o Magic-Rich
o Magic-Poor
o Neither, or Magic-Balanced


To vote, please visit the following web page:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dqn-list/surveys?id=1053801

Note: Please do not reply to this message. Poll votes are
not collected via email. To vote, you must go to the Yahoo! Groups
web site listed above.

Thanks!
Group: dqn-list Message: 869 From: phaeton_nz@yahoo.co.nz Date: 3/28/2003
Subject: Re: Alusia world
>I am not sure it is going strong... page last updated a year ago?

I probably forgot to update the 'page last updated' date on the relative
pages again. The 'What's New page should give a more accurate indication of
when the last update was. Speaking of which - there's a new issue of the
SGT to put up.

On a related topic - does anyone know of a search engine that can be
installed on a site to search through all the PDF documents on that site?
Maintaining the manual indexes is a real pain.

Keith.
Group: dqn-list Message: 870 From: ryumaou@sbcglobal.net Date: 3/28/2003
Subject: Re: New poll for dqn-list
Just so everyone knows, I did the poll out of
curiosity. There seemed to be some compelling reasons
for the low-magic perception and I was curious how
other people not willing to join the debate felt.

Thanks,
Jim

--- Original Message ---
From: dqn-list@yahoogroups.com
To: dqn-list@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [DQN-list] New poll for dqn-list

>
>Enter your vote today! A new poll has been created
for the
>dqn-list group:
>
>Do you think of DragonQuest as magic-
>rich, magic-poor, or somewhere in the
>middle?
>
> o Magic-Rich
> o Magic-Poor
> o Neither, or Magic-Balanced
>
>
>To vote, please visit the following web page:
>
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dqn-list/surveys?
id=1053801
>
>Note: Please do not reply to this message. Poll votes
are
>not collected via email. To vote, you must go to the
Yahoo! Groups
>web site listed above.
>
>Thanks!
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -------
>
>
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
Group: dqn-list Message: 871 From: John Rauchert Date: 3/28/2003
Subject: Re: Alusia world
RE: [DQN-list] Re: Alusia world

One way may be to use the freebie Google search if your site is indexed by Google it also indexes htm doc and a number of file formats as well as pdf

http://www.google.ca/services/free.html

I used it to some effect on the newsletter archive.

http://johnrauchert.brinkster.net/dq/archive/dqnewsletter/

John F. Rauchert

-----Original Message-----
From: phaeton_nz@yahoo.co.nz [mailto:phaeton_nz@yahoo.co.nz]
Sent: Friday, March 28, 2003 12:23 PM
To: dqn-list@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [DQN-list] Re: Alusia world

On a related topic - does anyone know of a search engine that can be
installed on a site to search through all the PDF documents on that site?
Maintaining the manual indexes is a real pain.

Group: dqn-list Message: 872 From: D. Cameron King Date: 3/28/2003
Subject: Re: The Book of Toth
J.K. Hoffman wrote:

>Actually, I meant the characters in the supplements.
>If you look through them, there is a preponderance of
>Adepts. Far more than I would expect in even a
>relatively high-magic world. Functionally, player
>characters usually start out as Adepts, or just don't
>ever do it.

Ahh, yes! If you go by published NPCs, I can
certainly see your point. Of course, if you
judged average human(oid) Perception scores by
the published NPCs, you'd think it hovers
around 20, while the highest player character
PC score *I* ever saw was about 12. The NPCs,
as I recall them, seemed astonishingly high-
powered in comparison to the typical player
character generated "by the book."

> >The second-to-last sentence in [32.3] reads: "The
>Investment Ritual
> >is a Special Knowledge Ritual." I believe this is
>true for all
> >versions of the 2nd edition rulebook.
>
>Again, I stand corrected. But, as I recall, there's
>nothing that would otherwise prohibit the adept from
>learning and using the Ritual.

Well, no. Other than the limit on how many
spells/rituals Ranked below 6 one can learn.
But it definitely seems to me like a ritual
that gets learned somewhere "down the road,"
rather than being something that every
beginning adventurer-Adept has in his
repertoire.

>Again, I really think that a lot of this comes down to
>particular campaigns and what we're comparing it
>with.

Absolutely. I've heard other DQers say that the
Ritual of Investment is a huge problem because
Adepts invest everything they own with spells.
I've never seen that happen myself, but that's
probably just because my groups have willingly
refrained from getting cheesy with investments.

I'd certainly be interested in seeing the results
of your poll. Don't forget to close it someday
so we can check the tally!

-Cameron

_________________________________________________________________
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Group: dqn-list Message: 873 From: Bruce Probst Date: 3/30/2003
Subject: Re: The Book of Toth
On Thu, 27 Mar 2003 06:58:33 -0600, "J. K. Hoffman" <ryumaou@sbcglobal.net>
wrote:

>Seriously, though, how much would it take to make a generic world and
>include "suggestions" for several systems, including d20 and
>DragonQuest.

That was done in the past, with Chaosium's "Thieves' World" set (which I
guess is not strictly "generic" but it otherwise fits the definition). The
only problem is that if you're only looking for *one* of the featured game
systems, rather than *all* of them, you've got an awfully large number of
wasted pages that you've paid for.

Also, what game systems do you include? From a sales point of view,
including games that no longer exist for sale (and have not existed for
years) would seem like a waste of effort.

A better approach is to make the whole thing as generic as possible, such as
Blade's "Citybook" series. And they work well enough for what they are; one
reason why they work as they do is, I think, because they deliberately
concentrate on small settings rather than "the big picture".

>Just us poor, creative, "out-of-the-box" thinkers who still love DragonQuest
>would want a cool setting. *sigh*

Not just DQ players. If I was running a FRPG right now I'd probably be
running D&D3, but I doubt that I'd be using any *particular* world setting
published for those rules, although some of them have intriguing concepts.
I'd rather not be tied into a world setting that can't easily fit in
whatever I might want it to have. Performing radical surgery on a published
world can be very time-consuming, and if I'm doing that much work I'd rather
be working on my *own* material.

----------------------------------------------------------------
Bruce Probst bprobst@netspace.net.au ICQ 6563830
Canberra, Australia MSTie #72759 SCA #80160
"Hi-Keeba!"
ASL FAQ http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/mantis/ASLFAQ
Group: dqn-list Message: 874 From: ryumaou01 Date: 3/31/2003
Subject: Yahoo! Polls config issue
Everyone, I have an apology to make...
When I set up that poll about the magic content of DQ, I had set it
to expire on April 11. I went to change that to April 4, which is
this Friday. It did that, but wiped out the results so far!
If you voted, could you vote again, please?
And, of course, if you haven't voted yet, could you? ^_^

Thanks, and I sincerely apologize to the folks that already voted
once. Yahoo gave me NO warning AT ALL that results would be lost by
editing the poll.

Thanks,
Jim
Group: dqn-list Message: 875 From: dqn-list@yahoogroups.com Date: 4/5/2003
Subject: Poll results for dqn-list
The following dqn-list poll is now closed. Here are the
final results:


POLL QUESTION: Do you think of DragonQuest as magic-
rich, magic-poor, or somewhere in the
middle?

CHOICES AND RESULTS
- Magic-Rich, 4 votes, 40.00%
- Magic-Poor, 1 votes, 10.00%
- Neither, or Magic-Balanced, 5 votes, 50.00%



For more information about this group, please visit
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dqn-list

For help with Yahoo! Groups, please visit
http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/groups/
Group: dqn-list Message: 876 From: jcorey30 Date: 4/6/2003
Subject: Reference to Arcane Wisdom
You may have noticed from my Book of Toth post, that after 20 years with this game, I am just begining to discover the college of Greater Summonings. In reading it recently, I saw a reference to Arcaen Wisdom. I knew there were references to it in The Enchanted Wood, but I had never noticed them in the rule book before. I was stunned. It was the part where they discuss the protective disks that Summoners can use, and how they must be made by a member of the college of shaping magics.
Group: dqn-list Message: 877 From: Rodger Thorm Date: 4/7/2003
Subject: Level of Magic
Apropos this whole discussion of the level of magic in DQ, I remember an event very early on in my original DQ campaign. I had run a couple of adventures, and the characters were in a town. They didn't have a whole lot of money, but they'd collected a bit, and someone wanted to find a magic shop.

We'd mostly played D&D up to this point, and the DragonQuest campaign was something new. And we were probably of a fairly typical D&D school of play, where every good sized town had a magic shop (or two or three).

I don't even remember if they were looking to buy something or sell something. But as soon as they were in the shop, I knew it was the wrong thing for the campaign. It didn't fit into the game. That was why there was no list of magic items and their costs in the rulebook. I let them go ahead, but I knew that I was going to have to make sure that this wasn't part of the campaign.

Once they were outside, I told them, "As you walk down the street, you suddenly spot a red dragon swooping in towards the city. It flies right overhead and torches the magic shop with its flames. The building ignites instantly." (This was also one of the very few times someone has seen a dragon in my campaign.) The building and all of its contents were destroyed.

Since then, I've never had retail magic in my campaign. I think that magic-as-commodity is one of the defining characteristics of magic-rich (or at least the perception of it). A campaign world where magic items can be easily bought and sold is a magic-rich world.

My campaign is one where there are many practicing mages, but they are not, for the most part, retail providers. There is nothing in the way of a D&D-style McMagics to be found. Characters who want to do business deals with magicicans tend to find their end of the bargain involves procurement of rare and exotic items, rather than simple cash transactions. This in turn has worked well to keep the level of commercial activity in magical goods quite low.

Magic ends up with a more nuanced flavor in a DragonQuest world such as this. The characters are aware of a number of magical colleges out there; they know that magic out there and that they may need to confront it. But they have only their own resources, for the most part. Magic is there, and it can be powerful at times, but it is also difficult to obtain.

That's the balance that my campaign has found, and it seems to have worked very well for us.

--Rodger Thorm
Group: dqn-list Message: 878 From: Rodger Thorm Date: 4/7/2003
Subject: Re: Reference to Arcane Wisdom
Oh, yes.

Arcane Wisdom was on the boards and under way. They
fully intended to have that as part of the whole canon
of DQ, even to the point of making reference to it, as
you just discovered. I've had several good PCs who
were Summoners. The opportunity to mess with them
makes for some fantastic fun; and if you are going to
have someone playing a Summoner, I can give you a
whole bunch of suggestions. ;->

One of the PCs in my current campaign is a Summoner,
although he tries to do very little with it.

This whole thread on the book of Thoth has also gotten
me thinking about a new thread for my campaign (if we
ever can get together again; it's been since January
that we've been trying to set a date, and no one is
cooperating).

--RT

--- jcorey30 <john@dragonquestadventures.com> wrote:
> You may have noticed from my Book of Toth post, that
> after 20 years with this game, I am just begining to
> discover the college of Greater Summonings. In
> reading it recently, I saw a reference to Arcaen
> Wisdom. I knew there were references to it in The
> Enchanted Wood, but I had never noticed them in the
> rule book before. I was stunned. It was the part
> where they discuss the protective disks that
> Summoners can use, and how they must be made by a
> member of the college of shaping magics.
>
>


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Group: dqn-list Message: 879 From: rthorm Date: 4/7/2003
Subject: Re: Reference to Arcane Wisdom
Appologies to all.

I thought I was replying to a personal message, not one from the list.
Sorry for sending that to the whole group.

--- In dqn-list@yahoogroups.com, Rodger Thorm <rodger_thorm@y...> wrote:
Group: dqn-list Message: 880 From: J. K. Hoffman Date: 4/7/2003
Subject: Re: Level of Magic
Rodger Thorm wrote:
> Since then, I've never had retail magic in my campaign. I think that
> magic-as-commodity is one of the defining characteristics of
> magic-rich (or at least the perception of it). A campaign world
> where magic items can be easily bought and sold is a magic-rich
> world.
>
> My campaign is one where there are many practicing mages, but they
> are not, for the most part, retail providers. There is nothing in
> the way of a D&D-style McMagics to be found. Characters who want to
> do business deals with magicicans tend to find their end of the
> bargain involves procurement of rare and exotic items, rather than
> simple cash transactions. This in turn has worked well to keep the
> level of commercial activity in magical goods quite low.
>
> Magic ends up with a more nuanced flavor in a DragonQuest world such
> as this. The characters are aware of a number of magical colleges
> out there; they know that magic out there and that they may need to
> confront it. But they have only their own resources, for the most
> part. Magic is there, and it can be powerful at times, but it is
> also difficult to obtain.
>
> That's the balance that my campaign has found, and it seems to have
> worked very well for us.
>
> --Rodger Thorm
>

You know, I think that whole "magic shop" idea is something that sort of
went with D&D, as opposed to DQ. I tend to have a stereotype of
hard-core D&D players, in part based on guys I used to game with, that
tend to head toward the Ease of Use end of things, as opposed to the
High Realism. That, of course, is my problem, but it colors how I see
some of these problems.
OTH, I seem to recall reading, either in the rules or an interview, that
the designers of DQ set out to make a rule system that let one recreate
any of the literary worlds found in fantasy fiction at the time. That's
where the College of Naming Incantations comes from, Ursula K. LeGuin's
Earthsea books. So, I think your approach is more like a literary one
than a "game" solution. I don't think "magic shops", per se, are
realistic at all. But, then, I don't think much beyond a craftsman
level of technology would be realistic in that kind of setting. But,
that's just me.

Thanks for the insights. Brings back the memories, doesn't it? ^_^
Cheers!
Jim
--
"It's better to light one candle
than to curse the darkness."
-Chinese Proverb and The Motto of the Christophers
http://www.christophers.org
Group: dqn-list Message: 881 From: Bruce Probst Date: 4/8/2003
Subject: Re: Level of Magic
On Mon, 7 Apr 2003 07:35:52 -0400 (GMT), Rodger Thorm <dqn@earthlink.net>
wrote:

>Since then, I've never had retail magic in my campaign. I think that magic-as-commodity is one of the defining characteristics of magic-rich (or at least the perception of it). A campaign world where magic items can be easily bought and sold is a magic-rich world.

I agree that this is the way to go, in general. However, that's not to say
that there shouldn't be some sort of "magic items made to order"
arrangement. In particular, given the nature of the Shaping rules, I would
expect that any powerful ruler would have at least one competent Shaper in
their employ. In return for paying for the lab and so forth, the ruler
could demand/pay for items made to commission. Relatively simple magic
items could be made so that, for example, the ruler's bodyguards are all
equipped with simple magic swords, for example -- nothing very exotic but
sufficient to deal with demons etc. that might be sent by an enemy.

Truly exotic magic items should be rare and "not for sale at any price", of
course. But the Shaping rules allow for as many "trivial" magic items as
one might care for. Such trivial items might be made available for sale
(under very specific controlled conditions, and certainly not cheap!).

(Something the GM should think about is why there might be powerful magic
items *at all*. There's not much incentive for an individual Shaper to make
many of these, if any. A magical broadsword that adds 4 Ranks to the
wielder's ability is simple to make under the Shaping rules; a runesword
that drains the soul of your opponent on the other hand is insanely
difficult, time-consuming, expensive AND dangerous to make, so why would a
Shaper even consider it? There's no easy answer for this, it's something
each GM would need to decide as part of his overall campaign feel.)

>That's the balance that my campaign has found, and it seems to have worked very well for us.

I'm glad it worked for you. My campaign became very magic-heavy much
quicker than I would have preferred, and it was a contributing factor for
why I stopped running it when I did. On the one hand you want to be fair to
the players and not disadvantage the magic-using characters by making things
too hard for them; on the other hand give them too much and it all gets very
easy too quickly. (Of course the gaming style preferred by your players
will dictate a lot of this too.)

----------------------------------------------------------------
Bruce Probst bprobst@netspace.net.au ICQ 6563830
Canberra, Australia MSTie #72759 SCA #80160
"I like it VERY MUCH."
ASL FAQ http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/mantis/ASLFAQ
Group: dqn-list Message: 882 From: jcorey30 Date: 4/8/2003
Subject: Images of Dragons...
I have seen a lot of good images in some of the recent DQ
publications (Forbbiden Lore, and Poor Brendan's Almanac come to
mind). But i am have trouble locating any that I can use that don't
violate someone's copyrights

I am looking for a couple of free high quality images for some work I
am doing on some DQ projects. I have discovered two things:
1) A search along the lines of "Free Dragon clip art" provides as
many popups, and as little action as some other "free", less virtuous
searches.
2) There are some really nice images out there, but they are not
free.

I will be posting this on other boards, so I apologize if any of you
get duplicates.

thanks!

JohnC
Group: dqn-list Message: 883 From: Loki Freyr Date: 4/9/2003
Subject: Re: Reference to Arcane Wisdom
Attachments :
    I would love to hear some of your suggestions re Summoners. I use demons frequently in my campaign. They are one of the elements of DQ that really sets it apart from other systems.

    --Loki

    -----Original Message-----
    From: Rodger Thorm [mailto:rodger_thorm@yahoo.com]
    Sent: Mon 4/7/2003 9:10 AM
    To: dqn-list@yahoogroups.com
    Cc:
    Subject: Re: [DQN-list] Reference to Arcane Wisdom



    Oh, yes.

    Arcane Wisdom was on the boards and under way. They
    fully intended to have that as part of the whole canon
    of DQ, even to the point of making reference to it, as
    you just discovered. I've had several good PCs who
    were Summoners. The opportunity to mess with them
    makes for some fantastic fun; and if you are going to
    have someone playing a Summoner, I can give you a
    whole bunch of suggestions. ;->

    One of the PCs in my current campaign is a Summoner,
    although he tries to do very little with it.

    This whole thread on the book of Thoth has also gotten
    me thinking about a new thread for my campaign (if we
    ever can get together again; it's been since January
    that we've been trying to set a date, and no one is
    cooperating).

    --RT

    --- jcorey30 <john@dragonquestadventures.com> wrote:
    > You may have noticed from my Book of Toth post, that
    > after 20 years with this game, I am just begining to
    > discover the college of Greater Summonings. In
    > reading it recently, I saw a reference to Arcaen
    > Wisdom. I knew there were references to it in The
    > Enchanted Wood, but I had never noticed them in the
    > rule book before. I was stunned. It was the part
    > where they discuss the protective disks that
    > Summoners can use, and how they must be made by a
    > member of the college of shaping magics.
    >
    >


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    Group: dqn-list Message: 884 From: Rodger Thorm Date: 4/9/2003
    Subject: Items and Level of Magic
    I didn't mean to imply that there was no trade in magical items, or that magical services couldn't be bought. The distinction I wanted to make was that the _retail_ level wasn't there.

    Magic is not something that is in ordinary trade. It remains something special and rare, not something that is bought off the rack. It is available, but it is subject to individual arrangement and negotiation; there isn't a sticker price.

    I've made Shapers vanishingly rare in my campaign (in part because the campaign had been in place for several years before we finally got our hands on a copy of a copy of a copy of... 'Arcane Wisdom') And, by and large, my players have not searched out Shapers to have items crafted for them (though one ended up giving me several plot lines out of things he wanted to have crafted).

    This leads to a whole other question, which I will post separately.

    --Rodger


    -------Original Message-------

    From: Bruce Probst <bprobst@netspace.net.au>
    Subject: Re: Level of Magic

    On Mon, 7 Apr 2003 07:35:52 -0400 (GMT), Rodger Thorm <dqn@earthlink.net>
    wrote:

    >Since then, I've never had retail magic in my campaign. I think that
    magic-as-commodity is one of the defining characteristics of magic-rich (or at
    least the perception of it). A campaign world where magic items can be
    easily bought and sold is a magic-rich world.

    I agree that this is the way to go, in general. However, that's not to
    say
    that there shouldn't be some sort of "magic items made to order"
    arrangement. In particular, given the nature of the Shaping rules, I
    would
    expect that any powerful ruler would have at least one competent Shaper in
    their employ. In return for paying for the lab and so forth, the ruler
    could demand/pay for items made to commission. Relatively simple magic
    items could be made so that, for example, the ruler's bodyguards are all
    equipped with simple magic swords, for example -- nothing very exotic but
    sufficient to deal with demons etc. that might be sent by an enemy.

    Truly exotic magic items should be rare and "not for sale at any price",
    of
    course. But the Shaping rules allow for as many "trivial" magic items as
    one might care for. Such trivial items might be made available for sale
    (under very specific controlled conditions, and certainly not cheap!).

    (Something the GM should think about is why there might be powerful magic
    items *at all*. There's not much incentive for an individual Shaper to
    make
    many of these, if any. A magical broadsword that adds 4 Ranks to the
    wielder's ability is simple to make under the Shaping rules; a runesword
    that drains the soul of your opponent on the other hand is insanely
    difficult, time-consuming, expensive AND dangerous to make, so why would a
    Shaper even consider it? There's no easy answer for this, it's something
    each GM would need to decide as part of his overall campaign feel.)

    >That's the balance that my campaign has found, and it seems to have
    worked very well for us.

    I'm glad it worked for you. My campaign became very magic-heavy much
    quicker than I would have preferred, and it was a contributing factor for
    why I stopped running it when I did. On the one hand you want to be fair
    to
    the players and not disadvantage the magic-using characters by making
    things
    too hard for them; on the other hand give them too much and it all gets
    very
    easy too quickly. (Of course the gaming style preferred by your players
    will dictate a lot of this too.)
    Group: dqn-list Message: 885 From: John Corey Date: 4/9/2003
    Subject: Re: Reference to Arcane Wisdom
    I don't have so many, because I am just discovering the college myself.
    But I had campaign thoughts on this college and one other.

    If you were to make Greater Summonings, and lesser summonings the only
    two... you could create a campaign resembling the world of Elric.
    Maybe shaping too.

    Or you could take naming, and use it exclusively, and play Earthsea.


    On Wednesday, April 9, 2003, at 03:49 AM, Loki Freyr wrote:

    > I would love to hear some of your suggestions re Summoners.  I use
    > demons frequently in my campaign.  They are one of the elements of DQ
    > that really sets it apart from other systems.
    >
    > --Loki
    >
    >       -----Original Message-----
    >       From: Rodger Thorm [mailto:rodger_thorm@yahoo.com]
    >       Sent: Mon 4/7/2003 9:10 AM
    >       To: dqn-list@yahoogroups.com
    >       Cc:
    >       Subject: Re: [DQN-list] Reference to Arcane Wisdom
    >      
    >      
    >
    >       Oh, yes.
    >      
    >       Arcane Wisdom was on the boards and under way.  They
    >       fully intended to have that as part of the whole canon
    >       of DQ, even to the point of making reference to it, as
    >       you just discovered.  I've had several good PCs who
    >       were Summoners.  The opportunity to mess with them
    >       makes for some fantastic fun; and if you are going to
    >       have someone playing a Summoner, I can give you a
    >       whole bunch of suggestions. ;->
    >      
    >       One of the PCs in my current campaign is a Summoner,
    >       although he tries to do very little with it.
    >      
    >       This whole thread on the book of Thoth has also gotten
    >       me thinking about a new thread for my campaign (if we
    >       ever can get together again; it's been since January
    >       that we've been trying to set a date, and no one is
    >       cooperating).
    >      
    >         --RT
    >      
    >       --- jcorey30 <john@dragonquestadventures.com> wrote:
    >       > You may have noticed from my Book of Toth post, that
    >       > after 20 years with this game, I am just begining to
    >       > discover the college of Greater Summonings.  In
    >       > reading it recently, I saw a reference to Arcaen
    >       > Wisdom.  I knew there were references to it in The
    >       > Enchanted Wood, but I had never noticed them in the
    >       > rule book before.  I was stunned.  It was the part
    >       > where they discuss the protective disks that
    >       > Summoners can use, and how they must be made by a
    >       > member of the college of shaping magics.
    >       >
    >       >
    >      
    >      
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    Group: dqn-list Message: 886 From: Greg Walters Date: 4/9/2003
    Subject: Re: ...things in a campaign
    I think Demons in a DQ campaign are an element that adds suspense.
    Also, in my opinion, including the existence of 'non-fallen angels'
    could be spectacular as well as 'accurate.'

    By the way, I recommend Loki's campaign (Hi Loki!) - I'd still like
    to relocate back to the San Francisco area, someday (my wife is ok
    with the idea, and there are definitely electronics jobs up there!).

    Anyway, if I GM, I everything exists (think about that, for an
    instant). It is simply a matter of the choices of the NPCs, PCs, and
    of naturally occurring phenomena as to what happenings there are. Of
    course, that means that, somewhere in the setting, are all of
    the 'colleges.'

    I put 'colleges' in quotes, because I think that a particular spell
    caster might not have come from a local university anymore than magic
    shops are on 'every corner.' But, who knows, there may be such
    things in a few places...

    "Many things that were are now lost..."


    - Greg W.


    --- In dqn-list@yahoogroups.com, John Corey <john@d...> wrote:
    > I don't have so many, because I am just discovering the college
    myself.
    > But I had campaign thoughts on this college and one other.
    >
    > If you were to make Greater Summonings, and lesser summonings the
    only
    > two... you could create a campaign resembling the world of Elric.
    > Maybe shaping too.
    >
    > Or you could take naming, and use it exclusively, and play Earthsea.
    >
    >
    > On Wednesday, April 9, 2003, at 03:49 AM, Loki Freyr wrote:
    >
    > > I would love to hear some of your suggestions re Summoners.  I
    use
    > > demons frequently in my campaign.  They are one of the elements
    of DQ
    > > that really sets it apart from other systems.
    > >
    > > --Loki
    > >
    > >       -----Original Message-----
    > >       From: Rodger Thorm [mailto:rodger_thorm@y...]
    > >       Sent: Mon 4/7/2003 9:10 AM
    > >       To: dqn-list@yahoogroups.com
    > >       Cc:
    > >       Subject: Re: [DQN-list] Reference to Arcane Wisdom
    > >      
    > >      
    > >
    > >       Oh, yes.
    > >      
    > >       Arcane Wisdom was on the boards and under way.  They
    > >       fully intended to have that as part of the whole canon
    > >       of DQ, even to the point of making reference to it, as
    > >       you just discovered.  I've had several good PCs who
    > >       were Summoners.  The opportunity to mess with them
    > >       makes for some fantastic fun; and if you are going to
    > >       have someone playing a Summoner, I can give you a
    > >       whole bunch of suggestions. ;->
    > >      
    > >       One of the PCs in my current campaign is a Summoner,
    > >       although he tries to do very little with it.
    > >      
    > >       This whole thread on the book of Thoth has also gotten
    > >       me thinking about a new thread for my campaign (if we
    > >       ever can get together again; it's been since January
    > >       that we've been trying to set a date, and no one is
    > >       cooperating).
    > >      
    > >         --RT
    > >      
    > >       --- jcorey30 <john@d...> wrote:
    > >       > You may have noticed from my Book of Toth post, that
    > >       > after 20 years with this game, I am just begining to
    > >       > discover the college of Greater Summonings.  In
    > >       > reading it recently, I saw a reference to Arcaen
    > >       > Wisdom.  I knew there were references to it in The
    > >       > Enchanted Wood, but I had never noticed them in the
    > >       > rule book before.  I was stunned.  It was the part
    > >       > where they discuss the protective disks that
    > >       > Summoners can use, and how they must be made by a
    > >       > member of the college of shaping magics.
    > >       >
    > >       >
    > >      
    > >      
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    > >       Yahoo! Tax Center - File online, calculators, forms, and
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    > >       Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
    > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
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    > <image.tiff>
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    Group: dqn-list Message: 887 From: David Chappell Date: 4/9/2003
    Subject: Re: Reference to Arcane Wisdom
    --- In dqn-list@yahoogroups.com, "jcorey30" <john@d...> wrote:
    > You may have noticed from my Book of Toth post, that after 20 years
    with this game, I am just begining to discover the college of Greater
    Summonings. In reading it recently, I saw a reference to Arcaen
    Wisdom. I knew there were references to it in The Enchanted Wood,
    but I had never noticed them in the rule book before. I was
    stunned. It was the part where they discuss the protective disks
    that Summoners can use, and how they must be made by a member of the
    college of shaping magics.

    There is an alternative if you do not use the Shaping Magics rules.
    The first edition boxed set of DragonQuest did not mention Shaping.
    It instead said that the shields could be made by an alchemist of
    appropriate rank. I don't have my copy with me right now, but if you
    are interested I could look it up later and post the ranks required
    for the shields of each demonic riutal.
    Group: dqn-list Message: 888 From: Anthony N. Emmel Date: 4/9/2003
    Subject: Re: ...things in a campaign

    Chello!

     Greg Walters <Greg_G_Walters@email.com> wrote:

    I think Demons in a DQ campaign are an element that adds suspense. 
    Also, in my opinion, including the existence of 'non-fallen angels'
    could be spectacular as well as 'accurate.'

    Well, I've ben toying around with a College of Angelic Summonings for a few years, but don't have anything all that spectacular yet, though.

    Maybe I should get to work....;)

    Tony



    Anthony N. Emmel

    HMGMA# TX-1-00162-01

    ��There are no happy endings,� Cerin told her. �There are no real endings ever--happy or otherwise. We all have our own stories which are just a part of the one Story that binds both this world and Faerie�.all the while the Story just goes on.��

    Charles de Lint, Dreams Underfoot



    Do you Yahoo!?
    Yahoo! Tax Center - File online, calculators, forms, and more

    Group: dqn-list Message: 889 From: S.M. Kelley Date: 4/9/2003
    Subject: Re: ...things in a campaign

    Anthony, I thought I recognized you from CGG! I'd be very interested to see that particular college of magic.

     

     "Anthony N. Emmel" <lord_kjeran@yahoo.com> wrote:

    Chello!

     Greg Walters <Greg_G_Walters@email.com> wrote:

    I think Demons in a DQ campaign are an element that adds suspense. 
    Also, in my opinion, including the existence of 'non-fallen angels'
    could be spectacular as well as 'accurate.'

    Well, I've ben toying around with a College of Angelic Summonings for a few years, but don't have anything all that spectacular yet, though.

    Maybe I should get to work....;)

    Tony



    Anthony N. Emmel

    HMGMA# TX-1-00162-01

    ��There are no happy endings,� Cerin told her. �There are no real endings ever--happy or otherwise. We all have our own stories which are just a part of the one Story that binds both this world and Faerie�.all the while the Story just goes on.��

    Charles de Lint, Dreams Underfoot



    Do you Yahoo!?
    Yahoo! Tax Center - File online, calculators, forms, and more

    Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

    Group: dqn-list Message: 890 From: J. K. Hoffman Date: 4/10/2003
    Subject: Re: Reference to Arcane Wisdom
    Well, I'd sure like to know more about that rule! The College of
    Shaping Magics always made me a little dizzy as a GM. Too many ways to
    abuse power, in my opinion.
    In any case, I'd sure love to hear more about the alchemist rule
    regarding the shields.

    Thanks,
    Jim

    David Chappell wrote:
    >
    > There is an alternative if you do not use the Shaping Magics rules.
    > The first edition boxed set of DragonQuest did not mention Shaping.
    > It instead said that the shields could be made by an alchemist of
    > appropriate rank. I don't have my copy with me right now, but if you
    > are interested I could look it up later and post the ranks required
    > for the shields of each demonic riutal.

    --
    "It's better to light one candle
    than to curse the darkness."
    -Chinese Proverb and The Motto of the Christophers
    http://www.christophers.org
    Group: dqn-list Message: 891 From: John Corey Date: 4/10/2003
    Subject: Re: Reference to Arcane Wisdom
    I looked it up and could not find the rule. It almost appears as if a
    paragraph is missing from my copy of the 1st edition. It starts with
    "Adepts are not provided shields..." but does not mention alchemists.

    On Thursday, April 10, 2003, at 07:32 AM, J. K. Hoffman wrote:

    > Well, I'd sure like to know more about that rule!  The College of
    > Shaping Magics always made me a little dizzy as a GM.  Too many ways to
    > abuse power, in my opinion.
    > In any case, I'd sure love to hear more about the alchemist rule
    > regarding the shields.
    >
    > Thanks,
    > Jim
    >
    > David Chappell wrote:
    > >
    > > There is an alternative if you do not use the Shaping Magics rules. 
    > > The first edition boxed set of DragonQuest did not mention Shaping.
    > > It instead said that the shields could be made by an alchemist of
    > > appropriate rank. I don't have my copy with me right now, but if you
    > > are interested I could look it up later and post the ranks required
    > > for the shields of each demonic riutal.
    >
    > --
    > "It's better to light one candle
    >    than to curse the darkness."
    > -Chinese Proverb and The Motto of the Christophers
    >                       http://www.christophers.org
    >
    >
    <image.tiff>
    >
    >
    > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
    Group: dqn-list Message: 892 From: Schubert, David Date: 4/10/2003
    Subject: Magic shops
    Magic shops appear in Harry Potter books.

    Dave
    Group: dqn-list Message: 893 From: Rodger Thorm Date: 4/10/2003
    Subject: Cost of Magical Services
    I said I had another question; here it is:

    Along the same lines as the discussion about magic shops and magic-rich versus magic-poor, do any of you have standard rates for various magical services?

    I finally made a note for myself regarding the cost to have a counterspell for Black Magics cast. In my campaign world, the one source for that they have located charges 500 SP.

    There are some other services that adventuring types may want to call on fairly regularly, such as identification of magic items, reading magical texts, healing spells, invested counterspells, invested items generally, truespeaking, remove curse, etc. The rules offer no guideline for pricing these, which is both good and bad. It doesn't force you into an economic model that doesn't work for your campaign, but at the same time, it forces the GM to come up with his own prices for these services. And that is something that I have never kept track of before; I always did it rather haphazardly, but now I am trying to set a more stable and consistent set of answers.

    So, my question is this:
    What do various magical services cost in your campaign?

    Thanks,
    Rodger

    -------Original Message-------
    ....

    This leads to a whole other question, which I will post separately.

    --Rodger
    Group: dqn-list Message: 894 From: jcorey30 Date: 4/10/2003
    Subject: Re: Magic shops
    Good point! I think the unspoken rule here that we have all been
    following is a more "serious" fantasy world. Not that Harry Potter
    is not serious, but it takes a more (for lack of a better word)
    fanciful approach. The same could be said of the Xanth books, where
    everyone has a spell.

    I guess I would say, if you are gonna have a magic shop - Go all the
    way. But if you are trying to have a low magic campaign, then you
    can't have a magic shop on every corner.

    Which I guess goes wihtout saying


    --- In dqn-list@yahoogroups.com, "Schubert, David" <deschubert@e...>
    wrote:
    > Magic shops appear in Harry Potter books.
    >
    > Dave
    Group: dqn-list Message: 895 From: jcorey30 Date: 4/10/2003
    Subject: Re: Cost of Magical Services
    I don't. But thanks to you Rodger, I have some more homework ;-)

    --- In dqn-list@yahoogroups.com, Rodger Thorm <dqn@e...> wrote:
    > I said I had another question; here it is:
    >
    > Along the same lines as the discussion about magic shops and magic-
    rich versus magic-poor, do any of you have standard rates for various
    magical services?
    >
    > I finally made a note for myself regarding the cost to have a
    counterspell for Black Magics cast. In my campaign world, the one
    source for that they have located charges 500 SP.
    >
    > There are some other services that adventuring types may want to
    call on fairly regularly, such as identification of magic items,
    reading magical texts, healing spells, invested counterspells,
    invested items generally, truespeaking, remove curse, etc. The rules
    offer no guideline for pricing these, which is both good and bad. It
    doesn't force you into an economic model that doesn't work for your
    campaign, but at the same time, it forces the GM to come up with his
    own prices for these services. And that is something that I have
    never kept track of before; I always did it rather haphazardly, but
    now I am trying to set a more stable and consistent set of answers.
    >
    > So, my question is this:
    > What do various magical services cost in your campaign?
    >
    > Thanks,
    > Rodger
    >
    > -------Original Message-------
    > ....
    >
    > This leads to a whole other question, which I will post separately.
    >
    > --Rodger
    Group: dqn-list Message: 896 From: Jason Winter Date: 4/10/2003
    Subject: Re: Cost of Magical Services
    Here is what I use in my campaign. Hope you find it useful. (I'm
    cut/pasting this out of a word doc, hope it survives the journey.) Also
    note, just because something is listed with a cost, doesn't mean a player
    can just walk in to a town and purchase something. There is really only
    one town in my whole world where something like that might happen (The city
    of Eidolon in the Shadow World campaign setting) and such things happening
    are extremely rare (for stuff like buying a spell). It was just all listed
    so that if/when it does come up we have hard rules for it instead of
    winging it every time.

    If there are any questions on what's below, don't hesitate to ask.



    Bell, Book and Candle Wgt Cost Bulk

    Talisman (per +1 cast chance) 25 x Mult x Bonus A
    Spell Point Battery 200 + (P x 50) A
    Book (50 pages, 8.5 x 11) 3 500 A
    Book (50 pages, 17 x 22) 5 1000 A
    Writing
    supplies 1 38 A
    Blank paper (8.5 x 11) (per sheet) 1 A
    Primer Cost/500 Mult x MaxRank A
    Ritual
    components 1 100 A

    Talismans Talismans give a bonus to cast chance and must be bought for a
    specific spell or discipline. The GM may also allow talismans that
    increase range or duration. Maximum cast bonus for a talisman is 10. Cost
    is 25 times the base multiple of the spell or discipline, times the
    talisman bonus. Talismans can also be purchased for rituals though the
    cost is doubled. Talismans must be attuned to, and the time required for
    attunement is equal to 3 days times the bonus cast chance. It is also
    possible to be attuned to more than one talisman at a time, although only
    one talisman may be worn at any given time or all will lose their bonus's
    until enough are removed so that only one is currently being worn. The
    maximum number of talismans that a mage may be attuned to is equal to (MA /
    5; round down) + (Mage Level/ 5; round down).

    Spell Point Battery A spell point battery is a temporary vessel of spell
    points. Once the points are gone, the vessel disintegrates into a fine
    powder. The form of a battery can vary widely. The cost is 500 silver
    base, plus 100 additional silver for each spell point in the battery. The
    maximum number of spell points that a battery can hold is equal to the
    level of the Alchemist making the battery. Thus, most batteries will have
    somewhere between 5 and 12 spell points. These items must be attuned to
    before being able to be used. The time required to attune to these items
    is equal to 1 day per spell point stored in the item. A mage may only be
    attuned to one of these items at a time.

    Primers Primers are books that teach a skill. In game terms, the character
    must still spend the experience points to learn the skill, but training
    time is computed as if the character had an instructor. A primer is the
    equivalent of a rank 0 instructor. If the primer is used by someone to
    teach a skill, it adds 2 ranks to the teachers instruction skill (or
    confers rank 2 if unranked in instruction skill). All primers have a
    maximum rank that they are good for. For example, a rank 14 primer can be
    used to learn a skill up to rank 14, but is useless beyond that. A primer
    is good for only a single skill. The cost of a primer is equal to the
    multiple of the skill times maximum rank (or possibly more for magic or
    esoteric skills). Primers also exist for common professions. A character
    must be able to read the language of the primer at rank 6 or higher to use
    it and must also have all other requisite equipment (i.e., if using a
    primer to learn horsemanship, the character must have a horse).

    The weight of a primer is equal to the multiple, times maximum rank,
    divided by 500, in pounds. Note that a primer could actually be more than
    one physical book. Each book generally weighs not more than 5 to 10
    lbs. Thus, a primer that ends up weighing 12 lbs is actually 2 or 3
    physical books weighing 3 to 6 lbs each.

    Primers may also exist for spells but the cost is usually higher,
    sometimes double. Primers are only available for commonly available spells.

    Primers can only be purchased with GM approval. As with most items,
    Primers deteriorate with time and extensive use. A character who wishes to
    sell a Primer will usually get, at best, half the price they paid for
    it. In many cases Primers contain reference tables that someone learning a
    skill may remove from the book. Thus, if a character buys a used Primer
    that has not been reconditioned, they may get reduced effect (or no effect)
    from the Primer.

    Ritual Components Each general knowledge ritual requires one set of ritual
    components while Special knowledge rituals require two sets. Ritual
    components are not ritual-specific unless the ritual specifically states
    that a certain ritual component is required (e.g. Ritual of Identification
    requires a 100 sp pearl).




    Common Magic * Wgt Cost Bulk

    Healing Potion 1d2 .5 75 A
    Healing Potion 1d10 .5 400 A
    Healing Potion 2d4+2 .5 500 A
    Healing Potion 2d10 .5 900 A
    Healing Potion 3d8+3 .5 1500 A
    Healing Potion 4d10 .5 2200 A
    Healing Potion Full Heal .5 4500 A
    Potion of Attunement .5 Varies A
    Potion of Fire Resistance .5 500 A
    Potion of Flying .5 1000 A
    Wheybread (loaf) 1 100 A

    * You must obtain permission from the GM to buy items of common
    magic. These items will generally be easily available in a large city but
    may not be available in a small city or town.

    Potion of Attunement - The cost of a Potion of Attunement is 1000 silver,
    plus 50 times the bonus (thus, a potion that confers a +80 bonus would cost
    5,000 silver).

    Potion of Fire Resistance Grants +20 to magic saves vs. fire. Immune to
    normal fire. Magical fire damage is reduced by 50% is save is failed, or
    75% if save is made. Protection lasts for 10 minutes.

    Potion of Flying Imbiber can fly at a speed of 10 MPH for 1 hour.

    Wheybread Wheybread comes in many flavors but all have the same magical
    properties. One slice of wheybread will provide full sustenance for one
    person for one full day. A loaf of wheybread contains 10
    slices. Whyebread is magically preserved to last for 5 years before it
    will begin to spoil.



    Buying Spells

    There are three ways to buy spells from a mage. In all cases, permission
    must be obtained from the GM to buy the spell. The GM will check to see if
    a mage is available that might have the spell and whether the mage is
    willing to sell the spell. The prices listed can be used for guidance in
    determining cost. It is certainly possible that the mage may charge more,
    maybe even a lot more, to buy the spell. In the case of counterspells, it
    is highly unlikely that a mage will sell a counterspell to his own college
    unless it is in his best interest to do so. All costs listed are in silver.

    1. Buy a spell to write in a spell book.
    2. Buy a spell invested in an item.
    3. Have the mage cast a spell directly.
    4. Pay for an Attunement Ritual.

    Buy a spell to write in a Spell Book
    Spell or Ritual
    Cost

    General Knowledge Spell
    20 x EXP Multiple

    General Knowledge Ritual
    40 x EXP Multiple

    Special Knowledge Spell
    40 x EXP Multiple

    Special Knowledge Ritual
    80 x EXP Multiple

    Counterspell
    5000

    Circle of Protection vs. GK Spells
    5000

    Circle of Protection vs. SK Spells
    7000

    Circle of Protection vs. GK Disciplines
    5000

    Circle of Protection vs. SK Disciplines
    7000

    Circle of Protection vs. Minor Clerical Magic
    5000

    Circle of Protection vs. Major Clerical Magic
    7000

    Circle of Protection vs. Ritual Magic
    8000

    Circle of Protection vs. Illusions
    7000

    Circle of Protection vs. Summonings
    5000

    Circle of Protection vs. Detection
    8000

    Circle of Protection vs. Undead/Lycanthropes
    7000

    Circle of Protection vs. Black Magic
    7000

    Circle of Protection vs. Missiles
    5000

    Circle of Protection vs. Animals
    2000

    Circle of Protection vs. Elementals
    4000

    Circle of Protection vs. Gargoyles
    3000

    Circle of Protection vs. Efreeti/Djinn
    5000

    Circle of Protection vs. Constructs
    6000

    Circle of Protection vs. Demons
    7000

    Circle of Protection vs. Faeries
    3000

    Circle of Protection vs. Dragons
    7000

    Greater Circle of Protection
    10,000


    Buy a spell invested in an Item The cost to buy a spell invested in an item
    is 200 + (EXP Multiple x Rank). Thus, to have a mage invest a spell with a
    multiple of 250 that he is rank 8 in would cost 2200 silver (200 + (250 x
    8)) = 2200. This assumes that the buyer is providing the item for the
    investment (BMR E). If not, add 250 silver to the cost.

    Have the mage cast a spell directly The cost to have a mage cast a spell on
    the buyer is (100 + (Half EXP Multiple x Rank). Thus, to have a mage cast
    a spell with a multiple of 250 that he is rank 8 in would cost 1100 silver
    (100 + (125 x 8)) = 1100.

    Pay for an Attunement Ritual The cost to have a Shaper perform an
    attunement ritual is 300 x Rank silver. This improves chance of attunement
    by 3% per rank. Shapers cast chance is base 25% (+3% per Rank; + MA 15).





    At 12:46 PM 4/10/2003, you wrote:
    >I said I had another question; here it is:
    >
    >Along the same lines as the discussion about magic shops and magic-rich
    >versus magic-poor, do any of you have standard rates for various magical
    >services?
    >
    >I finally made a note for myself regarding the cost to have a counterspell
    >for Black Magics cast. In my campaign world, the one source for that they
    >have located charges 500 SP.
    >
    >There are some other services that adventuring types may want to call on
    >fairly regularly, such as identification of magic items, reading magical
    >texts, healing spells, invested counterspells, invested items generally,
    >truespeaking, remove curse, etc. The rules offer no guideline for pricing
    >these, which is both good and bad. It doesn't force you into an economic
    >model that doesn't work for your campaign, but at the same time, it forces
    >the GM to come up with his own prices for these services. And that is
    >something that I have never kept track of before; I always did it rather
    >haphazardly, but now I am trying to set a more stable and consistent set
    >of answers.
    >
    >So, my question is this:
    > What do various magical services cost in your campaign?
    >
    >Thanks,
    > Rodger
    >
    >-------Original Message-------
    >....
    >
    >This leads to a whole other question, which I will post separately.
    >
    > --Rodger
    >
    >Yahoo! Groups
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    Jason Winter
    Alarian@direcway.com
    http://www.darkrealms.com/~alarian/
    Group: dqn-list Message: 897 From: Bruce Probst Date: 4/11/2003
    Subject: Re: Reference to Arcane Wisdom
    On Thu, 10 Apr 2003 07:45:43 -0400, John Corey
    <john@dragonquestadventures.com> wrote:

    >I looked it up and could not find the rule. It almost appears as if a
    >paragraph is missing from my copy of the 1st edition. It starts with
    >"Adepts are not provided shields..." but does not mention alchemists.

    I think you'll find it's under the description for each type of shield,
    which in turn is found at the beginning of each Demonic Summoning ritual.

    ----------------------------------------------------------------
    Bruce Probst bprobst@netspace.net.au ICQ 6563830
    Canberra, Australia MSTie #72759 SCA #80160
    "I like it VERY MUCH."
    ASL FAQ http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/mantis/ASLFAQ
    Group: dqn-list Message: 898 From: Rodger Thorm Date: 4/11/2003
    Subject: Re: Magic Shops
    Harry Potter is an interesting case in light of the whole magic-rich/magic-poor discussion.

    For most people (muggles), it is a magic-poor (read: nonexistent) world, but for the wizards and witches, it is magic-rich, to the point of having magic shops, as well as magic candy, magic messages, etc. all readily available.

    Could be an interesting approach to take in a campaign; if you're a mage, you know where to buy things, but otherwise, forget it.

    --RT

    -------Original Message-------
    Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2003 18:40:27 -0400
    From: "Schubert, David" <deschubert@earthlink.net>
    Subject: Magic shops

    Magic shops appear in Harry Potter books.

    Dave
    Group: dqn-list Message: 899 From: rthorm Date: 4/12/2003
    Subject: Alchemist or Shaper
    I had to look this up and see for myself, and it's true.

    In First Edition DQ, the discussion at the beginning of each order of
    demons states that a shield can be created by an Alchemist of suitable
    rank. And, the rank needed varies with the type of shield being
    created; for the demonic Dukes, the Alchemist must be rank 5 or
    higher, but for the demonic Kings, it is rank 8 or higher.

    I think that I am going to use this as an acceptable alternative in my
    own campaign, and allow both Alchemists and Shapers to create the
    shields. Alchemists will probably have to pay a higher cost (1.25 to
    1.5 multiplier), but since Alchemists are easier to find than Shapers,
    the premium may be worth it to a Summoner.

    Here's a quick table of 1st edition Summoner shield info. Most of it
    is the same in 2nd ed., except for the Alchemist Rank:

    Dukes Rank 5 3000+ sp 3 months
    Princes Rank 5 3000+ sp 3 months
    Presidents Rank 6 4000+ sp 4 months
    Earls Rank 6 5000+ sp 4 months
    Marquis Rank 7 7000 sp 5 months
    Kings Rank 8 15000 sp 6 months

    I think I'm going to allow an Alchemist to create a shield for 1.5
    times the listed cost (1.25x for base costs over 5000 sp). If the
    Alchemist is a player character, creation of the shield will take one
    of their training/practice slots (although they will be able to credit
    some of the time for study and practice to increase rank in Alchemist).

    --Rodger Thorm

    --- In dqn-list@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Probst <bprobst@n...> wrote:
    > On Thu, 10 Apr 2003 07:45:43 -0400, John Corey
    > <john@d...> wrote:
    >
    > >I looked it up and could not find the rule. It almost appears as if a
    > >paragraph is missing from my copy of the 1st edition. It starts with
    > >"Adepts are not provided shields..." but does not mention alchemists.
    >
    > I think you'll find it's under the description for each type of shield,
    > which in turn is found at the beginning of each Demonic Summoning
    ritual.
    Group: dqn-list Message: 900 From: J. K. Hoffman Date: 4/12/2003
    Subject: Re: Alchemist or Shaper
    Rodger,

    You ROCK! Thank you for finding this and posting it! That's what I
    love about this group.

    God bless the Internet.
    Thanks again,
    Jim

    rthorm wrote:
    > I had to look this up and see for myself, and it's true.
    >
    > In First Edition DQ, the discussion at the beginning of each order of
    > demons states that a shield can be created by an Alchemist of suitable
    > rank. And, the rank needed varies with the type of shield being
    > created; for the demonic Dukes, the Alchemist must be rank 5 or
    > higher, but for the demonic Kings, it is rank 8 or higher.
    >
    > I think that I am going to use this as an acceptable alternative in my
    > own campaign, and allow both Alchemists and Shapers to create the
    > shields. Alchemists will probably have to pay a higher cost (1.25 to
    > 1.5 multiplier), but since Alchemists are easier to find than Shapers,
    > the premium may be worth it to a Summoner.
    >
    > Here's a quick table of 1st edition Summoner shield info. Most of it
    > is the same in 2nd ed., except for the Alchemist Rank:
    >
    > Dukes Rank 5 3000+ sp 3 months
    > Princes Rank 5 3000+ sp 3 months
    > Presidents Rank 6 4000+ sp 4 months
    > Earls Rank 6 5000+ sp 4 months
    > Marquis Rank 7 7000 sp 5 months
    > Kings Rank 8 15000 sp 6 months
    >
    > I think I'm going to allow an Alchemist to create a shield for 1.5
    > times the listed cost (1.25x for base costs over 5000 sp). If the
    > Alchemist is a player character, creation of the shield will take one
    > of their training/practice slots (although they will be able to credit
    > some of the time for study and practice to increase rank in Alchemist).
    >
    > --Rodger Thorm


    --
    "It's better to light one candle
    than to curse the darkness."
    -Chinese Proverb and The Motto of the Christophers
    http://www.christophers.org
    Group: dqn-list Message: 901 From: D. Cameron King Date: 4/12/2003
    Subject: obscure references in DQ
    The Book of Toth discussion jogged my memory of another tantalizing
    reference never (AFAIK) fleshed out: the Magician skill possessed by
    Loklar in the Palance of Ontoncle adventure. I've always wanted to
    know what that skill would have been like.



    _________________________________________________________________
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    Group: dqn-list Message: 902 From: David Chappell Date: 4/14/2003
    Subject: Re: Alchemist or Shaper
    Sorry it took me so long to get back to this, been really busy and
    had to get the books out of storage. Luckily, someone else had it
    handy and posted it. As you say, that's what is great about this
    group.

    --- In dqn-list@yahoogroups.com, "J. K. Hoffman" <ryumaou@s...> wrote:
    > Rodger,
    >
    > You ROCK! Thank you for finding this and posting it! That's what
    I
    > love about this group.
    >
    > God bless the Internet.
    > Thanks again,
    > Jim
    >
    > rthorm wrote:
    > > I had to look this up and see for myself, and it's true.
    > >
    > > In First Edition DQ, the discussion at the beginning of each
    order of
    > > demons states that a shield can be created by an Alchemist of
    suitable
    > > rank. And, the rank needed varies with the type of shield being
    > > created; for the demonic Dukes, the Alchemist must be rank 5 or
    > > higher, but for the demonic Kings, it is rank 8 or higher.
    > >
    > > I think that I am going to use this as an acceptable alternative
    in my
    > > own campaign, and allow both Alchemists and Shapers to create the
    > > shields. Alchemists will probably have to pay a higher cost
    (1.25 to
    > > 1.5 multiplier), but since Alchemists are easier to find than
    Shapers,
    > > the premium may be worth it to a Summoner.
    > >
    > > Here's a quick table of 1st edition Summoner shield info. Most
    of it
    > > is the same in 2nd ed., except for the Alchemist Rank:
    > >
    > > Dukes Rank 5 3000+ sp 3 months
    > > Princes Rank 5 3000+ sp 3 months
    > > Presidents Rank 6 4000+ sp 4 months
    > > Earls Rank 6 5000+ sp 4 months
    > > Marquis Rank 7 7000 sp 5 months
    > > Kings Rank 8 15000 sp 6 months
    > >
    > > I think I'm going to allow an Alchemist to create a shield for 1.5
    > > times the listed cost (1.25x for base costs over 5000 sp). If the
    > > Alchemist is a player character, creation of the shield will take
    one
    > > of their training/practice slots (although they will be able to
    credit
    > > some of the time for study and practice to increase rank in
    Alchemist).
    > >
    > > --Rodger Thorm
    >
    >
    > --
    > "It's better to light one candle
    > than to curse the darkness."
    > -Chinese Proverb and The Motto of the Christophers
    > http://www.christophers.org
    Group: dqn-list Message: 903 From: Russell Whyte Date: 4/14/2003
    Subject: Magician skill
    The magician skill was printed in an old Dragon mag. Unfortunately, the DQ stuff
    is at home and I'm at work at the moment, so details are a bit fuzzy. The basic
    idea was a skill, similar in cost to Alchemist? where each Rank allowed you to
    select a spell from any college desired. Don't remember if special knowledge
    spells were allowed or not, I'll look it up and post a followup tonight.
    Obviously not as powerful as a full adept, it was a more flexible alternative
    for someone who wanted to play a "dabbler" in magic.

    Russell
    rwhyte@yorku.ca
    Group: dqn-list Message: 904 From: Bruce Probst Date: 4/14/2003
    Subject: Re: Magician skill
    On Mon, 14 Apr 2003 08:40:15 -0400, "Russell Whyte"
    <Russell.Whyte@mail.atkinson.yorku.ca> wrote:

    >The magician skill was printed in an old Dragon mag.

    I can't recall any "Magician" skill being referenced in "Palace Of
    Ontoncle", but then it's been a while since I looked. Assuming that it is
    there, I would guess it was some discarded remnant of the DQ playtest -- PoO
    was used as a playtest scenario before publication of DQ 1st ed.

    The Magician "skill" published in Dragon would have been a different beast
    altogether. It was intended as a substitute for being in a College, whereas
    Loklar in PoO is very definitely a (Greater) Summoner.

    ----------------------------------------------------------------
    Bruce Probst bprobst@netspace.net.au ICQ 6563830
    Canberra, Australia MSTie #72759 SCA #80160
    "Ah ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha - you're STUCK HERE!"
    ASL FAQ http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/mantis/ASLFAQ
    Group: dqn-list Message: 905 From: CJC Work Date: 4/14/2003
    Subject: Re: obscure references in DQ
    Attachments :
      I found this the other day if its what you were looking for, a reprint from
      a Dragon Magazine I believe. I hope it helps.
      Cheers Chris


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      Group: dqn-list Message: 906 From: rthorm Date: 4/15/2003
      Subject: Re: obscure references in DQ
      Thanks for sending the article Chris.

      For those of you who didn't get the attachment, that Magician article
      is in the dqn-list group's Files section:
      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dqn-list/files/DragonQuestMagician.pdf

      All of the Dragon Magazine articles on DragonQuest were put into PDF
      format and made available, and plain-text versions are being provided
      in the DragonQuest Newsletter over the coming year. And if you want
      the PDFs, those are all in the Files section right now.

      Since this issue came up in discussion, I will make 'The Versatile
      Magician' the next article in the series in the Newsletter.

      --Rodger Thorm


      --- In dqn-list@yahoogroups.com, "CJC Work" <cjcwork@h...> wrote:
      > I found this the other day if its what you were looking for, a
      reprint from
      > a Dragon Magazine I believe. I hope it helps.
      > Cheers Chris