This is presently just a test group for DragonQuest Newsletter discussion. We'll see how it goes/if it goes. Articles will still be posted through the Newsletter, but discussion can now take place through this forum as well.

Group Manager: dqn-list-owner@egroups.com

To subscribe, send a message to dqn-list-subscribe@egroups.com or go to the e-group's home page at http://www.egroups.com/list/dqn-list

Here is a test message for this DragonQuest list.

I haven't contacted the group yet to let them know that the list is here. That will go along with the next DQN.

If eGroups archives things indefinitely, we'll have a base of messages.

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I used the email subscribe method and it seemed to work like a charm


John

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===========================================================
||
|| DRAGONQUEST Newsletter March 1999
||
|| Volume 5 / Number 3
===========================================================

The DQ Newsletter is for discussions of the DragonQuest role-
playing game. The key addresses you need to know are:

Rodger Thorm (Editor, Article Submissions, Etc.)
dqn@ntsource.com

All articles are copyrighted property of their respective authors.
Reproducing or republishing an article, in whole or in part, in any
other forum requires permission of the author or the moderator.

The DragonQuest Newsletter website is at:
http://www.ntsource.com/~psproefrock/dqn.html
[if you are typing it, note that the server _IS_ case-sensitive!]
This site will be updated soon. It will contain the most recent issue
of the newsletter as well as links to (ftp) archives and other
DragonQuest related sites. I'm still working on this, but recently the
DQN-list has been the priority.

The DragonQuest Newsletter listserv information can be found at:
http://www.egroups.com/list/dqn-list/

-----------------------------------------------------------------
C O N T E N T S [v5/n03]
=================================================================

Editorial � Expanding the Newsletter

Letters -- David Mason
Chris Short
Rodger Thorm

The DragonQuest Players Association Update -- John Rauchert

Simple Swimming Skill -- Ransig Thornquell

Arms and Armour of Quality -- Jason Winter

v5n02 Survey Results

Advertisements

DragonQuest URLs

Survey

-----------------------------------------------------------------
EDITORIAL: Expanding the Newsletter
=================================================================

About a week ago, I discovered several websites offering free email
list services. I have only made a brief exploration of the workings of
these services so far, but I am intrigued and excited by what I have
seen so far. I can only ask why didn't someone tell me about this
sooner!?

In light of this, the DragonQuest Newsletter is expanding in a
couple of ways. First, and most importantly, I am adding a listserv to
the Newsletter service. Adding. This will be in addition to the
current DragonQuest Newsletter. ** The Newsletter is NOT going to
change its present format and form of distribution.** But having a
listserv will allow discussions about recent articles, as well as other
DQ related information to go back and forth at a faster pace than the
once-a-month (at best) digest format presently allows. I presently have
set up the DQN-list to require all postings be approved, just to make
sure that we don't get a lot of off-topic postings or other problems.
Articles, letters to the editor, and other items with real content will
still be reserved for the Newsletter (this publication), but other
discussion and new topic threads will be regularly posted in the DQN-
list.

I will be sending out an invitation by email to all Newsletter
subscribers to subscribe to the DQN-list as well. There is no charge
for this service. Like the DQ Newsletter, the DQN-list will be freely
distributed. You will not be automatically added to the DQN-list
(though eventually I think the two subscriber lists will be one, this is
still experimental). You can also subscribe by visiting the DQN-list
website at:
http://www.egroups.com/list/dqn-list/
or by sending email to:
dqn-list-subscribe@egroups.com

Please let me know what you think of the new DQN-list, and let me
know of any problems that arise. It will be a process of trial and
error (and hopefully not too much error) to get it working well. I
don't know too much more about it than you do at this point, but I
believe that it can be a useful addition to the DragonQuest community.
I suggest that you keep a copy of any postings for a while, at least
until you are sure it has been successfully posted.

I would also like to solicit a couple of you to act as quasi-
official archivists for the DQN-list. Another one of the free list
sites I was exploring seems to have gone offline already. I believe
that eGroups isn't going to go away, but it would be good to have
backups just in case.

And let me repeat one more to be perfectly clear: The existing
DragonQuest Newsletter is NOT being stopped. It is being supplemented
with the new DQN-list. And both the existing DragonQuest Newsletter and
the new DQN-list will continue to be free services.

Rodger Thorm
DQN Editor


------------------------_L_E_T_T_E_R_S_--------------------------
=================================================================

Please don't stop the newsletter format and go to a listserve. I can't
get at them!

David Mason <MasonD@ames.vic.edu.au>

[I think that regardless of any other changes that take place with the
Newsletter, we will always keep the 'bare-bones' email version.
Particularly, a listserv should supplement, but not replace, the
existing Newsletter format. The DragonQuest community is so small that
we need to keep everyone we can reach connected in some way, and while
there are new technologies to experiment with and to utilize, I think
that staying accessible to as broad a community as we can is a good
thing. -� Rodger Thorm, Editor]

-----------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: DQ Help please

I hope you don't mind me emailing you.

I chose your name at random from the DQ member list, and hope you can
answer some questions for me reagrding DQ, or point me in the right
direction.

A quick bit of history. I have been role playing since 1977, and am
lucky enough to have DQ 1st and 2nd ed in my collection. However I
have never played it. After reading it I see the most similar game I
have played is Runequest.

However my group want a break from our usual gaming, and want to move
to a fantasy system, and from all of them DQ has been chosen.

So what are my questions ?

They are concerning character creation.

1/ I have read some stories on the internet, it mentions Runesticks.
What are they and where can I find them in the rules.

2/ How does a player become a mage, I can see Healer, Assassin, spy,
etc but no mage.

3/ A spell begins at a certain level, say 45%, how does this get
better ?

4/ Same for weapons, where do i find the increase for each level ?

5/ Any help for a new DQ player ?

Thanks for your indulgence,

Chris Short <chris@zace.demon.co.uk>
Preston, England.

[I replied to Chris with a couple of brief answers and rules references,
plus a couple of websites and a suggestion to check out WebRPG. But I
also said that I would post the letter here and see if I could draw upon
the readership for some further help and guidance. Replies can be
either to the Newsletter or directly to Chris. -� Rodger Thorm, Editor]

-----------------------------------------------------------------
Re: Aging Rules

I would suggest a couple of adjustments to Ted McKelvey's Aging rules
from the last issue (v5n02). Where Ted suggests a potential loss of 2
points for PS, AG and MD at age 45, I would suggest either allowing the
player two rolls (where a character would need to miss 2 rolls to lose 2
points, or would lose 1 point if only one of the rolls was missed) or
else making one of those rolls at age 45 and the other at age 50.

Rodger Thorm <dqn@ntsource.com>


-----------------------------------------------------------------
THE DRAGONQUEST PLAYERS ASSOCIATION UPDATE
-- John Rauchert <john.rauchert@sait.ab.ca>
=================================================================

The Mission of the DragonQuest Players Association (DQPA) is to actively
promote the playing of the DragonQuest Roleplaying Game. This simple
statement masks a huge amount of activity that needs to take place
around it.

As a past, sometime contributor to the DragonQuest Newsletter, I am
always struck by the sense of wonder that a RPG that has been largely
out of print since the early 80�s could survive and thrive on the
Internet, through the work of individuals that truly love this game.

The idea of DQPA began as a chance posting to the DragonQuest Forum at
WebRPG (http://townhall.webrpg.com/index.phtml?groupid=59). I had
noticed that many of us were undertaking projects in isolation,
sometimes repeating work already done. So I commented that we should
form an Association. However, I blame Ax�l Adams (AKA John Carcutt) for
the original inspiration for DQPA.

The most commonly asked question I get is "what are the benefits of
joining DQPA"? Right now, it is more of a case of "ask not what your
association can do for you; ask what you can do for your association".
Still. if I was going to answer this question, I would have to say that
the main benefit you derive from the DQPA is helping ensure that the
players of DragonQuest around the world are able to play this game for
many years to come.

It is NOT the intention of DQPA to replace the good work of individuals
taking place right now. I personally wouldn't want to take over the
running of DQN! What DQPA brings to the table is an international group
of members that are willing to help with these good efforts and the
ability to promote the results to a worldwide audience through our web
site. As well, acting as a single voice the players of DragonQuest will
now be able to lobby in a collective manner for DQ.

As of this article our membership is 62 members from over 7 countries
around the world. I am particularly surprised and happy to see the
response that we have gotten from non-English speaking countries, such
as Argentina, Italy, and Sweden.

Some of the activities that the Association is pursuing are: setting up
a web site to act as a central point for people to come to find out
about DragonQuest Activity on the Internet; developing a promotion
strategy for the DQPA and DQ in general; and finalizing the Association
structure and operation.

We have just registered a domain name dragonquest.org, but currently our
web site is hosted by John Carcutt at http://www.carcutt.com/dqpa where
you can read our draft charter and sign up for membership.

Membership is FREE. All expenses of the Association have currently been
covered through member donations. So there is really no reason not to
sign up!

-- John F. Rauchert
Acting President
DragonQuest Players Association


-----------------------------------------------------------------
SIMPLE SWIMMING SKILL
-- Ransig Thornquell
=================================================================

[This article was posted to the WebRPG site in early January. It isn't
complicated, and may suffice for some GMs needs. I know there are other
versions of swimming skill (including one of the Dragon Magazine
articles). �- Editor]

I don�t recall having seen a �swimming� skill etc.. per se on anything
that I have run across, so I made my own. I feel somewhat qualified to
do this as I was a lifeguard, lifeguard trainer, swimming instructor,
competitive swimmer, scuba diver, and coach (High school and USS
including coaching an olympic caliber swimmer) (she took a gold in the
last good-will games in the ladies triathalon!)

Anyway...

Rank 0 300 exp
can float front and back

Rank 1 200 exp
can kick (flutter... as in front crawl)on front and back

Rank 2 400 exp (beginner level)
can do 2 basic strokes (there are 10, plus modifieds)

Rank 3 600 exp
can tread water for 15 seconds and gains one additional stroke

Rank 4 800 exp (Intermediate level)
can tread water for 30 seconds or for 15 slightly encumbered, and learns
one more stroke

Rank 5 1000 exp
learns two more strokes and treads water for 60 seconds (30 slightly
encumbered)

Rank 6 1200 exp (advanced level)
knows two more strokes and BASIC life saving techniques i.e. how to
assist someone WITHOUT entering the water.

Rank 7 1400 exp
knows all strokes plus modifieds can tread water for 20 min 2-3
encumbered

Rank 8 1700 exp. (lifeguard level)
knows in-water rescues, can swim for hours with out much rest (i.e.
survival strokes) tread water for 60 min, 30 slightly encumbered

Rank 9 2000 exp. (competitive swimmer level)
efficiently swims long and short distances, can swim comfortably in
moderate currents.

Rank 10 2400 exp. (olympic level)
could outrun �jaws�

Swimming
Rank 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10
EXP 300 200 400 600 800 1000 1200 1400 1700 2000 2400

-- Ransig Thornquell


-----------------------------------------------------------------
ARMS AND ARMOUR OF QUALITY
-- Jason Winter <Alarian@uswest.net>
=================================================================

These are my rules for creating weapons and Armour of Quality. All such
weapons made are almost always custom made for the Character in
question. This is especially true for Armour which would have to be
made to custom fit the character. The yes/no in the columns indicates
of such a version of the weapon in question can be made (i.e. a superior
concussion weapon (such as a mace) cannot be made, while a superior
Estoc can). OB stands for Offensive Bonus (+x to a persons strike
chance) Weapons tend to give bonus's to offense, and Armour reduces the
AG modifiers and offers additional protection.

ARMS AND ARMOUR OF QUALITY

Not all weapons and armour are created equal. Some craftsmen are
capable of creating exceptionally fine quality weapons and armour...for
a price. The following tables indicate the types of weapons and armour
that qualify for exceptional benefits. Such weapons and armour,
however, are rarely available "off the shelf." It will be up to the
character to seek out a craftsman capable of producing such high quality
work and commission him to make a weapon or suit of armour.

Weapon Type Lightness Excellent Superior
(Cost x3) (Cost x5) (Cost x20)
(% nml wt) (+5% OB) (+10% OB)
Blade Weapons 80% yes yes
1H Concussion Weapons 80% yes no
(less clubs, cudgels,
and blackjacks)
Flail/Battleaxe 80% yes yes
Mattock 80% yes yes
Polearm 80% yes no

--------------------------------------------------------------
Arrows 80% yes no
Quarrels 80% yes no
Thrown Weapons 70% yes yes
--------------------------------------------------------------
Bows 70% yes yes
Crossbows 70% yes no

==============================================================
Armour Suits Lightness Excellent Superior
(Cost x3) (Cost x8) (Cost x15)
Soft Leather 60% yes yes
Rigid Leather 60% yes yes
Chain 60% yes yes
Plate 50% yes yes

Quality AG MOD Protection
Lightness -1 NONE
Excellent -1 +1
Superior -2 +2
Lt & Sup -3 +2

--------------------------------------------------------------
Shields & Armour Lightness Excellent Superior
(Cost x5) (Cost x5) (Cost x8)
Shields 70%, -1 MD mod +1%/2 Rk +1%/Rk
Leather Helms No -3% PC -5% PC
Metal Helms 75% -8% PC -15% PC
Leather Gauntlets ** NA +1 AG

** Excellent quality leather gauntlets are also 75% light. Superior
quality leather gauntlets are also 50% light.

NOTES: 1) All cost multipliers are cumulative.
2) Production time = base time x ((cost mult/10)+1)
3) Excellent quality items save at +1.
4) Superior quality items save at +2.

NOTES ON ARMOUR AND WEAPONS

The weights for armour for demi-humans should be adjusted as follows:

Halflings x 0.6
Dwarves x 0.75
Gnomes x 0.75
Elves x 0.75
Half Elves x 0.85 (ignore if half elf is human-sized)

Normal shields, when used by halflings, gnomes or dwarves, offer defense
bonuses at one shield class better (i.e. a large round shield offers the
defense bonus of a kite shield while a buckler offers the defense bonus
of a small round shield, etc.).

-- Jason Winter <Alarian@uswest.net>


=================================================================
v5n02 SURVEY RESULTS
-----------------------------------------------------------------
There were fewer responses to this survey than to the last issue's
survey.

Article: Rating (1-5 scale):
Centaur PCs 3.5
Truesilver 3.4
Aging 3.2
Overall 3.8

Comments:
[Centaur PCs] The author forgot to include an XP Multiplier for the
race. [Truesilver] I just stick to the rules on this topic. [Aging] I
typically found that combat/grievous injuries handled the effects of
aging handily. [Overall] I like the idea of reader feedback on
articles. As a contributor, I'd be especially interested in hearing
constructive criticism (as opposed to just a grade of 1-5). {Hopefully
there will be more discussion and feedback on the DQN-list. � Rodger
Thorm}


Resource use:
WebRPG 3.0
IRC 0.2
Yahoo Chat 1.0
Video 0
Newsgroups 2.2
Web Pages 3.2

------------------------ADVERTISEMENTS---------------------------
=================================================================
DQN Subscriptions �- If you aren't on the list, send email with your
name and your email address to: dqn@ntsource.com

=================================================================
DragonQuest URLs:
(If you know of any other DragonQuest related sites, please let us
know.) There is a new page which lists a number of DQ sites at the DQPA
page. This column will probably be phased out over the next few issues
as the DQPA takes hold.

--DQPA Links Page
http://carcutt.com/dqpa/DQSites.html

--DragonQuest Online
http://home.att.net/~aescylus/dq/dragonquest.html
--DragonQuest Resources & Links
http://www.comnet.ca/~jkahane/dq/dq-links.html
--DragonQuest Archive
ftp://ftp.netcom.com/pub/dr/drache
--DragonQuest Newsletter Page
http://www.ntsource.com/~psproefrock/dqn.html
--DragonQuest Home Companion (and other files)
http://www.hoboes.com/pub/Role-Playing/Fantasy/DragonQuest/
--Shannon Appel's RPG Archives (DQ Index)
ftp://ftp.csua.berkeley.edu/pub/rpg-index/dragonquest
--Swordworld
http://www.compendium.org/swordworld/
--Todd Schreiber's DQ Pages
http://www.PlatinumCrown.com/DQ/
--The DragonQuest Homelands
http://www.spaceports.com/~dqhome/
--DragonQuest Page
http://home.earthlink.net/%7Emjoverton/Dragon.html
--The Unofficial DQ Homepage
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Hollow/3362/DRAGON_QUEST/DQ.html
--DragonQuest Fan Page by Snafaru
http://www.iosphere.net/~eric/dq
--DragonQuest WWW Pages
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Portal/7471/DQ/
--Steve's DragonQuest Page
http://user.icx.net/~ssclark/dq.htm
--Atlantis' DQ Pages
http://www.phoenix.org/atlantis/DQfiles/DQMain.shtml
--TW's DragonQuest Page
http://web.dbtech.net/~tware/twdq.htm

--DragonQuest Players Association Page
http://www.carcutt.com/dqpa

Discussion Group Sites
--WebRPG DragonQuest Town Hall
http://townhall.webrpg.com/index.phtml?groupid=59
--DragonQuest Discussion Group
http://assembly.nerdworld.com/assembly.asp?assemblyid=3731


-----------------------------------------------------------------
SURVEY v5n03
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Please do *NOT* quote the whole Newsletter when replying. Only surveys
from subscribers will be tabulated.

1. Your Name/email

2. Please rate the usefulness or interest for you of each article from
this newsletter using a 1-5 scale [0=Did not read] where 1 indicates
useless and 5 indicates extremely useful/interesting:

a. DragonQuest Players Association Update
b. Simple Swimming Skill
c. Arms and Armour of Quality
d. Please rate this issue overall.

3. Do you find the URL listing in the Newsletter useful or repetitive?

4. Are you a member of the DQPA?

###########################################################
### End of DragonQuest Newsletter v5/n03 � March 1999
###########################################################

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Unfortunately, it looks as though you will have to manually delete the whole article you are replying to if you just hit reply.

Posting a new topic in response to an article from the Newsletter is preferable, since it won't require you to go through and delete a lot of stuff.

RT


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There have already been almost 50 subscribers added to this new list. That's a great first step, but now there needs to be some activity here to make it worth your while. I'm posting a couple items here, just to get the ball rolling, but you should all feel free to chime in.

Rodger Thorm
DQN Editor

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dqn@ntsource.com wrote:

> There have already been almost 50 subscribers added to this new list. That's a great first step, but now there needs to be some activity here to make it worth your while. I'm posting a couple items here, just to get the ball rolling, but you should all feel free to chime in.

Heya Everyone. Are there any other folks using DQ in a Greyhawk
campaign setting? I'm also interested in talking with other CC2 users.

Lonny

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Hi All, does anyone have any extra DQ stuff for sale?
thanks in advance Geoff

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>Heya Everyone. Are there any other folks using DQ in a Greyhawk
>campaign setting? I'm also interested in talking with other CC2 users.
>
>Lonny
>

I'm not using Greyhawk anymore, doing my own world for the second time
actually. Did my first back when I used to play AD&D long ago, then I
changed over to Shadow World when that came out (Really liked that setting)
and ran DQ in shadow world the whole time. As of about a year ago, I
decided to venture out on my own again and am creating my own world for the
2nd time. This time it's based on a ring world.

I am also a CC2/DD2 user. Am currently working on the FR Atlas project
just because I had a bit of free time on my hands and it sounded like a
good excuse to make myself take the time to learn how to use CC2.
Jason Winter
Alarian@uswest.net
http://www.darkrealms.com/~alarian/

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Hello to you all. I'd like to invite you all to check out my modest DQ page at http://user.icx.net/~ssclark/dq.htm.

I'm hoping to run a "classic" DQ campaign starting this summer via email and, possibly, the web. There's some info on this on my page.

I'm interested in any comments anyone may have, and also feedback from anyone who may have been involved in pbem or online rpg campaigns.

Steve

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I was just recently contemplating adding a swimming skill to a group of new
characters. I thought of many ways of implementing a skill, but my biggest
concern is the following:

I personally would qualify as a rank 8 swimmer, or possibly even better, the
problem is that I would have qualified this way at 16 years of age or maybe
even younger. Most people, who know how to swim, learned how to swim as
children. Therefore, it seems fairly important to me that characters could
start out with varying degrees of swimming skill. I would like to see a
good set of rules that complement the existing swimming rule to help
determine what swimming Rank characters should start out at. Granted 99% of
people in medieval days did not swim, but those kinds of reality don't
usually translate over into role playing.

I was also planning on playing a Sea Elf, they exist based on the following
reference in DQ 2nd Ed. Section 8 "Heritage" that states "An elven
character, for instance, might be classified as woods, sea, or high elf."
Such an Elf, should have a fairly high rank in swimming at the beginning of
his career. However, so as to not unfairly give this kind of character a
jump when determining ranks for Adventurer or Hero, I suggest making
swimming an ability rather than a skill, with a smaller amount of EXP
required to raise it, possibly similar to the way Perception is raised.

Thanks

Todd


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>
> I personally would qualify as a rank 8 swimmer, or possibly even better, the
> problem is that I would have qualified this way at 16 years of age or maybe
> even younger.

I whole heartedly agree. I don't use the Swimming skill as a skill with
Ranks. When a character is created in my own personal world, they
invariably end up with a hometown. If the hometown is on the coast or a
major river, then they can swim. Otherwise, no. If the character gets into
a mucky situation and wants to swim while encumbered, I just resolve it with
an arbitrary stat check (AG at difficulty 3, or whatever). No one has
bothered to learn how to swim, but I suppose I would just let a PC pick it
up for, oh, 800 xp? I never really felt that swimming was a large enough
portion of the game to warrant a skill for it.


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At 01:01 AM 4/7/99 -0000, you wrote:

>There have already been almost 50 subscribers added to this new list.

That's a great first step, but now there needs to be some activity here to
make it worth your while. I'm posting a couple items here, just to get the
ball rolling, but you should all feel free to chime in.

>
>Rodger Thorm
>DQN Editor
>

Quick Question.

Just wondering if anyone else eliminates double jeopardy for armor: That
is, by the book, you're penalized for the type of armor, and also for its
weight, via penalties to agility. I tend to take the greater of the two,
but not both. Anyone else do something similar?

Phil


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>Hi All, does anyone have any extra DQ stuff for sale?
>thanks in advance Geoff
>

Hi Geoff,

I just posted a new section to the DQPA Link List that is dedicated to
places to buy DQ on the web. There are about 6 links in that section.

You can get there through the main DQPA page at
http://www.carcutt.com/dqpa

Good Hunting!

Ax'l Adams (aka: John Carcutt)
DQPA Member

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Hell no! Agility penalty for armor is based on the armor's inflexibility
and constriction of movement. If you've got a large strength, you don't
necessarily have to even lose Agility due to weight. On the other hand, an
overburdened or weak character will be constricted by the armor mevement
restrictions, as well as by the fact that its just too heavy for him to
wear. All the characters in my campaign avoid wearing anything but leather
because of this. Only time they strap on the improved plate is if they know
they are about to enter heavy combat.



-----Original Message-----

>>
>
>Quick Question.
>
>Just wondering if anyone else eliminates double jeopardy for armor: That
>is, by the book, you're penalized for the type of armor, and also for its
>weight, via penalties to agility. I tend to take the greater of the two,
>but not both. Anyone else do something similar?
>
>Phil
>
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>
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>
>
>

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On Tue, 6 Apr 1999, Lonny Eckert wrote:

> Heya Everyone. Are there any other folks using DQ in a Greyhawk
> campaign setting? I'm also interested in talking with other CC2 users.

I'm running my current campaign in the World of Greyhawk. I
do not use CC2. I chose Greyhawk because I've converted a large
number of old AD&D adventures for use with DQ, and rather than
try to fit them into the Frontiers of Alusia, I decided to just
tweak Greyhawk. It works pretty well.



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I don't. A person might learn to swim, after all. Why assume it has
anything to do with where you were born. If such an argument were
prosecuted even further, you might say that people aren't brought up with
colleges, and therefore don't have any opportunity to acquire them. I'm at
a loss to know why a game is made more interesting by reducing a players
opportunities to develop and increase new abilities.
That is part of the nature of character development.
Jim Arona.


----------

> From: S Cordner <scordner@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca>
> To: dqn-list@egroups.com
> Subject: [dqn-list] Re: Swimming Skill from DQN
> Date: Thursday, April 08, 1999 4:12 AM
>
> >
> > I personally would qualify as a rank 8 swimmer, or possibly even

better, the

> > problem is that I would have qualified this way at 16 years of age or

maybe

> > even younger.
>
> I whole heartedly agree. I don't use the Swimming skill as a skill with
> Ranks. When a character is created in my own personal world, they
> invariably end up with a hometown. If the hometown is on the coast or a
> major river, then they can swim. Otherwise, no. If the character gets

into

> a mucky situation and wants to swim while encumbered, I just resolve it

with

> an arbitrary stat check (AG at difficulty 3, or whatever). No one has
> bothered to learn how to swim, but I suppose I would just let a PC pick

it

> up for, oh, 800 xp? I never really felt that swimming was a large enough
> portion of the game to warrant a skill for it.
>
>
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> Quick Question.
>
> Just wondering if anyone else eliminates double jeopardy for armor: That
> is, by the book, you're penalized for the type of armor, and also for its
> weight, via penalties to agility. I tend to take the greater of the two,
> but not both. Anyone else do something similar?
>
> Phil

Our campaign in Auckland, New Zealand, has been playing DQ for over 17
years, now. We play both penalties. Thus heavy armour reduces your AG a
lot.
Jim Arona.


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On Wed, 07 Apr 1999 16:10:12 -0500, Phil wrote:

>Quick Question.
>
>Just wondering if anyone else eliminates double jeopardy for armor: That
>is, by the book, you're penalized for the type of armor, and also for its
>weight, via penalties to agility. I tend to take the greater of the two,
>but not both. Anyone else do something similar?

I always considered the armor-specific penalty as being to do hinderance
of flexibility and freedom of motion.

- Jamie Coleman jcoleman@a2t.com



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Todd:

We made swimming on par with the Horsemanship skill with a Multiple of 125 and kept it simple.

M. Andre Vancrown

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Phil:

The two groups I work with here in Chicago both apply the armor type as well as the weight of the armor as individual considerations.

M. Andre Vancrown

> Quick Question.
>
> Just wondering if anyone else eliminates double jeopardy for armor: That
> is, by the book, you're penalized for the type of armor, and also for its
> weight, via penalties to agility. I tend to take the greater of the two,
> but not both. Anyone else do something similar?
>
> Phil
>
>

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>I was just recently contemplating adding a swimming skill to a group of new
>characters. I thought of many ways of implementing a skill, but my biggest
>concern is the following:
>
>I personally would qualify as a rank 8 swimmer, or possibly even better, the
>problem is that I would have qualified this way at 16 years of age or maybe
>even younger. Most people, who know how to swim, learned how to swim as
>children. Therefore, it seems fairly important to me that characters could
>start out with varying degrees of swimming skill. I would like to see a
>good set of rules that complement the existing swimming rule to help
>determine what swimming Rank characters should start out at. Granted 99% of
>people in medieval days did not swim, but those kinds of reality don't
>usually translate over into role playing.
>
>I was also planning on playing a Sea Elf, they exist based on the following
>reference in DQ 2nd Ed. Section 8 "Heritage" that states "An elven
>character, for instance, might be classified as woods, sea, or high elf."
>Such an Elf, should have a fairly high rank in swimming at the beginning of
>his career. However, so as to not unfairly give this kind of character a
>jump when determining ranks for Adventurer or Hero, I suggest making
>swimming an ability rather than a skill, with a smaller amount of EXP
>required to raise it, possibly similar to the way Perception is raised.
>
>Thanks
>
>Todd

Hi Todd, Ax'l here,

I am not so sure the ability idea is a good one. I can see where in specific cases (such as your sea elf) this might make sense. But, one of the reasons people learn to swim at an early age is because they haven't yet learned to fear water. As people (or elves) get older it becomes harder for them to learn to swim. But either way it is a skill they are learning and not an ability they are refining. I might be easier to give the entire race of sea elves a large modifier for the swimming skill instead of the ranger skill modification given to other elves. This would allow for quick progression through the rank for the sea elf and keep the skill easily available for other character types.

For those who are interested, here's the Swimming Skill I currently use. It was posted to the WebRPG group by Ransig Thornquell a few months ago.

..... clip .....

I don¹t recall haveing seen a ¹swimming¹ skill etc.. per se on anything that I have run across, so I made my own. I feel somewhat qualified to do this as I was a lifeguard, lifeguard trainer, swimming instructor, competitive swimmer, scuba diver, and coach (High school and USS including coaching a olympic caliber swimmer) (she took a gold in the last good-will games in the ladies tri-athalon!)


Anyway...

Rank 0 300 exp
can float front and back

Rank 1 200 exp
can kick (flutter... as in front crawl)fon front and back

Rank 2 400 exp (beginner level)
can do 2 basic strokes (there are 10 plus modifides)

Rank 3 600 exp
can tread water for 15 seconds and gains one additional stroke

Rank 4 800 exp (Intermediate level)
can tread water for 30 seconds or for 15 slightly encumbered, and learns one more stroke

Rank 5 1000 exp
learns two more strokes and treads water for 60 seconds (30 slightly encumbered)

Rank 6 1200 exp (advanced level)
knows two more strokes and BASIC life saving techniques i.e. how to assist someone WITHOUT entering the water.

Rank 7 1400 exp
knows all strokes plus modifieds can tread water for 20 min 2-3 encumbered

Rank 8 1700 exp. (lifeguard level)
knows in-water rescues, can swim for hours with out much rest (i.e. survival strokes) tread water for 60 min, 30 slightly encumbered

Rank 9 2000 exp. (competitive swimmer level)
efficiently swims long and short distances, can swim comfortabally in moderate currents.

Rank 10 2400 exp. (olympic level)
could outrun ¹jaws¹

enjoy!

..... end clip ....


Good luck!

Ax'l Adams (aka: John Carcutt)
Member DQPA

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I have been almost overwhelmed by the explosion of activity in this
group. Things have taken off much more rapidly than I expected! I
am very glad to see that this is a useful project, and we already
have rules debates underway.

There are a couple of matters I would like to ask some of you to
help with. While I don't expect that it will be a big issue, I
would like to find out whether and how well the unsubscribe features
of eGroups work (and especially how it works for AOL users - I have
seen a couple of things that imply that they may need to be handled
differently). I would like a couple of volunteers to unsubscribe from
the DQN-list using email or the dqn-list web page. (And then, of
course, come back and re-subscribe after a short while!) I don't
need everyone to do this, just one or two people who can help me to
verify that if someone at some point wants to quit this group, they
will be able to. Please email me at dqn-list-owner@eGroups.com rather
than posting to the whole group.

Thanks for your help, and keep posting!

Rodger Thorm
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Phil,
It is not truly a double jeopardy. Each of the two penalties serves to make
adjustments for two different factors: the type of armor is meant set the
minimum penalty possible for using that armor; this effectively makes the use
of these armors cancel certain benefits that could be gained if weight alone
were the factor (a dwarf with a strength of 24, in improved plate armor would
suffer no AG penalty). Second each race has a weight multiplier (halfling:3,
dwarf:4, elf:5, orc:5, human:6, and giant:15), with a further modification for
sex (female:-½); this penaltizes the larger races (which tend to also be
stronger) thereby eliminating the advantage of greater strength and replacing
it with the advantage of being smaller (as with the example of the ant carries
6 times its weight). Without both factors game balance would favor one race for
armored combat.

While I prefer simple bookkeeping. I cannot think of any way to modify these
numbers to gain the same kind of balance.

-- Dennis Nordling

Phil wrote:

> At 01:01 AM 4/7/99 -0000, you wrote:
> >There have already been almost 50 subscribers added to this new list.
> That's a great first step, but now there needs to be some activity here to
> make it worth your while. I'm posting a couple items here, just to get the
> ball rolling, but you should all feel free to chime in.
> >
> >Rodger Thorm
> >DQN Editor
> >
>
> Quick Question.
>
> Just wondering if anyone else eliminates double jeopardy for armor: That
> is, by the book, you're penalized for the type of armor, and also for its
> weight, via penalties to agility. I tend to take the greater of the two,
> but not both. Anyone else do something similar?
>
> Phil
>
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Todd, Our group has been playing DQ for a VERY long time. We found that to much complexity in a rule can hidder play. What we do for additional skills we find a need to include in DQ, is boil it down to what it does and leave the details to the GM to supply for the moment. Swimming (do you drown?) (2AG)+(EN+FT)/2+(5�Rk)+(2�Ranger Rk)+(2�Navigator Rk) EP cost: 500�Rank (simular to Stealth) Running (how fast can you run?) Running Rate = TMR�(1+Rk/4) All characters begin with the skill of Running at Rank 6. This still leaves the basic the Run-Rate as 2��TMR. At Rk 10 this would produce a Run-Rate of 3��TRM. EP cost: 500�Rank (simular to Stealth) Boating (what are the chances of getting out of trouble in a small boat?) (AG+PS)/2+(8�Rk)+(2�Navigator Rk) EP cost: 125�Rank (simular to Horsemanship) Wagon Driver (what are the chances of getting out of trouble with a wagon?) (MD+PS)/2+(8�Rank)+(2�Beast Master Rk)+(2�Horsemanship Rk)-(4�number in team) EP cost: 125�Rank (simular to Horsemanship) We have added many skills in our version of DQ. most of them we haven't even found the need to document in any great detail. What this requires is great faith in the GM who is running your game. -- Dennis Nordling

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Ax'l,

I agree making it an ability doesn't really make sense. My biggest concern
with swimming as a skill is that most people know how to swim near there
peak level by the time they would be adventuring age, or will never learn to
swim. It makes perfect sense as a skill, I just don't like the idea that
players have to start at a fixed level, be it 0 or some other GM determined
number. I like the idea of a random roll with modifiers depending on race
and background. We start all adventurers with exp based on 2nd Edition
rules, we don't give 20,000 exp points at the beginning or anything like
that. The concern with giving people random ranks in swimming is that it
may give people unfair advantage over others with regard to determining
adventurer/hero levels. I don't want to blanket out Swimming skill from
consideration for adventurer/hero in the event that someone actually does
spend hard earned Exp to raise it in rank. So the "swimming skill" becomes
somewhat of a catch-22. Which is what brought me to the idea of making it
an ability. This way, it can be random, and does not affect
adventurer/hero, though it doesn't make much sense as an ability either.
Good suggestions welcomed.

>Hi Todd, Ax'l here,
>
>I am not so sure the ability idea is a good one. I can see where in

specific cases (such as your sea elf) this might make sense. But, one of the
reasons people learn to swim at an early age is because they haven't yet
learned to fear water. As people (or elves) get older it becomes harder for
them to learn to swim. But either way it is a skill they are learning and
not an ability they are refining. I might be easier to give the entire race
of sea elves a large modifier for the swimming skill instead of the ranger
skill modification given to other elves. This would allow for quick
progression through the rank for the sea elf and keep the skill easily
available for other character types.

>
>For those who are interested, here's the Swimming Skill I currently use. It

was posted to the WebRPG group by Ransig Thornquell a few months ago.

>

<snip>


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D. Cameron King wrote:

> I'm running my current campaign in the World of Greyhawk. I
> do not use CC2. I chose Greyhawk because I've converted a large
> number of old AD&D adventures for use with DQ, and rather than
> try to fit them into the Frontiers of Alusia, I decided to just
> tweak Greyhawk. It works pretty well.

Jason Winter wrote:

> I am also a CC2/DD2 user. Am currently working on the FR Atlas project
> just because I had a bit of free time on my hands and it sounded like a
> good excuse to make myself take the time to learn how to use CC2.

Well, I work with a small group of folks working on rendering Greyhawk
maps in CC2. Both ProFantasy and WOTC/TSR are aware of our existance.
We will have a decent start if WOTC decides to contract for a Greyhawk
CD-ROM akin to that being done for the Forgotten Realms.

What does this have with DQ? How much interest would there be in
helping out in doing conversions of Greyhawk moducles and accessories to
DQ stats? Alot of things have to fall into place for this to happen.
This would take quite a bit of effort from individuals who have Greyhawk
materials and can work in PDF format.


Lonny

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I am GMing a group in Australia. We have just begun our first lot of adventures. The last time we played two of the characters suffered a minor curse. I have read the remove curse ritual (84.3 and 84.4) but could not find a cost which a non-PC adept would charge PCs for removing the curse.

Can anyone offer advice as to a fair price removing a minor curse? I was thinking of a figure in the 1000s of SPs. For a major curse the price would be in the 10,000s?



--



=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Ian Bacon

Email: ibacon@cyllene.uwa.edu.au

"Do I contradict myself? Very well then I contradict myself,
I am large, I contain multitudes"
- Walt Whitman
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--------------------------------------------=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

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There have recently been a couple of DQN-list messages that have
been submitted with a lot of garble in them (embedded HTML,
multiple copies of those obnoxious eGroups tags at the end of
each message, etc.) which I have rejected and asked the authors
to clean up and resubmit.

I would like to keep the noise in the messages down for everyone's
benefit. If you would take just a minute to trim down the quoted
message when replying to an earlier posting (we can access old
messages at the DQN-list website) it would be to everyone's
benefit. If nothing else, please remove the tags that eGroups adds
to the end of each message, so that we don't have that piling up at
the end of the message.

Also, be sure that you are sending plain text rather than rich text or
embedded HTML. Otherwise, we get some truly hideous (and
totally unreadable) messages which aren't very useful to anyone.

I would do some rough cutting myself, but as moderator, I can only
accept or reject a message, I can't change or edit (as I can with
the DragonQuest Newsletter). If you do this, you will help make
the DQN-list more useful for all of us.

Rodger Thorm

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On Sun, 11 Apr 1999, Ian Bacon wrote:

> Can anyone offer advice as to a fair price removing a minor curse? I was thinking of a figure in the 1000s of SPs. For a major curse the price would be in the 10,000s?

Section 81 says the upper middle-class income averages between
6000 and 8000 Silver Pennies a year. I would consider a skilled
Adept (as opposed to general members of a College of Magic) to
be roughly equivalent to a modern-day lawyer in terms of social
status; therefore, I would assume such an Adept to be upper
middle-class.

Dividing 8000 Silver Pennies by 50 weeks (call it a year), we
get 400 Silver Pennies per week. Modern man typically works
5 days per week, so that's 80 Silver Pennies a day.

Removing a minor curse takes six hours; major curses require
eighteen hours. A six-hour ritual could fairly be called a
day's work, so I would expect it to cost around 80 Silver
Pennies (not including any expenses). Myself, I'd probably
round that up to 100 even. An 18-hour ritual, however, is
much more than a typical day's work; modern man gets time-
and-a-half for the eight hours after the first eight, and
what is it--triple-time?--for the two hours after THAT.
Call it 24+ hours. That's three full days (at 8 hours a
day), or 240 Silver Pennies. I'd make it 250, in advance,
no refunds.

All of this assumes, of course, that there's enough work
to keep such an Adept busy 5 days a week. That isn't true
for lawyers, and it probably isn't true for professional
Adepts, either. And keep in mind, the local Adept probably
does some "pro bono" work on occasion; doubling or tripling
his fee in light of these facts would not be unfair.

I hope you find this analysis useful as a starting point.
Happy gaming!

* * *

When Benjamin Franklin was on his deathbed,
he was visited by a clergyman, who asked,
"Do you accept the majesty of almighty God?"
Franklin said, "Yes, I do." The clergyman continued,
"Do you renounce Satan and all his works?"
Franklin looked up and said,
"This is not the time for me to be making enemies."


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While astute, in an accountant sort of way, this doesn't help determine
costs of almost anything. This method is not sustainable because it assumes
that the spell caster will have regular work. I seriously doubt that this
will be the case with a spell caster.
If you want to work out how much you want Curse Removal to be, then first
determine how much effort you want players to go to get rid of it, and
assign it a cost that way. If the players hold several thousands of silver
and you want them to be able to get rid of minor curses easily enough, then
fine, say it costs 1,000. If you want it to be harder to get, make it more
expensive, if you want it to be easier, make it less expensive.
Ultimately, the decision is one you, alone, will have to make, and your only
guide will be, which price offers the better game?
Personally, I like the idea of making curse removal expensive and uncommon.
It means that players are pressured into looking for and learning the
ritual, themselves. This may not make sense in your campaign, however, for
one reason or another.
Jim Arona.

>Removing a minor curse takes six hours; major curses require
>eighteen hours. A six-hour ritual could fairly be called a
>day's work, so I would expect it to cost around 80 Silver
>Pennies (not including any expenses). Myself, I'd probably
>round that up to 100 even. An 18-hour ritual, however, is
>much more than a typical day's work; modern man gets time-
>and-a-half for the eight hours after the first eight, and
>what is it--triple-time?--for the two hours after THAT.
>Call it 24+ hours. That's three full days (at 8 hours a
>day), or 240 Silver Pennies. I'd make it 250, in advance,
>no refunds.

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I've been watching this thread on the Swimming skill with some interest. I've always thought that the omission of a Swimming skill from the DQ rules was unfortunate. I don't know about others, but its come up in the campaigns I've been in several times, usually when we were least expecting it. I'm glad to see that someone actually sat down and put together a list of Ranks for Swimming, but I have a few questions. I'm a non-swimmer myself, so my
ignorance is making it difficult to apply the shorthand listings.

First, let me get to the specifics on Ax'l's Swimming Skill.

> Rank 1 200 exp
> can kick (flutter... as in front crawl)fon front and back

What does kicking mean in terms of watery TMR?

> Rank 2 400 exp (beginner level)
> can do 2 basic strokes (there are 10 plus modifides)

What basic strokes are there? What is the meaningful game term difference between using different basic strokes?

> Rank 3 600 exp
> can tread water for 15 seconds and gains one additional stroke

How is treading water different from floating (Rank 0)? What can you do when treading you can't do when floating?

Now for some generalities. What in-water TMR would you apply to the different Ranks (i.e., Rank 10="outrun Jaws" means TMR=Shark TMR+1 ;>)? Do you have any rules (or even suggestions) for how long one can hold one's breath underwater and how far one can dive? I would say swimming in metal armor is impossible, but what's the opinion on swimming in leather or cloth armor? How does Agility, Endurance, Strength affect this Skill?

Sorry to unload in your direction, Ax'l, but your "resume" indicates you're an in-house expert on these matter :), and I'd love to put together some solid game mechanics for this skill. And yes, I am thinking about the 4th ed. for DQPA :D.

Incidentally, I'm definitely in the camp that would call Swimming a Skill, not an Ability. I can see the later argument, but I think it makes far more sense as a Skill. I also feel it should be called an Adventuring skill like Horsemanship and Stealth, but the former always start at Rank 0, whereas it's possible to not know how to swim. I'm tempted to say that it always starts at Rank 0 too, i.e. it's assumed a character can at least float. I base this on the explicit statement in the manual that Adventurers are exceptional individuals a step above the masses and therefore it's reasonable to expect an -Adventurer- always knows how to swim a little, just like he (or she :>) knows how to ride and sneak a little. This is just a personal preference, but what are people's thoughts about this?

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Original Article: http://www.egroups.com/list/dqn-list/?start=11

> I'm hoping to run a "classic" DQ campaign starting this summer via email and, possibly, the web. There's some info on this on my page.
>
> I'm interested in any comments anyone may have, and also feedback from anyone who may have been involved in pbem or online rpg campaigns.
>
> Steve

Well, I haven't been involved in any pbem games, but I do have some experience with online gaming. My group has been using the WebRPG Online program to game for about 8 months now, and we have had reasonable success with it. I don't know if your familiar with this program, but I can tell you a bit more about it if you wish. We have been doing a bit of a combination of e-mail and active online gaming lately, using the email in order to deal with between session and non-tactical activities and leaving the online gaming for when the game progresses to where combat or some sort of directly interactive situation looms. This combination seems most efficient.

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swiles@insti.physics.sunysb.edu wrote:

> First, let me get to the specifics on Ax'l's Swimming Skill.

clip......

> Now for some generalities. What in-water TMR would you apply to the different Ranks (i.e., Rank 10="outrun Jaws" means TMR=Shark TMR+1 ;>)? Do you have any rules (or even suggestions) for how long one can hold one's breath underwater and how far one can dive? I would say swimming in metal armor is impossible, but what's the opinion on swimming in leather or cloth armor? How does Agility, Endurance, Strength affect this Skill?
>
> Sorry to unload in your direction, Ax'l, but your "resume" indicates you're an in-house expert on these matter :), and I'd love to put together some solid game mechanics for this skill. And yes, I am thinking about the 4th ed. for DQPA :D.

It seems you have already put much more thought into this than I have. I
offered the skill listed before to my players as is. I figured if anyone
ever bought the skill, I would flesh it out as needed. But your are
forcing my hand, so let's see what we can do. :-)

Based on the skill as posted in my previous message
(http://www.eGroups.com/list/dqn-list/23.html) and the comments you
made, we can suggest the following abilities of a skilled swimmer.

1. Treading Water (staying afloat in a stationary position)
a. amount of time increases with rank (should probably factor in EN)
b. amount of encumbrance increases with rank (should probably factor in
PS and EN)
c. percentage chance of performing non-combat actions increases with rank
d. combat modifier decreases with rank (example: SC = (SC-20)+2 per
rank with swimming skill)
e. combat initiative modifier decreases with rank (similar to above example)
f. magic modifier decreases with rank (reflects the difficulty in
performing necessary hand gestures while treading water)

2. Swimming (staying afloat while moving in a given direction)
a. A base swimming TMR should be developed for each Character Race
(similar to "movement rates while flying" for Avians)
b. TMR while swimming increases at specific rank levels (IE: +1 at rank
3, rank 6 and rank 9)
c. amount of encumbrance increases with rank (should probably factor in
PS and EN)
d. ability to overcome distance/resistance is increased with rank (swim
farther or against stronger currents)
e. ability to stay submerged increases with rank (should probably
factor in EN)
f. distance under water swimmer is able to reach increases with rank
(should probably factor in PS)
g. altitude a swimmer can safely enter water from increases with rank
(can dive from higher platforms, factor in AG)
h. can learn 1 new stroke per rank (no useful purpose I can see, but
great for character development)

3. Water Rescue (Life Guard skills)
a. chance to retrieve a non-swimmer from the water increases with rank
(should probably factor in PS and AG)
b. picks up specific life saving skills at specific ranks (example:
rank 3 can treat hypothermia, rank 6 knows CPR etc..)

This is all just off the top of my head, DEBATE IS ENCOURAGED. I think
if we all can agree on what swimming is, we can work out the actual
formulas later.

> Incidentally, I'm definitely in the camp that would call Swimming a Skill, not an Ability. I can see the later argument, but I think it makes far more sense as a Skill. I also feel it should be called an Adventuring skill like Horsemanship and Stealth, but the former always start at Rank 0, whereas it's possible to not know how to swim. I'm tempted to say that it always starts at Rank 0 too, i.e. it's assumed a character can at least float. I base this on the explicit statement in the manual that Adventurers are exceptional individuals a step above the masses and therefore it's reasonable to expect an -Adventurer- always knows how to swim a little, just like he (or she :>) knows how to ride and sneak a little. This is just a personal preference, but what are people's thoughts about this?

Agreed, this mirrors the concept of the reply I was composing for Todd
Schreiber's response to my initial post. So excuse me while I combine
responses here. [Sorry for the lengthy post Rodger, but it is in text
format :-)]

>Todd E. Schreiber@platinumcrown.com wrote:

>I agree making it an ability doesn't really make sense. My biggest

concern

>with swimming as a skill is that most people know how to swim near

there

>peak level by the time they would be adventuring age, or will never

learn to

>swim. It makes perfect sense as a skill, I just don't like the idea

that

>players have to start at a fixed level, be it 0 or some other GM

determined

>number. I like the idea of a random roll with modifiers depending on

race

>and background. We start all adventurers with exp based on 2nd Edition
>rules, we don't give 20,000 exp points at the beginning or anything

like

>that. The concern with giving people random ranks in swimming is that

it

>may give people unfair advantage over others with regard to determining
>adventurer/hero levels. I don't want to blanket out Swimming skill

from

>consideration for adventurer/hero in the event that someone actually

does

>spend hard earned Exp to raise it in rank. So the "swimming skill"

becomes

>somewhat of a catch-22. Which is what brought me to the idea of

making it

>an ability. This way, it can be random, and does not affect
>adventurer/hero, though it doesn't make much sense as an ability

either.

>Good suggestions welcomed.

Todd, all of the arguments you have made can be applied to horsemanship
as well, yet it seems to work fine as a skill. The age argument is
almost exactly the same for horseback riding. As for background, if an
adventurer grew up in the country, he or she would have a much greater
chance of being around horses than someone who grew up in the city. As
for race modification, I agree with you there. It would be much harder
for a heavy short limbed Dwarf to swim than it would be for an Elf. See
my comments above about how to handle this (I know the method I used is
base on an ability :-), but I think it will work here as well).
Additionally, your worries about this skill unbalancing the Level
System, I think are unjustified. If a player is only buying the cheapest
skills in order to progress to higher levels faster, I doubt that
character will last long enough to reach the desired levels. If
anything, adding any new skills only makes the players spread their EP
out even thinner, thereby making it even tougher to progress levels. If
you have a player that is taking advantage of the system as described
earlier, I don't think it is the game system that is the true problem.

God I love a good debate, thanks for starting this thread Todd. :-)

Ax'l Adams (aka: John Carcutt)

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On Mon, 12 Apr 1999, Jim Arona wrote:

> While astute, in an accountant sort of way, this doesn't help determine
> costs of almost anything. This method is not sustainable because it assumes
> that the spell caster will have regular work. I seriously doubt that this
> will be the case with a spell caster.

Well, I *did* address the fact that professional Adepts-for-hire would
probably not work every day of the week (or even every week, necessarily).
But that doesn't mean the analysis "doesn't help determine costs of
almost anything." You still have to guesstimate how much work there
is available, how many Adepts are competing for it, and how much the
market is willing to pay...but you know right off the bat that 100,000
Silver Pennies is completely ridiculous, and that 10,000 Silver Pennies
is probably excessive even for a major curse.

> If you want to work out how much you want Curse Removal to be, then first
> determine how much effort you want players to go to get rid of it, and
> assign it a cost that way. If the players hold several thousands of silver
> and you want them to be able to get rid of minor curses easily enough, then
> fine, say it costs 1,000. If you want it to be harder to get, make it more
> expensive, if you want it to be easier, make it less expensive.

Pardon my French, but this is back-asswards. Do you set the price of
a broadsword by first determining how badly the character wants one?
If the players have several thousands of Silver Pennies, does a loaf of
bread cost them more?

> Ultimately, the decision is one you, alone, will have to make, and your only
> guide will be, which price offers the better game?

Obviously, the GM must take into consideration game balance and so
forth. If curses are too easily gotten rid of, they will cease to be
effective. But I understood the original poster to be asking for help
in setting a "realistic" price for a magical service; your advice puts
the ball squarely back in his court.

> Personally, I like the idea of making curse removal expensive and uncommon.

Frankly, I've never had the situation come up in my campaign. So right
there it's "uncommon." As for "expensive," that would depend on how
much loot you're handing out; if the amounts described in Section 81
strike you as penurious, you're probably awarding more treasure than
the archetypal DQ campaign. My players would wince at the notion of
having to cough up 500 or 1000 Silver Pennies, even to get rid of a
nasty case of lycanthropy. ("Really, guys, it's not that bad! Well,
except for the fleas...")

By the way, another factor that might affect the price of curse
removal is the existence of Namers. As I read the rules, Namers can
use a Ritual of Dissipation (Q-1) to get rid of most curses. Even a
less-than-highly-skilled Namer could be pretty effective at removing
curses, and that might drive the price down quite a bit.

So to sum up: I think my analysis is useful *as a starting point*
for setting the price of professional spell-casting (curse removal
or otherwise). The GM must still weigh other factors, however.



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Hi all, does anyone have the playtest copy of Arcane Wisdom that they would
be willing to photocopy for me?
--Geoff Berman

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I thank the people who have replied to my request for info on the cost of a remove minor curse ritual.

I played the scenario and charged in excess of Cameron King's advice. I tend to inflate the amt of money that my PCs can aquire thus this was an opportunity to bring them down a few thousand.

In the future I may decrease the amt of money my PCs win. This would allow me to be more faithful to the Book.


--



=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
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Email: ibacon@cyllene.uwa.edu.au

"Do I contradict myself? Very well then I contradict myself,
I am large, I contain multitudes"
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I totally agree with you in regard to horsemanship. I was working on a plan
that would allow characters to select a few ranks worth of skills like
horsemanship, climbing, and swimming for free when created. Maybe I'll just
reduce it to 2 ranks, players choice, can only choose swimming or horseback.
Experience will be the same for both, and character background should be
used to determine which skill is selected. This doesn't really make up for
the fact that many people could be highly skilled at horsemanship or
swimming long before adulthood, but I've played in the past with the
existing horsemanship skills. Makes me rethink how I'm going to start a
group of characters.

Have fun

>
>Todd, all of the arguments you have made can be applied to horsemanship
>as well, yet it seems to work fine as a skill. The age argument is
>almost exactly the same for horseback riding. As for background, if an
>adventurer grew up in the country, he or she would have a much greater
>chance of being around horses than someone who grew up in the city. As
>for race modification, I agree with you there. It would be much harder
>for a heavy short limbed Dwarf to swim than it would be for an Elf. See
>my comments above about how to handle this (I know the method I used is
>base on an ability :-), but I think it will work here as well).
>Additionally, your worries about this skill unbalancing the Level
>System, I think are unjustified. If a player is only buying the cheapest
>skills in order to progress to higher levels faster, I doubt that
>character will last long enough to reach the desired levels. If
>anything, adding any new skills only makes the players spread their EP
>out even thinner, thereby making it even tougher to progress levels. If
>you have a player that is taking advantage of the system as described
>earlier, I don't think it is the game system that is the true problem.
>
>God I love a good debate, thanks for starting this thread Todd. :-)
>
>Ax'l Adams (aka: John Carcutt)
>
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In the past I've used a method where the player decides what type of
environment their character is from, and an appropriate transportation
skill with a couple of Ranks is given.

Ie If a charater is from an arctic setting, then they would get something
like skiing , kayaking, or dogsledding. A character near water might get a
rank in swimming and a rank in boat handling.

The advantage, IMO, is that it makes the player put some thought into their
character's background instead of playing a bunch of numbers.

I also admit to being fairly generous when handing out starting skills!

Russell


At 11:49 AM 4/14/99 -0400, you wrote:

>I totally agree with you in regard to horsemanship. I was working on a plan
>that would allow characters to select a few ranks worth of skills like
>horsemanship, climbing, and swimming for free when created. Maybe I'll just
>reduce it to 2 ranks, players choice, can only choose swimming or horseback.
>Experience will be the same for both, and character background should be
>used to determine which skill is selected. This doesn't really make up for
>the fact that many people could be highly skilled at horsemanship or
>swimming long before adulthood, but I've played in the past with the
>existing horsemanship skills. Makes me rethink how I'm going to start a
>group of characters.
>
>Have fun
>
>>
>>Todd, all of the arguments you have made can be applied to horsemanship
>>as well, yet it seems to work fine as a skill. The age argument is
>>almost exactly the same for horseback riding. As for background, if an
>>adventurer grew up in the country, he or she would have a much greater
>>chance of being around horses than someone who grew up in the city. As
>>for race modification, I agree with you there. It would be much harder
>>for a heavy short limbed Dwarf to swim than it would be for an Elf. See
>>my comments above about how to handle this (I know the method I used is
>>base on an ability :-), but I think it will work here as well).
>>Additionally, your worries about this skill unbalancing the Level
>>System, I think are unjustified. If a player is only buying the cheapest
>>skills in order to progress to higher levels faster, I doubt that
>>character will last long enough to reach the desired levels. If
>>anything, adding any new skills only makes the players spread their EP
>>out even thinner, thereby making it even tougher to progress levels. If
>>you have a player that is taking advantage of the system as described
>>earlier, I don't think it is the game system that is the true problem.
>>
>>God I love a good debate, thanks for starting this thread Todd. :-)
>>
>>Ax'l Adams (aka: John Carcutt)
>>
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-----Original Message-----
From: D. Cameron King <hacking@ucdavis.edu>

>> If you want to work out how much you want Curse Removal to be, then first
>> determine how much effort you want players to go to get rid of it, and
>> assign it a cost that way. If the players hold several thousands of

silver

>> and you want them to be able to get rid of minor curses easily enough,

then

>> fine, say it costs 1,000. If you want it to be harder to get, make it

more

>> expensive, if you want it to be easier, make it less expensive.
>
>Pardon my French, but this is back-asswards. Do you set the price of
>a broadsword by first determining how badly the character wants one?
>If the players have several thousands of Silver Pennies, does a loaf of
>bread cost them more?

Possibly, I may have been in unclear. I shall try and elucidate, then. If
you want something like Curse Removal to be less common in your game, then
make it more expensive. If you want it to be more common, make it less
expensive.

>
>> Ultimately, the decision is one you, alone, will have to make, and your

only

>> guide will be, which price offers the better game?
>
>Obviously, the GM must take into consideration game balance and so
>forth. If curses are too easily gotten rid of, they will cease to be
>effective. But I understood the original poster to be asking for help
>in setting a "realistic" price for a magical service; your advice puts
>the ball squarely back in his court.

The ball has never left his court, it was always there. A GM must take
responsibility for his game.

>
>> Personally, I like the idea of making curse removal expensive and

uncommon.

>
>Frankly, I've never had the situation come up in my campaign. So right
>there it's "uncommon." As for "expensive," that would depend on how
>much loot you're handing out; if the amounts described in Section 81
>strike you as penurious, you're probably awarding more treasure than
>the archetypal DQ campaign. My players would wince at the notion of
>having to cough up 500 or 1000 Silver Pennies, even to get rid of a
>nasty case of lycanthropy. ("Really, guys, it's not that bad! Well,
>except for the fleas...")

Then, that is fine in your game. I have been playing DQ for 19 years in an
ongoing, multi DM environment. Players can eventually accrue huge hoards of
loot. We set our prices higher, as a result of that, I suppose.

>
>By the way, another factor that might affect the price of curse
>removal is the existence of Namers. As I read the rules, Namers can
>use a Ritual of Dissipation (Q-1) to get rid of most curses. Even a
>less-than-highly-skilled Namer could be pretty effective at removing
>curses, and that might drive the price down quite a bit.
>

No, they cannot Dissipate Curses. Curses must be Removed with the
aforementioned Ritual.

>So to sum up: I think my analysis is useful *as a starting point*
>for setting the price of professional spell-casting (curse removal
>or otherwise). The GM must still weigh other factors, however.

In this case, the GM doesn't need to think about anything other than 'How
much do I want the players to have access to Curse Removal?' and set a
price, that way.



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>
>Then, that is fine in your game. I have been playing DQ for 19 years in an
>ongoing, multi DM environment. Players can eventually accrue huge hoards of
>loot. We set our prices higher, as a result of that, I suppose.
>

19 years, that's impressive, were you a play tester? My 15 years must make
me a rank novice. I've got players that were somewhat involved in the
slaying of a couple of dragons. (it was a long campaign in which they
actually had little to do with the slaying of the dragon itself, not unlike
"The Hobbit". In any even they got a good share of the dragon's hoard, and
they invested some of that money into an Inn, which turns little in the way
of profit. Either way, its not really fare to just start charging them
steep prices because they have a lot of money.

Removing a curse wouldn't be much more than a thought for them. However,
people with money, especially characters, find a way to spend it. They
spent a small fortune on griffons, and have money to spend on raising a
small army if they like, which just may happen in the near future. They
also tend to find money and valuables during the course of adventuring, so
don't let money be the issue. If you want a curse to stick, set a specific
method in which it must be removed. In a Multi DM environment, you could
charge a ton of money for a curse removal in one adventure, and the next DM
could give the service away for free in the next adventure. Money is hardly
the issue. If they are a group of "do gooders" they might find someone
willing to help them very easily. If they are kind of underhanded, make it
that no one is willing to help them out, for any amount of money.

My $.02.





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One thing to be carful of when setting curse prices high is that Player Characters can cash in... This could throw a campagns balence out.



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On Thu, 15 Apr 1999, Jim Arona wrote:

> >By the way, another factor that might affect the price of curse
> >removal is the existence of Namers. As I read the rules, Namers can
> >use a Ritual of Dissipation (Q-1) to get rid of most curses. Even a
> >less-than-highly-skilled Namer could be pretty effective at removing
> >curses, and that might drive the price down quite a bit.

> No, they cannot Dissipate Curses. Curses must be Removed with the
> aforementioned Ritual.

Would you care to cite a rule or some other source of authority
for that? I just re-read 39Q-1 and all of Section 84, and I see
nothing therein to suggest that a Ritual of Dissipation would be
ineffective.


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One way to address the issue of hero levels is to change th level system. I use a system where the *party* change levels together, scoring points for success and points for cleverstuff/good roleplaying/making sacrefices that are "in character".


The concern with giving people random ranks in swimming is that
it

>may give people unfair advantage over others with regard to determining
>adventurer/hero levels.

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Ah-ha! Finally a decent suggestion! It could be used within reason of
course, based on party average or something like that. Would make high
level characters sacrifice if they brought a low level with them, and a low
level would get to learn at a greater rate, by "watching how the masters do
it"

>One way to address the issue of hero levels is to change th level system.

I use a system where the *party* change levels together, scoring points for
success and points for cleverstuff/good roleplaying/making sacrefices that
are "in character".

>
>
>The concern with giving people random ranks in swimming is that
>it
>>may give people unfair advantage over others with regard to determining
>>adventurer/hero levels.
>
>
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-----Original Message-----
From: David Mason <MasonD@ames.vic.edu.au>

>One thing to be carful of when setting curse prices high is that Player

Characters can cash in... This could throw a campagns balence out.

>
>

True. But, they have to learn the Ritual, and Rank it. It's an expensive
Ritual to Rank (EM 500) and requires expensive equipment (various metal
triangles).
Considering that they would have to forego Ranking other forms of
advancement, I don't know that I'd worry too much.

>
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-----Original Message-----
From: D. Cameron King <hacking@ucdavis.edu>
To: dqn-list@egroups.com <dqn-list@egroups.com>
Date: Thursday, April 15, 1999 2:03 PM
Subject: [DQN-list] Namers and curse removal (was: minor curse removal cost)

>On Thu, 15 Apr 1999, Jim Arona wrote:
>
>> >By the way, another factor that might affect the price of curse
>> >removal is the existence of Namers. As I read the rules, Namers can
>> >use a Ritual of Dissipation (Q-1) to get rid of most curses. Even a
>> >less-than-highly-skilled Namer could be pretty effective at removing
>> >curses, and that might drive the price down quite a bit.
>
>> No, they cannot Dissipate Curses. Curses must be Removed with the
>> aforementioned Ritual.
>
>Would you care to cite a rule or some other source of authority
>for that? I just re-read 39Q-1 and all of Section 84, and I see
>nothing therein to suggest that a Ritual of Dissipation would be
>ineffective.

A Ritual of Dissipation may only remove spells that are cast from the
General or Special Knowledge of a College (ref. 39.5 Ritual of
Dissipation:...In order to perform the Ritual, the Namer must know the exact
name of the spell that was cast over the character, what College the spell
was a part of, and whether or not the spell was General or Special
Knowledge.
Therefore, a spell like Curse, which has no College, and indeed can be
taught by any Adept who has reached Rank 6 in it, does not have a particular
College for it to belong to.
Further, this implies that Namers can't Dissipate the effects of backfires,
except where that spell was an inappropriately targetted one. Then, the
spell can be Dissipated. They cannot Dissipate a simple reverse affect,
because that has no spell name.
However, this is just toying with rules. The real question is whether or not
you want anyone to be able to get rid of curses by having a Namer Dissipate
them.
I believe that such a situation would reduce the range of variation within
the game. A Namer would quickly become critical to the game, since they can
Dissipate spells and Curses, and potentially backfire effects.
Where possible, it is better to have a game offer wider alternatives than to
lump everything under one flag, and say they (in this case Namers) can deal
with it.



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-----Original Message-----
From: Todd E. Schreiber <schreib@platinumcrown.com>

>19 years, that's impressive, were you a play tester? My 15 years must make
>me a rank novice.

No. Just played for a long time, I suppose.

>I've got players that were somewhat involved in the
>slaying of a couple of dragons. (it was a long campaign in which they
>actually had little to do with the slaying of the dragon itself, not unlike
>"The Hobbit". In any even they got a good share of the dragon's hoard, and
>they invested some of that money into an Inn, which turns little in the way
>of profit. Either way, its not really fare to just start charging them
>steep prices because they have a lot of money.

I don't think it's a question of fairness. It's a question of what the DM
thinks makes for a better game. If, in your opinion as a DM, you think it
would be better for it to be harder to come by, then you should make it more
expensive. If you don't think it makes for a better game, it make it
cheaper.

>
>Removing a curse wouldn't be much more than a thought for them. However,
>people with money, especially characters, find a way to spend it. They
>spent a small fortune on griffons, and have money to spend on raising a
>small army if they like, which just may happen in the near future. They
>also tend to find money and valuables during the course of adventuring, so
>don't let money be the issue. If you want a curse to stick, set a specific
>method in which it must be removed. In a Multi DM environment, you could
>charge a ton of money for a curse removal in one adventure, and the next DM
>could give the service away for free in the next adventure.

This is a concern, but not a big one. Much of the nuts and bolts of the game
are handled in monthly 'Gods Meetings', where we decide things of that
nature. We keep a loose hand on the campaign in that way. There are set
prices for services of that nature, and we try to keep the game within those
boundaries. But, we're not too fussed if the occasional DM steps out of
them. If it's a bit of a habit then we might want to know why it was
happening, I suppose. I haven't really noticed it as being any kind of
concern.
As for DMs handing out heaps of treasure on one campaign, and there hardly
being any on another, again, I don't that it's much of a concern. We find
that in general, players tend to average out with the same kind of income,
over the long haul, and since there are characters around who have been
playing since the first of these games was started, way back in '79, the
long view is the one try to look for.

> Money is hardly
>the issue. If they are a group of "do gooders" they might find someone
>willing to help them very easily. If they are kind of underhanded, make it
>that no one is willing to help them out, for any amount of money.

This is the only real concern I have within our campaign. There is little
game pressure toward idealistic or altruistic behaviour. Success is the
measure of how 'cool' a character. There is a developing trend away from
that attitude, and I believe that it would be usefully supported by a
coherent and accessible religious structure.
Sadly, DQ provides almost no material on religious matters, aside from a few
notes in a couple of modules about the Powers of Light, and the whole of the
Greater Summoners College (the negative, if you will).
Does anyone allows players to be Greater Summoners, by the way?

>
>My $.02.

I raise you $.02.



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Attachments :

Hey there all. Just returned from my vacation and saw the new DQ list. Glad to see things progressing so rapidly with the game. I see quite a few familiar names. Lonny, you already know of my project, although it isn't WOG there is one DQ PBEM game there and one AD&D game. Things are going well if not a little sporadic lately. Hope to debate and create with you all.

Paul Pishnak

-----Original Message-----
From: Lonny Eckert
Sent: Tuesday, April 06, 1999 10:13 PM
To: dqn-list@egroups.com
Subject: [dqn-list] Re: First Thread

dqn@ntsource.com wrote:

> There have already been almost 50 subscribers added to this new list. That's a great first step, but now there needs to be some activity here to make it worth your while. I'm posting a couple items here, just to get the ball rolling, but you should all feel free to chime in.

Heya Everyone. Are there any other folks using DQ in a Greyhawk
campaign setting? I'm also interested in talking with other CC2 users.

Lonny

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On Thu, 15 Apr 1999, Jim Arona wrote:

> A Ritual of Dissipation may only remove spells that are cast from the
> General or Special Knowledge of a College (ref. 39.5 Ritual of
> Dissipation:...In order to perform the Ritual, the Namer must know the exact
> name of the spell that was cast over the character, what College the spell
> was a part of, and whether or not the spell was General or Special
> Knowledge.
> Therefore, a spell like Curse, which has no College, and indeed can be
> taught by any Adept who has reached Rank 6 in it, does not have a particular
> College for it to belong to.

An excellent analysis; thank you. However, you are assuming that
spells like Major Curse are of *no* College rather than *every*
College. I have always assumed it to be the other way around: a
Major Curse cast by a Fire Adept is a Special Knowledge Spell of
the College of Fire Magics, while a Major Curse cast by an Earth
Adept is a Special Knowledge Spell of the College of Earth Magics.
I base this assumption on 32.3, which says (in part): "Only those
individuals who know the Investment Ritual OF THE COLLEGE that was
used to store the spell..." This seems to imply that each College
has a separate and distinct Investment Ritual, and thus a separate
and distinct Warding Ritual, Remove Curse Ritual, Major Curse
Spell, and so on. Hence, a Namer could determine (through 39R-1)
the exact name of the spell (Major Curse), what College the spell
was a part of (whatever College the Adept who cast it was a member
of), and whether it was General or Special Knowledge (Special).

By the way, I'm not aware of any rule stating that a character
must have Rank 6 or better in a spell or ritual to teach it; 87.4
says only that "the character must pay (200 x Ordinal Number)
Silver Pennies to an Adept who knows the spell." Perhaps you
are thinking of a house rule?

> Further, this implies that Namers can't Dissipate the effects of backfires,
> except where that spell was an inappropriately targetted one. Then, the
> spell can be Dissipated. They cannot Dissipate a simple reverse affect,
> because that has no spell name.

I would agree that Namers cannot dissipate backfire curses (results
above 61). A reversed effect (26-45) is quite a different matter:
a Spell of Fireproofing which backfires and takes effect upon the
caster rather than the intended target is still a Spell of Fire-
proofing. The reason Namers cannot dissipate backfire curses is
not because they have no name, but because they are not the "effects
of a spell cast over an individual or object" (39Q-1), but simply
the results of a botched attempt to cast a spell.

> However, this is just toying with rules. The real question is whether or not
> you want anyone to be able to get rid of curses by having a Namer Dissipate
> them.

Agreed. As I said before, the situation has never come up in any
of my campaigns. (We once had a major curse turn a PC into a monkey,
but the character happened to be brand-new, so his player decided to
simply roll up another.) If it did, I probably wouldn't allow it to
work on Major Curses. I was merely pointing out that there's nothing
in the official rules which prohibits Namers from doing so.

> I believe that such a situation would reduce the range of variation within
> the game. A Namer would quickly become critical to the game, since they can
> Dissipate spells and Curses, and potentially backfire effects.

It really changes very little, unless you have a curse-intensive game
world. Frankly, in our world nobody ever wants to be a Namer because
they tend to be such one-trick wonders.

> Where possible, it is better to have a game offer wider alternatives than to
> lump everything under one flag, and say they (in this case Namers) can deal
> with it.

It's funny you should say that, because to me it seems that the
"wider alternative" offered would be to allow for Namers dissipating
curses *as well as* other Adepts removing them. That's one of the
things I love about DQ, actually--there's rarely only one way of
solving a problem.



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